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What are **YOU** doing to help GRiN's sales


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OK. This post will no doubt get some reactions - both ways.

But alteast give me the courtesy to read it through and consider the position before you slap it down ...

All games to me live on either one side or the other of a line ....

1. The side that says "I'm glad i bought it and you should too"

2. The side that says "Tell everyone you know to stay away"

GRAW1 and GRAW2, for me, is clearly on the side of "BUY THIS GREAT GAME"

now ofcourse it still has some issues we all want to see fixed, altered, updated etc. For me, my pet peave is the lack of human to human order system in camapign coop. to you, it might be hte lack of a server side option to control weapons available on a server.......

So lets boil this down to the bottom line....

What stands between us and 6 months (or more) of vigorous support and patches and new content and maybe even an add-on product??? Isn't it obvious? SALES. TOTAL UNITS SOLD WORLDWIDE.

So I emplore each of you to pick your side of the line. I'm not suggesting you declare it in this post. I'm just suggesting that you recognize this simple reality. and if you can, in good faith, recommend it to your friends for purchase at full price, then you do so with conviction. That you tell everyone who you think might consider this game to go ahead and buy it.

In other words, if you want to see GRiN take this game as far as it can go in the patch cycle, and if you want to see the patch cycle last a long time, then each of us have a responsability to pick our side and act accordingly. and if you pick the side that agrees with me (that this game deserves to be bought), then let's assist GRiN in making this an overall winner. Let's support the very genre we love and that we worry might be going extinct.

In other words, I think we, as consumers, can help ourselves by helping GRiN. its not entirely an altruisitic idea. It has a selfish component. Most win-win ideas have both of these elements. If you believe in GRiN, and this product, and this Genre, then you can help.

And no. I don't work for GRiN. I'm just a realistic player who wants to see GRiN succeed so that we can get what we want this time and yet again another time.... know what I mean?

Last thought. If GRiN succeeds, so does Blackfoot studios. It will give them the pump they need also to see that the market for this sort of game is larger than they and their supporters thought. so they are likely to take it farther as well....... and we can help develop healthy competition in the genre....

Edited by Sleepdoc
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I have to disagree with you some. For me GRAW 1 was a big NO,NO. Was a waste of money and the reason our 30+ team loose some valuable members. GRAW2 on the other hand is way better that GRAW1 and I'm happy I bought it. I personally bought 3 copies so far. One for me and the other 2 for members of our clan that are serving this country overseas(Rabbi and Sinister). If this game was the first one, instead of the first GRAW, Grin would be consider a top notch game developer. I which some things would have been keep from G1, like the weapon customization, premade kits suck, but this is just my opinion.

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as im mainly a typical singleplayer-gamer with some coop-play now and then, i enjoyed both of the games: graw1 and 2. i clearly encourage people to buy the game when they are interested in a top notch tac-shooter.

i bought both of the games at the release date and would buy a graw3 or any expansion pack to graw2 if ubisoft/grin would bring that on the table.

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Retlaw' date='Jul 28 2007, 04:35 PM' post='482019']

I have to disagree with you some. For me GRAW 1 was a big NO,NO. Was a waste of money and the reason our 30+ team loose some valuable members. GRAW2 on the other hand is way better that GRAW1 and I'm happy I bought it. I personally bought 3 copies so far. One for me and the other 2 for members of our clan that are serving this country overseas(Rabbi and Sinister). If this game was the first one, instead of the first GRAW, Grin would be consider a top notch game developer. I which some things would have been keep from G1, like the weapon customization, premade kits suck, but this is just my opinion.

I respect your position Retlaw. But did you make this call before version 1.35 or after? I thought the initial release of GRAW1 was stunted, bt I thought 1.35 was a classic and still play it today ...

but independant of our feelings about GRAW1, I want people to consider that by buying GRAW1, we made it to GRAW2. in the minds og some, they paid $100 for GRAW2. Not in my mind, but in the mind of some. It took GRAW1 to get to GRAW2. And now we have something that given enough sales, might get supported to a level that makes it a wonderful thing for a long time to come. it starts with mod tools. then some hard coded patches.

Would i have paid $100 for GRAW2? No comment. But I didn't have to. I got a ton of value out of GRAW1 in route to GRAW2. I'm sorry you didn't. But GRiN's support on GRAW1 was nothing short of spectacular.

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To tell the truth I would tell no one to buy this game (atleast not yet) and I understand your point of GRIN needing big sales in order to provide the support for the game but I look at it like this. Maybe if they would have made the game right the first time we would not need major support like this. I understand that no matter what there will always be issues in any game that are missed in development but the issues we are seeing in this game are just to huge to let slide. I just hope that GRIN step’s up and comes out with a patch that fix’s most of the issues soon or else I feel that it will be very hard if not impossible to recover from this blunder.

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To tell the truth I would tell no one to buy this game (atleast not yet) and I understand your point of GRIN needing big sales in order to provide the support for the game but I look at it like this. Maybe if they would have made the game right the first time we would not need major support like this. I understand that no matter what there will always be issues in any game that are missed in development but the issues we are seeing in this game are just to huge to let slide. I just hope that GRIN step’s up and comes out with a patch that fix’s most of the issues soon or else I feel that it will be very hard if not impossible to recover from this blunder.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

I do not view GRAW2 as a Blunder at all. Not even close. To me it gets an 84% with room to grow if the patches come out right.

I do not know how serious you are of a passionate Tac-sim fan. But i feel taking such a position on a product as good as GRAW2 (IMHO, obviously not yours) is only to punish yourself and the Genre we all love. You may be shooting yourself in the foot.

but I respect your position. It is just not my position.

Edited by Sleepdoc
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The thing that bought me to playing the original GR game was the coop. A few of us in our mirc channel would play all night long. There was no other worth playing. So when GRAW was announced I was so pleased, back to coop with the lads. GRAW2 and still no regrets buying it, best option added from GRAW1 is the ability to pickup weapons, big plus. I still play GRAW1 every now and then and gave it a big hammering after I got bored of TDM on the GRAW2 demo. Im not a TDM player really, but there wasnt any coop. When I loadup GRAW2 I first check for coop servers which have people on, if none or very few I play tdm reluctantly. GRAW2 is about coop for me and I appreciate GRiN for making it as there still is no other game worth playing c00p. Only thing I want in the future is another kingpin bagman, if only...........

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Retlaw' date='Jul 28 2007, 04:35 PM' post='482019']

I have to disagree with you some. For me GRAW 1 was a big NO,NO. Was a waste of money and the reason our 30+ team loose some valuable members. GRAW2 on the other hand is way better that GRAW1 and I'm happy I bought it. I personally bought 3 copies so far. One for me and the other 2 for members of our clan that are serving this country overseas(Rabbi and Sinister). If this game was the first one, instead of the first GRAW, Grin would be consider a top notch game developer. I which some things would have been keep from G1, like the weapon customization, premade kits suck, but this is just my opinion.

I respect your position Retlaw. But did you make this call before version 1.35 or after? I thought the initial release of GRAW1 was stunted, bt I thought 1.35 was a classic and still play it today ...

but independant of our feelings about GRAW1, I want people to consider that by buying GRAW1, we made it to GRAW2. in the minds og some, they paid $100 for GRAW2. Not in my mind, but in the mind of some. It took GRAW1 to get to GRAW2. And now we have something that given enough sales, might get supported to a level that makes it a wonderful thing for a long time to come. it starts with mod tools. then some hard coded patches.

Would i have paid $100 for GRAW2? No comment. But I didn't have to. I got a ton of value out of GRAW1 in route to GRAW2. I'm sorry you didn't. But GRiN's support on GRAW1 was nothing short of spectacular.

The problem with this was that many people stop playing the game before any patches. We have 3 guys that where so pist that they never play the game again and 2 of those still not play GR1 or had bought GR2. I think GRIN made a big blunder releasing G1 when they did. After the patch the game was better but not a great game or a must have game. G2 on the other hand, is good from the get go, but still is not as good as the original. The problem here is this, there is an original game that was the game of the year and it was greatly modable. If grin is smart, they will support modders and concentrate on expansion packs with new maps, weapons and game types. They will still make money and the support will keep players coming back. I bought the 2 expansion pack for the original and would had bought a third one if they released. What will keep the game going is maps, mods and great support from the developer. I hope we get all 3.

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I would have to say that overall, we all want the [GR] feel and play of GRAW2. That's impossible as the devs for each game are different. When a game starts out, there's huge meetings between UBI and Grin in this case and storyboards are done up for it to give UBI and Grin an idea of how to mutually go ahead with the game. The storyline, then there had to be an example done on part of Grin to show Ubisoft the technology(game engine) it was going to use for GRAW/GRAW2.

Now that being said, I think someone who had an inclination about gaming, perhaps a gamer should've been present to put in a gamers point of view to give feedback on what a gamer looks for in a game. Hence a lot of issues were raised about why deffered lighting? Why not AA? I know I wasn't there but it seems by all tense and purposes something I would've asked about, had I been at the meeting.

Now to the game engine. Is it capable of doing the job? I know that the diesel engine is Grin's own baby and the Diesel 6 engine(GRAW) and the Diesel 7 engine(GRAW2), are completely different in that GRAW2's Diesel engine 7 got a lot of the bloat out of the motor. It runs a lot smoother.

I do applaud Grin for their complete immersion is listening to us about bugs, crashes and the like and have truly achieved the best PR that all companies need to achieve. One suggestion I'd give as a customer to Grin would be: drop the deffered lighting from the diesel Game engine and adopt a fashion of development that allows for smooth edges on buildings. Post effects doesn't seem to be a blessing. More or less a disability.

We can't expect GR to follow along with GRAW/GRAW2. But I'd also suggest that Grin adopt a unit that is a multi-national force, Swedes, US, French, Belgium, Germany and so on.

And above all else..MODDING! A game will fail if users can't modify a game by adding custom content and maps. It will get boring. But the way modding went for GRAW, it should be a HUGE indication that modding shouldn't be soo complex a task that people shun it and walk away to another game. not that, that hasn't happened mind you.

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The problem with this was that many people stop playing the game before any patches.

yup. I read the posts. i was here throughout the "saga". Their loss IMHO. but I see how it happened. i'm just more patient. I always look back after patches. its just common sense considering the history of PC gaming as a whole.

I think GRIN made a big blunder releasing G1 when they did.

I'm sure you know that GRiN probably had little to do with that decision. the publishers typically bear the burden of the burn rate and determine their own release dates. The typical battle is between devs who want more time and pubs who demand a release date. So that comment may be off target ....

After the patch the game was better but not a great game or a must have game.

For me it was a must have. And for anyone who loves coop, its a must have (IMHO). Its also a great SP game. wait? I loved TDM too. and BTW. domination was a ton of fun. oh well..... such are the diversity of opinions ...

G2 on the other hand, is good from the get go, ....

Well. Now we have found common ground ....

If grin is smart, they will support modders and concentrate on expansion packs with new maps, weapons and game types. They will still make money and the support will keep players coming back.

We remain on the same page .... especially the mod part ... the exansion part will depend, at least in part, on total sales. Becuase explansions always sell less than the original ... so back to my original post ... :rocky:

I bought the 2 expansion pack for the original and would had bought a third one if they released. What will keep the game going is maps, mods and great support from the developer. I hope we get all 3.

Me too. Me too. :yes:

Edited by Sleepdoc
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Well I already bought the game unfortunately to help their sales. Should've waited until another patch was released. But then again, I wouldn't be able to tell them that my game crashes now that I updated my GeForce 7950 GT 512 videocard drivers. Updated em last night and it crashes. Oh sure setting the dynamic shadows to low or off works but the thing is their recommended videocards are 512 which is what I have. And I can't enjoy my dynamic shadows now. Set it to low and it looked like one big crappy shadow so I just turned em off and yay no more shadows. And it could also be the fact that in Campaign COOP online the enemy has the skill level of Delta and SEAL Team 6 crammed in one. Or it could be the fact that I can't see the diamonds spotted by my teeammates and the drone. Or the fact that I can't bring up the tactical map as a squad member. And no I'm not running Vista. I'm running XP. I can play BF 2142 with no problems at all. GRAW1 has something funky going on with the lighting. Kinda looks like I'm in a disco room. So I think I'd lean towards the side of don't buy this game at the moment until a patch fixes the major issues we're dealing with. And I could care less if you agree or disagree with me cause I'm never gonna come back to read this post again. May be small issues to you but to me and Savior, they're huge. Especially the tactical map and red diamonds issue cause it's like knock knock who's there trick or treat I'm the point man. So what am I doing to help GRIN's sales? Not buying any of their games in the future unless they come out with a super duper extravaganza patch that makes me jump up in the air afterwards and click my heels together. But what am I doing to ease the pain? I push my fingers into my eyes cause it's the only thing that slowly stops the ache.

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Hey i brought it im helping, i would recommend it so i have others to play with, i think the intention with the new Graw series is to let us the gammers do all the modding/patching ourselves to an extent, there will be limited support as Graw 1 but for how long who knows, i doubt the Grin guys even know that.

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I really like the game SP and MP(Coop and adverse) and would gladly look at buying expansion packs, I recommend it to anyone I know who likes mp FPS games that arent looking for bunny hopping laser go pew pew type gameplay. Yes it needs a little work still , but ohhh the potential when its this good now ...

Will GRIN patch it up and look after it? I would say yes If its their choice , my concern is their publisher because all of the TC titles they have published lately have been poorly made, poorly implemented and less than poorly supported(IMO) and that I think is what is holding alot of people from purchasing Graw 2. Probably 75% of my team have shown little or no interest in purchasing this title most tried the demo and liked it but generally say "yeah but its ubi"

I can only say :g_withgrin: on this one

gg's all

oh and BTW Sleepdoc...man I am hunting for your crown when it comes to most typos :P

Edited by =AO=Stryck_9
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Muhahaha MUHAHAHAHA

I am the uncontested champion of the world and you have no chance to overtake. Surrender now or suffer the consequences of humiliation.

My typos can kick your typos ######. :o=:rofl:

my clan has been Razzing me for over 4 years everytime I type something on forums or in "in game chat" usually as they try to decipher my gibberish as Rodney Dangerfield always said "I get no respect" :wall:

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Guys, GRAW2 is a cracking game and I think GRIN have finally developed a product they can REALLY build on. However...

No matter how much we promote it and generate income (for UBI). It's always gonna be UBI who decide where that income is invested. And I say it will be invested back into the 360 and PS3 NOT the PC :(

If GRIN was able to break away from UBI and support their product (GRAW2 PC) I would back them to the hilt, but it's not possible I'm afraid. :(

Unless UBI have plans for GRAW2 PC, we are stuffed. Simple as that!

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Guys, GRAW2 is a cracking game and I think GRIN have finally developed a product they can REALLY build on. However...

No matter how much we promote it and generate income (for UBI). It's always gonna be UBI who decide where that income is invested. And I say it will be invested back into the 360 and PS3 NOT the PC :(

If GRIN was able to break away from UBI and support their product (GRAW2 PC) I would back them to the hilt, but it's not possible I'm afraid. :(

Unless UBI have plans for GRAW2 PC, we are stuffed. Simple as that!

Well Dazza,

I have no inside information on GRiNs relationship with UBI. But I have been in teh video game business for abotu 10 years now and have worked with many publishers and developers. So take my expereince with a grain of salt. but it is based on real experince.

Sometimes, Publishers do not permit developers to continue support on their porducts. but this is less common. In most cases that I have come across, publishers do not agree to "PAY THE DEVELOPER" for that support. What this means is that often times, a developer has the right to provide as much support to the product as they want, but not at the publishers expense. At their own expense. And often times, they are not permitted to alter the basic storiline or technology being simulated and some such things as the IP belongs to the publisher. But the basics of making a game less buggy and more fleshed out in terms of features that may have gotten pulled, is often not restricted. Especially when the publisher doesnt have to pay a dime for the ongoing support.

To take this discussion a little farther, some contracts between publishers and developers define just how long a publisher wil pay a developers to support the product based on a chart comparing total sales and rate of sales. Sometimes, the publisher, based on the contract, is only obligated to support the developer for example, 3 guys for 6 weeks as a result of the first 6 weeks of sales. But the developer may choose to put guys on it for 12 weeks. The delta is at the expense of the Developer.

finally, the support controls often contracted relate to the pre agreements for follow on products.

What I am saying is that I have learned about many different contract stipulations through the years between developer and publisher. but rarely have I seen a publisher, who stands to profit more if more sales occur, limit a devloper who wants to support their product at their own expense.

Edited by Sleepdoc
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I think Gamespot said it best "Dare I say---Tactical Shooter" when they described GRAW 2. :thumbsup:

For me ( a SP player) I was only disappointed that it was not long enought. 15/20 missions! would be great! I do believe, after playing [GR] and all the expansions, at LEAST 20 times ( in SP, I might add), I find the replayability of GRAW2 even better than GRAW1. I think GRIN hit a home run on this one (or a "Hail Mary" for we American Football enthuiest(sp)!). I have and will continue to recommend this game for all who are willing to listen...and even those so not inclined :D . :g_withgrin::support:

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if graw 2 PC sales are higher than graw PC then it does show something

we can show GRIN our appreciation and ubi our grattitude for chosing grin to develop GRAW series, and maybe ubi will think about a mission/map pack and prolonged support for the PC, this in turn would generate income for grin and maybe a bigger voice in the decicion making process regarding the PC version of the game.

it is a symbiotc thing, i hope. we do testing(-) beta, modding, game and buying, they do publication and development, one can not go without the other, unless you want graw series to stop, meaning the end of GR name on PC don't buy don't spread the word, if we want it to continue and improve and refined, spread the word and buy the game.

*i might be nuts and totally misunderstanding the nature of ubi.....

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To tell the truth I would tell no one to buy this game (atleast not yet) and I understand your point of GRIN needing big sales in order to provide the support for the game but I look at it like this. Maybe if they would have made the game right the first time we would not need major support like this. I understand that no matter what there will always be issues in any game that are missed in development but the issues we are seeing in this game are just to huge to let slide. I just hope that GRIN step’s up and comes out with a patch that fix’s most of the issues soon or else I feel that it will be very hard if not impossible to recover from this blunder.

Totally agree, dont have it, dont want it. The only Alpha person I know who does have it is saying himself to stay away.

If GRIN had respected the COOP player from the beginning, they would have many more people on board instead of alienating that segment of the community.

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Won't recomend it to anyone.

As far as waiting for patches. Lets remember what did and did not happen with GRAW. The limited patches and content that was added was no where near the game it was to replace. That being Ghost Recon.

Then along comes GRAW2 which in my opinion is even more incomplete than GRAW was and still is. But we will not see any further content for GRAW.

GRAW2 is so differant from GRAW that trying to compare them is just a waist of time.

Some of the good things about GRAW are not even in GRAW2 and in fact most of what was good about GRAW was replaced or changed.

That and one must remeber that numerous things that were complained about in GRAW which many of us hoped would be fixed in GRAW2 are worse or totally gone. If thats how you fix something then I don't see the reason to wait for any further content for GRAW2.

So I now have 2 incomplete games by the same developer and publishing company. Will I ever again buy a GR title from these two. To be quite honest not a chance.

The Co-op community was burned both times and there is no reason to continually hope that maybe just maybe it might get fixed.

My hat is off to GRIN for producing some of the best cutting edge graphics and sound but unfortuneatly these alone don't make a game.

Content is seriously lacking and by what I have read it looks like they hope that modders will save this title.

I for one hope they don't as it's not the modders that get paid to do the work or get any recognition or awards other than the ones we get here at gr.net. It's up to the people who get paid and get our hard earned dollar to produce a game thats complete and not a work in progress hoping that modders will work on the problems and bail out an unfinished game.

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