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something missing in the immersion factor.


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Let me start off by saying that I personlly love GRAW2, I'm enjoying it thoroughly. However, I don't think it's perfect, especially in terms of immerssion.

I recently found myself in the position of standing in a computer shop while my wife bought an iPod. Through sheer boredom (buying exactly what you intended to buy apparently takes some time), I browsed the PC games section and found a copy of Red Orchestra. I'd heard of this game and thought it might be something to fiddle with while waiting for some local GRAW 2 servers to arrive.

Strangely, this (old) game has made me realize where immersion falls short in GRAW 2. In a nutshell: the sounds and visuals that you exeprience while under fire do nothing to make you FEEL in danger. The graphics and tactical command abilites (and overall sound) in GRAW 2 are far superior to what Red Orchestra offers.... and yet. .. the gameplay of RO is more immersive. Not only do you actually "feel" getting hit, but you "feel" bullets that come close to you, in that the screen blurs a bit and you can't do much for a second or two.

The ballistics models in OR also made me realize another thing: while both games can result in "1 shot kills", GRAW2 has very quick gunfights in comparison. This actually detracts from the immersion of the game, since fights are over before you actually have a chance to appreciate them. In short, the aiming system of GRAW2 makes it too easy to hit someone. When was the last time you had a 3 minute gunfight with one single enemy in GRAW2?

For me, the quickest way to improve GRAW 2 is to add something that makes you actually "feel" the danger of taking fire.... and make the gunfights last longer. One shot kills are perfect, just make it harder to GET that one shot.

Edited by Trident-za
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@ tinker

"I want to be a tree" <-- should be the best words i've read in years.

smoke more pot ?

what i have seen in graw and graw 2 is that coop can be immersive

but one thing that happens is that tangos often if not always open fire the moment they see you, and don't move much unless they get return fire, this should change a bit, they should if more than one use more tactics, like one opens fire and the others spread out and become more active, the AI should care more for each other LOL

like in timber coop, the defenders next to the tank are often too static, don't do much when the tank is firing its gun, they should be on full alert and hawkeyed taking positions and after a while fall back in that relaxed position, a drinking or chatting and smoking animation would help :P

but that is game and another HUGE factor is team play,

whether coop or tvt, there is a huge crowd that comes to kill the enemy,

prevering the 1 shot kill in twenty seconds every twenty seconds

the pace of the gamers is high these days, graw 2 can be slow paced, if the gamers are slow paced this in turn would give more immersion... ?

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I think you're missing the point -

If I switched on a game of GR right now it would still create a bigger adrenalin rush then it does when switch on GRAW2 - why is that?

I hear you and agree totally Lightspeed. The immersion & tension invoked by Ghost Recon isnt a learned response at all, it is there (for those of us who've actually played the game) that is.

Some people like reading their own words so much, it really doesnt matter what you say. They are going to disagree just so they can read some more of their own drivel.

Spend a couple of thousand hours playing Ghost Recon like we have, then come and give an opinion.

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I think you're missing the point -

If I switched on a game of GR right now it would still create a bigger adrenalin rush then it does when switch on GRAW2 - why is that?

I hear you and agree totally Lightspeed. The immersion & tension invoked by Ghost Recon isnt a learned response at all, it is there (for those of us who've actually played the game) that is.

Some people like reading their own words so much, it really doesnt matter what you say. They are going to disagree just so they can read some more of their own drivel.

Spend a couple of thousand hours playing Ghost Recon like we have, then come and give an opinion.

As you say these true to life posts/opions will be lost in loooooooooong threads and because the threads get so long they loose the point they are trying to achieve, i think the best bits from all posts should be collected and Grin can then see what we reallly want.

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I think you're missing the point -

If I switched on a game of GR right now it would still create a bigger adrenalin rush then it does when switch on GRAW2 - why is that?

I hear you and agree totally Lightspeed.

Spend a couple of thousand hours playing Ghost Recon like we have, then come and give an opinion.

i think the best bits from all posts should be collected and Grin can then see what we reallly want.

i edited the quotes to keep it shorter, but starting with lightspeed, though i do not disagree i do have a question,

is it not a case of love at first sight ? feel the anxiaty when you hear the music when loading up ?

one has to look at the bigger picture, other devs other times and in fact new game in total,

i just played the "hidden" map hacienda alone, and i do get the same responses i had with GR,

maybe because i went from GR to RvS and tried FC played graw and did not keep in touch with GR the last two years.

@sheldon

i think after a thousand hours you can not ignore conditioned responses... not that i say it is totally conditioned

but pulling it out of the equation is not realistic, though i do know you and most others here have more than just playing as a back ground in GR and i think that too has some influence

@jjuk

your right, lets make a facts list with elements that we can show besides our feelings but actual changes that need to be done to get that level back which we all feel missing sometime or all of the time when playing graw series.

@ random....

i think people are often comparing and looking at a modded GR vs an less than complete graw or graw2 release

which is kinda unfair.

(no offence grin, but most expect an editor and a little more, but that might not be your fault or mistake)

to those who miss that feeling in coop, try hacienda (open the game up and try it,) it is bringing some tension back and the AI is tough but not uber aware i played it hardcore and it was well worth it

i think i get the problem....

those who were in GR from the demo might see it the same way(i did not do the demo of GR btw)

the demo of GR was kinda go in and shoot (castle day two / three guys at the gate)

then the first GR mission was totally different, more GR like as we now know it

you spawned in the forest and you could not see any one, you (first try) went out and got shot from some where

without realizing it.

totally different from the demo where you had the advantage...

this in graw and 2 is different, it is all like castle day....

in graw2 the ability to sneak up is there as was there to some extent in graw 1.35

but there is little or no surprize, and again i go to hacienda which has that disadvantage and you need to crawl and crouch to get somewhere.

this might be totally personal but the pace of hacienda is like GR

maybe on a re try it might be as scripted as the others but first go it was wonderfull :D

and might i add that an unmodded GR was just as predictable to my feelings ?

so what do we miss ?

simple elements clear and objective.

1)radio silence from HQ

2)the slow pace and carefull planning (i think flashy graphics tend to raise the pace... along with the nerotic narcom)

3)graw is made with a time frame, GR did not have that

4)human touch, the new hired graw2 tango is a great improvement though i miss them in lazy casual talk and drinking round campfires and such.(animations)

5)the dirty feel of the game, graw seems polished

6)we need more hit reactions in player, animation and wound models like that aim and limp. (consequences)

7)SP needs less directing, though this might not happen due to UBI wanting to have a movie like game.

8)mod tools and modders, we too have our responsabilities other than complaining. (sorry had to say it.)

any thing missing

please continue the list.

follow the number and we can add&subtract to a clear readable list that we can all agree on

and present it as our emmersion wish list.

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Modder reporting for duty - I have my hands on the Editor now and have begun the slog to get some new maps out. Hopefully more open and more intense - no promises yet.

Having thought some more about the matter - I do think if the maps do become much more open and triggers generate differnet responses depending on how you tackle the mission, it will become as intense as [GR].

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this might be totally personal but the pace of hacienda is like GR

maybe on a re try it might be as scripted as the others but first go it was wonderfull :D

and might i add that an unmodded GR was just as predictable to my feelings ?

Mission 07 is were i felt this game has a lot to come also. I`m not really a SP type, and playing that mission with others, felt good. We played it at a very slow pace and had a great run, without losing anyone in the process.

Manipulating your missions in accordance to the structure in place here, will bring Recon back. Lightspeed has been helping me a little today with the Editor, and i know he has some surprises to come also.

Tinker

:hehe:

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something missing in the immersion factor.

Functional doors, activated with the "Use" binding.

100% indoor play like GR1, it added a new dimension to the game to goto the second floor and cover, to clear out a set of rooms, like in mp docks and the night version docks, they were awesome.

We/ I miss them.

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something missing in the immersion factor.

Functional doors, activated with the "Use" binding.

Good point NQ

<_<

I posted long time ago, same thing about the doors in GRAW1. Grin did state doors are possible. Why did nobody try to make 1 available? Too much hassle? As it is, seems everyone wants, wants, wants. More help figuring how, is really needed.

Tinker

*EDIT*

Anyone willing to tell me about any GR1, original missions, that you completed any objectives without killing people, pls post.

*Digs heels in*

:thumbsup:

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  • 2 weeks later...
Lightspeed has been helping me a little today with the Editor, and i know he has some surprises to come also.

no pressure there Tinker :wacko:

u know its funny, just when i think ive got this game sussed it surprises me.

the other day i was running back through what i thought was i completed part of Mission 7 to look at the lay of the land when i was flanked by 2 rebels - tbh I think they actually spawned in behind me but it was a rush and in the gorgeous rugged landscape trying to hunt oout these guys who knew where i was but i didnt know where they were was awesome.

in addition, now that ive had the chance to play a bit of MP online it is a rush - and feels extremely GR-like. I am so impressed by it that it prompted me to put aside the mission-scripting and try to knock out a heap of Random Respawn maps which is where I played most of my MP and I still think its the most enjoyable type of MP.

so in essence, while it might not be quite as immersive as [GR] in some respects - it is so close and definitely there at times, that I think its worth fighting for and standing by. There's too much greatness in GRAW2 to ignore.

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This may seem like small potatoes but I liked in SP GR the fact you could have your teammates go prone while covering or maybe you had to soul switch to get them prone. Either way, why is there no longer any prone action with the latest? Have I been missing something?

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