Sniper vs. Grenade Launcher

[{B:P:R}Joker]

As for the maps Nowhere & Fort I would like to see those two ran with Pistols only.....

now your talking pistols only wwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.............................

[eyn093]

Couldn't we have a sort of kit restriction ?

Lets say on a 32 ppl server only 3 snipers for rebs en 3 for ghosts? Sounds fair to me.

[viiiper]

Couldn't we have a sort of kit restriction ?

Lets say on a 32 ppl server only 3 snipers for rebs en 3 for ghosts? Sounds fair to me.

I already tried to place script restrictions into the server xml and it does nothing, there are no guide line tutorials or manuals for adding features to the Gamespy locked server scripts, till GRIN activate that idea, it stays an idea.

[BMage]

Couldn't we have a sort of kit restriction ?

Lets say on a 32 ppl server only 3 snipers for rebs en 3 for ghosts? Sounds fair to me.

Kit restrictions are really the reason I stopped playing AA since it always ended up being the same people who got the better weapons. I'm pretty gung-ho anti-weapon restriction so I disagree However, I agree that while it may be hard to take out snipers and they may at times be annoying, I feel it's more fun to outflank them and beat them than it is to restrict them altogether.

[|PoRn|-EcKs-]

Heres my take on it.

GL's = Noob tube when a player is using that as their Primary weapon.

M99 = The new noob tube! One shot kill no matter where you hit the enemy.

Weapons restriction wont fix anything in the game except take more people away from it. I personally think you wont ever be able to fix the GL's with out nurfing them as they did in BF2 and that just splits the community more.

To fix the M99 is simple, at least on a non programing POV. Add sway when trying to aim, make the sniper take a breath before he pulls the trigger. Not only will this add more realizm to the game it will actually then take skill to use the kit.

my 2 cents

[eyn093]

I understand what you mean ,but...wouldn't it be better for a more amusing gameplay.As a hardcore sniper you'll maybe be forced to play as a riflemen and get to learn a diff. gamestyle.

Also , i don't see any army in the world that has 80% of there ppl on the field being a sniper.I think you need all sorts to have a ballanced game play making it more fun imho.

[BMage]

I understand what you mean ,but...wouldn't it be better for a more amusing gameplay.As a hardcore sniper you'll maybe be forced to play as a riflemen and get to learn a diff. gamestyle.

Also , i don't see any army in the world that has 80% of there ppl on the field being a sniper.I think you need all sorts to have a ballanced game play making it more fun imho.

I'm still confused as to why you feel the need to force snipers to do something different. If they want to snipe, why not let them? As to your second point, technically we're talking about special forces units rather than entire armies going head-to-head. This isn't BF2 To be honset, if I had the opportunity to take the enemy out from 150 yards when he doesnt see me as opposed to 15 yards, I'd definitely try to kill him at the longer distance as it leaves less up to chance. (IE a quickly dropped nade, a chance that he can get the first shot off, a chance that he can get a better shot off, etc)

[PersianImmortal]

To be honset, if I had the opportunity to take the enemy out from 150 yards when he doesnt see me as opposed to 15 yards, I'd definitely try to kill him at the longer distance as it leaves less up to chance. (IE a quickly dropped nade, a chance that he can get the first shot off, a chance that he can get a better shot off, etc)

I don't think anyone is arguing that people are stupid for using these tactics, the point is it's ruining the balance between realism and fun in GRAW 2. On the whole the game is actually very well balanced, but these two weapons (the GL and M99) are totally unrealistic and steadily unbalancing the game from what I can see and forcing most people to adopt them or lose most rounds. They need to be modified as discussed previously to make them a bit more realistic and not just "easy instant kill" weapons.

In the past couple of weeks since I started playing GRAW 2, I've seen the use of both rise exponentially as newer people in particular work out that they're the weapons of choice if you want relatively fast and easy kills.

I stupidly went back to play some GRAW 2 MP tonight, and wouldn't you know it I could swear more than half of the players were using the M99. It's hard to miss the distinctive sound of the M99 going off, and if you'll pay attention you'll notice it happens quite often on most maps. Sure, you can flank the sniper, but in a game which has several game modes rewarding who has the higher number of kills, I'm not going to spend half my time hunting snipers while they rack up huge kills and I get a fraction of that. If it was just last man standing, sure, that's fine. But that's not what most GRAW 2 modes are about - in dm and tdm it's all about kills, in RvsA, half the time if you take out the opposition you win. Only seige and to a degree HH genuinely reward patience and stealth.

Edited July 25, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[eyn093]

i'm not trying to force anything here ,sry if you had that impresion.But in a way the OP is wright,-to many snipers makes this a dull game.I remember in GRAW1 -strongpoint map ,it always turned into a snipe-fest. It was hard playing HH on that map with all the sniping. I understand you need snipers in your team,but not to much plz. And if ppl like to snipe so much ,why dont they play a sniping game ?

[ruggbutt]

Add sway when trying to aim, make the sniper take a breath before he pulls the trigger. Not only will this add more realizm to the game it will actually then take skill to use the kit.

my 2 cents

With me that makes 4 cents. The M99 should take longer for the rets to settle down as well as scope sway of some sort. FarCry got it close to right.

As for the n00b tube, 30 meters arming distance is the IRL arming distance for a spin stabilized 40mm nade. If GRIN adjusted this it would keep the GL a devastating weapon, but it would take the "n00bness" out of the weapon. If GRIN fixed these two issues they'd see a dramatic drop in complaints about both weapons being "noobish".

[Papa6]

well the sniping goes like this, snipers as the description in the kit selection menu states, snipers are good at long range but vulnerable at short range. I can't count how many times I've been killed bcz of my own stupidity as a sniper. I always keep an eye on my hud map and if the guy next to me is killed, I'll hear the shots if someone is on him and I can adjust myself accordingly.

but the sway is a stupid idea. that's like purposely asking for something to have the advantage. if you ask for sway, then ALL weapon systems deserve sway.

What i see alot of is people doing the "unreal tournament" left right walk all the time. standing fully upright is the least accurate stance to shoot from and GRAW2 rewards it. [GR] had settings whereby the weapon maker could input aiming data for accuracy for standing,kneeling and prone. that was great data.

as for the snipers, we are already penalized because of the draw distance.

[ruggbutt]

well the sniping goes like this, snipers as the description in the kit selection menu states, snipers are good at long range but vulnerable at short range.

Not very vulnerable. I can't count how many times the one shot/anywhere abilities of the M99 is almost unstoppable at close range. If you can put the first round fired into a person with any of the rifle kits, you can do so just as easy w/the sniper rifle. I've fired many of the .50 cal rifles IRL and I'm here to tell you that the "lightweight" bullpup design of the M99 still ends up as a 23 pound firearm. I defy any of you to swing that heavy of a weapon around then switch to the 7 pound assault rifle and tell me they swing and shoulder as fast.

but the sway is a stupid idea. that's like purposely asking for something to have the advantage. if you ask for sway, then ALL weapon systems deserve sway.

Fine, leave the rets open as long as some of the sniper rifles in [GR] then. I'd like to see anyone here steady a heavy rifle standing like the M99.

What i see alot of is people doing the "unreal tournament" left right walk all the time. standing fully upright is the least accurate stance to shoot from and GRAW2 rewards it.

I see that most of the time up close. I used to own an M4 and on f/a at the distances that some turn corners in this game I can hit my target with all shots from a burst. It may be "unreal tourney" but it's also real IRL.

[Judge_Recluse]

I remember the OICW, and the there are two differences in what we had in [GR] and what we have in GRAW 2.

[GR]'s OICW was balanced by movement while shooting. If you were moving while using the GL, it could pretty much go anywhere, including at your feet which equaled death for user. So you had to stand still, line your shot/shots, and fire. So running in the open, and stopping on a dime to use one was out of the question.

GRAW2 is balanced by number of shots, and reload time. You can only pop off one round at a time, and then it takes a bit to reload if you have any shells left. But you can be at a full speed sprint, stop on a dime, and accurately put a round where you want it at close range.

I would rather have the launcher game play from [GR] as it slowed the game down abit, but I dont get upset at the ones we have in GRAW2, as most times if played right, you can take out a guy with a launcher pretty quick.

Sniper rifles for me is a different story. My problem is not with the the way they are used..... but how many are used. Would nice if you could restrict the number of certain weapons used during a round. I know people would complain about not being able to use the weapon of their exact choice, but I see that option in other games, and after awhile, people get used to it.

[MorphingJar]

Its quite simple. Grenade Launchers and m99s are noob weapons. They are for people that are unsure of of their shot and try to take their kills whichever way they can get them. A simple hand grenade is 100x more versitile than a grenade Launcher. You can bounce it off corners, chuck it over a fence, and clear off rooftops.

I personally have no respect for users of the noob weapons.

Real Players use Assault Kits.

[BMage]

Point taken Persian & others. I personally am annoyed by GL's but it's really nothing too bad (apart from lack of a minimum distance). One thing I'd like to see with the M99 is slightly reduced lethality as well as a longer scope-up time. For example, I remember using it once and shooting a guy in the foot--he dropped with one bullet. Granted it would hurt a LOT, but I doubt it would kill. What i'd like to see is a slightly more realistic hit-box on the guns rather than an all around removal.

[eyn093]

'What i'd like to see is a slightly more realistic hit-box on the guns rather than an all around removal.'

Spot on !

[ruggbutt]

Real Players use Assault Kits.

A valid opinion. And you know what they say about opinions don't you? Seriously though, Jar is a world champion GR player and people should take his input seriously.

So running in the open, and stopping on a dime to use one was out of the question.

Incorrect. When running with the OICW you could hit your back key (S) and immediately fire. It closed the rets well enough that you could take that aimed shot. Additionally, the 40mm launcher (not the 20mm like on the OICW) can be fired accurately at a walk in GR.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

One thing I'd like to see with the M99 is slightly reduced lethality as well as a longer scope-up time. For example, I remember using it once and shooting a guy in the foot--he dropped with one bullet. Granted it would hurt a LOT, but I doubt it would kill. What i'd like to see is a slightly more realistic hit-box on the guns rather than an all around removal.

It wouldn't kill you but it would take you out of combat as your leg your be ripped off. I've seen videos of pigs being hit by those babies and it ain't pretty.

[BMage]

One thing I'd like to see with the M99 is slightly reduced lethality as well as a longer scope-up time. For example, I remember using it once and shooting a guy in the foot--he dropped with one bullet. Granted it would hurt a LOT, but I doubt it would kill. What i'd like to see is a slightly more realistic hit-box on the guns rather than an all around removal.

It wouldn't kill you but it would take you out of combat as your leg your be ripped off. I've seen videos of pigs being hit by those babies and it ain't pretty.

I'd have to take your word on it since I've never actually been in a combat situation, but if it is that brutal, scratch what i said

Edited July 25, 2007 by BMage

[ruggbutt]

It wouldn't kill you but it would take you out of combat as your leg your be ripped off. I've seen videos of pigs being hit by those babies and it ain't pretty.

True. That still leaves the issue that the sniper is allowed to swing a 23 pound rifle around standing, as quick as the rifleman with his 7 pound rifle. I assume you guys were hands on with some of these weapons in development, as you've got quite a bit correct regarding lethality, handling, recoil, etc. How fast can you swing that big heavy rifle around?

Edited July 25, 2007 by ruggbutt

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

How fast can you swing that big heavy rifle around?

I wouldn't swing it around at all as I wouldn't take it with me. Even though it could be super deadly I wouldn't want to carry a flagpole into action. Does that answer your question?

As a sniper you never use that rifle unless you are on the ground. You walk with it on your back using your secondary.

[ruggbutt]

As a sniper you never use that rifle unless you are on the ground. You walk with it on your back using your secondary.

Good point. Now how about when using it in game. I almost never see a sniper using it prone. They can run and stop as fast as a rifleman and shoulder it as fast and hit you anywhere and it's over with. That's the point of this whole thread.

1)The M99 should have some scope sway, be slower to shoulder, have the rets close slower or a combination of the three.

2)The 40mm nades should have a 30 meter arming distance as they are modeled after the real deal. The reason for the arming distance is so the grenadier doesn't frag himself. Rarely does this happen in GRAW2.

[DALLAS]

I have no problems with people using the GL ,but them dam snipers on the map nowhere everyone had one i could not even take 5 steps out of the spawn. BAM dead. I died like 34 times

[|PoRn|-EcKs-]

As a developer im sure GRINs intentions with the weapons are completely different from what the community ends up doing with them.

As much as you planned on the M99 to be used as a secondary when in motion its not and its an obviouse flaw that needs to be addressed.

GL's have always been the easy way out for alot of players and what Rugg said about the 30m arming would obviously help alot with people running around with it as a primary.

BF2 and the dolphin diving, prone spaming, and C4 chucking are perfect examples. It only took them 4-5 patches to fix those issues. It only cost them thousands of players (they got there money but the community suffered from it.)

[philkilla]

It is one thing to "noob tube", and another to actually earn a GL kill.

Noob tubing is someone that uses a GL mounted weapon exclusively, they won't bother using bullets, and they are my favorite prey in GRAW 2.

Sniping on the other hand can be a little unfair to the receiving end.

Some kills I admit I have taken a little unfairly, but I don't do it anymore because it takes the fun out.