Sniper vs. Grenade Launcher

[PersianImmortal]

I'm relatively new to the GRAW community, as I never really enjoyed or played much GRAW 1, nor any Ghost Recon games before it. However a common theme that I've noticed which is starting to really grate on my nerves is the incessant chat spam in GRAW 2 multiplayer regarding "skills", and comments about "noob tubing" and so forth. Apparently there is some sort of belief that using a grenade launcher at any distance is a "noob" thing to do, yet you instantly earn a badge of honor for using any sniper weapon all day long.

This makes no sense to me at all. The GL and the sniper gun are actually extremely similar - both are used for instant kill, both require similar amounts of precision over a distance, and both can be used at distance or close up in a totally unrealistic manner. For example:

- The GL is unrealistic in that it doesn't have a proper minimum range, leading to annoying short-range kills.

- The sniper weapons do not have proper weapon sway/breathing-induced movements. You can instantly aim a .50 cal with perfect stability while standing up, which is nonsense.

Don't get me wrong, both have valid uses, but neither weapon is necessarily "skillful", since you can either spam at short range with the GL, or hide in an out-of-the-way place and pick off the enemy as they exit from spawn all day long with the sniper gun, with minimum skill.

If people really are concerned about skill, I wonder why the "regular" weapons are not glorified the same way sniper guns are. It takes far more skill to get a kill with a normal carbine or MP5 for example, since you have to hit the target multiple times, they're alerted to your presence instantly and often start moving or seek cover. Not to mention the guns usually have some recoil, and you have to be closer to the target (and hence in greater danger) to score a kill.

Anyway just having a vent, since this is the number one topic of conversation in in-game chat. Even when I rack up 15 kills using my MP5, the moment I use the GL to take out a hidden enemy for example, out come the calls of "GET SOME SKILLS" or "NOOB TUBING #?#?!". Is the entire community always this childish?

Edited July 25, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[spm1138]

"People don't like losing in games" is the short version.

There's always an excuse.

It's all about trying to salvage a "moral victory" I guess.

Their chosen playstyle is 1337z0r and requires many skillz0r whilst yours is ubar-lame so despite losing they actually "win" where it counts. In their own heads.

To be fair the lack of a minimum arming distance does render GLs irritating because it removes the one downside from them and turns them into peoples primary weapon.

People don't like being instagibbed (or killed behind cover because it reminds them that they weren't having one of their better ideas when they decided said cover was "safe") but that's really just a subset of "people don't like losing".

Provided the weapon is ingame and not against any server rule I fail to see the problem.

Does the MP game have the option to limit or disable certain weapons?

Edited July 25, 2007 by spm1138

[GrimeyAK]

Nah, the whole community isn't like that. It just depends who you play with. I guess they just don't understand that every weapon has it's use, and taking out guys hidden behind cover with a GL is one of them. I don't play adversarial game types too much and personally, I don't complain about guys using GLs against me when I do. I just run like hell to get out of their line of sight and try to sneak up and get the drop on them. You knew he was there, and he didn't do anything about it so it's his fault he died, there's no reason to complain. I mean, if you've got the GL, why not use it if you know the guy's there instead of risking your own skin to get closer and shoot him? That's the smart thing to do IMO.

[bangurdead]

I see GL's as a method of clearing out corridors if the opposition is forcing your team back into your spawn, a well placed grenade will easily kill 2-3 people if used correctly...

I see the M99 ONLY as a instagib rifle which ticks me off as opposed to its counter parts the M14 and the PSG-1's cousin (don't remember the name), It doesn't matter if your toe gets shot, you're dead no matter what on impact, which really grinds my gears (to quote peter griffin)

Edited July 25, 2007 by bangurdead

[Papa6]

I don't agree with the topic starters view about sniper rifles. the only really promising of a quick kill is the M99. but the short side of it's coin (the negative) is, the other two are semi auto. if you don't aim with the scope over a long distance, you can kill an enemy to save your butt. every weapon system has it's (+)'s and (-)'s, some just naturally like to use assault rifles, while others like sniperrifles, some support.

This game was intended to offer weapons that all should enjoy. BDA's server offers great games. this is what the game is about, of course aside from the bottom line profits.

but yes a semi sniperrifle can be of good use if it's all you have to protect your nuts

Edited July 25, 2007 by Papa6

[{B:P:R}Joker]

ive played all through the gr series and always have used the noob tube (GL) as its called now. in the [GR] it was worse i would say as you had the oicw with a gl which had 12 gls in 2 bacthes of 6. you could fire 6 gls on rapid fire basically

and i cant remember as much moaning and whining about that as i have heard over the past couple of weeks.

and in graw 2 i think the most you can get in a standard kit is 2 and they have to be reloaded after each shot.

and from a personal point of view i cant see why you would want to take any other sniper apart from the m99 yes it bolt action and you have to reload after every shot and the other snipers are magazine rifles but the m99 as pointed by several people in various posts and threads is 99% one shot one kill. just make that shot count.

[Bloooz07]

I think we play in the same server a lot Persian. I have seen and received the same sort of comments.

Not everyone in the game is like these people but there almost always seems to be at least one of them in the server that we play in.

If there were a wider variety of populated servers active in our time zone we might find a server without said whiner, but at the moment it is unlikely.

Everyone is entitled to play with the weapon of their choice and if that doesnt suit some players, well they can always leave the server or better yet pick the same weapon and try to get revenge

Edited July 25, 2007 by Bloooz07

[RnegadeVyp3r]

Both weapons have their places. I personally dont like the M99 as its over used but it certainly can be handy. I HATE it when most of the team uses them or some lame camper sits near your spawn picking you off before you get any where.

It does take some Skill to use the M99. You need to make each shot count as not only do you have to load another bullet into chamber and the other thing going against it is that its super loud as you said, as soon as i hear that thing go off i go .50cal hunting. Its a beacon and draws me right in. I bring my M14 to the fight and take off head knowing that i probably did a better job and got the upper hand... then rinse and repeat on the next M99 n00b.

As for the Grenade Launcher... also effective for people who have taken cover and think they are safe... but i do hate it when people use it when you come face to face and dont want to engage in a fire fight with bullets. Sure, its generally a one shot kill and is effective, but its LAME!!!

I think the moral of it all is we all expect everyone to show some Honor or something, but true to form... ALOT of players have the Kill at all costs no matter what tactics are used. Its a shame but thats also war.

Just my peice...

- RnegadeVyp3r.

[dE.Maestro]

ive played all through the gr series and always have used the noob tube (GL) as its called now. in the [GR] it was worse i would say as you had the oicw with a gl which had 12 gls in 2 bacthes of 6. you could fire 6 gls on rapid fire basically

and i cant remember as much moaning and whining about that as i have heard over the past couple of weeks.

and in graw 2 i think the most you can get in a standard kit is 2 and they have to be reloaded after each shot.

and from a personal point of view i cant see why you would want to take any other sniper apart from the m99 yes it bolt action and you have to reload after every shot and the other snipers are magazine rifles but the m99 as pointed by several people in various posts and threads is 99% one shot one kill. just make that shot count.

I totaly agreed with you . OICW/GL was my GR weapon of choice , and I do not remember people was moaning about it . On the other hand we have both propobly spend more time in clan matches then on public servers. I personaly miss some weapons (even sensors) from [GR] coz i think they add to gameplay and tactic in some way, but i will not cry about it . GL have some advantage , but scoped SCAR against unscoped(with empty GL) have it too, and i do not hear anyone is complaing about it . Anyway i wish all clases to be alowed to have atleast 1 frag (dunno why sniper shud be restricted to carry it . It does come handy sometimes), but im fine with a way it is .

[viiiper]

As for the Grenade Launcher... also effective for people who have taken cover and think they are safe... but i do hate it when people use it when you come face to face and dont want to engage in a fire fight with bullets. Sure, its generally a one shot kill and is effective, but its LAME!!!

- RnegadeVyp3r.

What your all forgetting is all your points are valid to a degree but the issue of engaging with bullet against tube, comes from lag, the player with the best ping has an unfair advantage with 0.1 - 0.3 seconds, this is countered by the tube. GRIN has made some better net code that evens things out a little, but remember that the tube will be an effective weapon when lag comes into the equation. I've heard and seen the effects of all players levelling off at 160mS and the game becomes a fairer place.

[dE.Maestro]

As for the Grenade Launcher... also effective for people who have taken cover and think they are safe... but i do hate it when people use it when you come face to face and dont want to engage in a fire fight with bullets. Sure, its generally a one shot kill and is effective, but its LAME!!!

I think the moral of it all is we all expect everyone to show some Honor or something, but true to form... ALOT of players have the Kill at all costs no matter what tactics are used. Its a shame but thats also war.

Just my peice...

- RnegadeVyp3r.

Yes, it is the way the war is . More LAME is when u have to play against camper clan (in [GR]) that place sensors around and wait, but we all had to play against that , and we adapt our tactics and win. Maybe people shud not rush forward if they dont wanna meet enemy with GL on ready, meybe they shud adapt and use other tactics . Most GL kills are done when breaking out of spawn anyway.

[_ST]

I personnaly do not see why Grin could not make the GL arming distance further, it was asked about during the beta and still was not fixed. Americas Army has the GL arming distance perrfect imo.

What also bothers me is when you come face to face with a guy that decides to GL you at almost point blank range is that he does not die also. Considering this game is supposed to be realistic i cannot understand the devs idea to leave this in.

I have not bought this game yet i am going on MP demo. Just out of curiosity how many people are normally playing at night?, not going to get this unless the players are substantial, although this game is new.

Edited July 25, 2007 by _ST

[PersianImmortal]

I don't agree with the topic starters view about sniper rifles. the only really promising of a quick kill is the M99.

That's exactly why on most servers the M99 is the weapon of choice for people taking the sniper class. On some maps, like tdm_nowhere, the ratio of snipers in the team becomes ridiculously high, it makes the entire game a boring sniper camping war.

My point is that ironically sniping with the M99 is actually just as "low-skilled" as using the GL, since all you do is bring the scope up and instantly whatever is under your crosshair is dead when you fire. If people say that it's still tricky to hit a moving target with the M99, then by the same token the GL has an arcing projectile path, and more often than not you won't be firing at someone right out in the open, you have to aim reasonably well to hit a partially hidden or long-range target, or on uneven ground.

The bottom line is that both guns are essentially just instant kill weapons, and are mainly used as such.

I think we play in the same server a lot Persian. I have seen and received the same sort of comments.

If there were a wider variety of populated servers active in our time zone we might find a server without said whiner, but at the moment it is unlikely.

Yep, the problem is that in our time zone we really only have the choice of 2 or maybe 3 populated servers at any time. The rest are all empty or have 2 players on them for example.

I'm no shrinking violet myself, I can give abuse as good as I can take it. It doesn't upset me at all, and most times I just ignore it. But obviously it's not much fun playing on server after server where everyone is being childish, stupid and abusive. After years of playing ordinary MP games with the usual crap communities that they entail, I was hoping GRAW 2 would become my new MP game of choice due to the hopefully lower idiot-to-normal ratio.

As for changing tactics against snipers using M99, I definitely do this myself, but on a public server there's no hope of organising your team. If you're facing an opposing team with 2-3 good M99 snipers who set up in the right spots, they can suck the life out of the entire map. Ironically I often using the GL to break a sniper's hold (if I know roughly where they are), which of course inevitably brings out cries of "NOOB!".

Anyway, I'm hoping over time the idiots leave this game and the more decent players stick around. I honestly enjoy a good challenge, I like playing against (and being owned by) the good players, and there are definitely some good ones out there I've run into. Hope I can find more to play with in MP.

Edited July 25, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[Nutlink]

This is how it was in GRAW 1, and yes, eventually the childish players diminished. There were still a few last I played a few months ago, but they weren't nearly as common. I imagine that once the map editor is released there will be plenty of maps that have no M-99 or EGLMs. Of course there will be the maps that have nothing but those weapons too, but at least the weapon selection is dependent on the map.

[PersianImmortal]

I wouldn't like either of them removed to be honest, I'd just prefer both to be made more realistic if possible. At the moment both are Quake-like deathmatch weapons, when they should be made realistic. I think it's quite simple to implement as well.

The GL should have a decent minimum range of say 10 meters, maybe 20. That would make it genuinely used as a medium to long-range weapon which is what it's intended for. If you fire it within the minimum range, the round justs the target doing mild damage with no explosion.

The M99 (and other sniper weapons) should have weapon sway introduced if you're not using it when absolutely prone and unmoving. That is, if you're standing up with the M99 it will sway and move randomly by a moderate amount, preventing people from using it unrealistically.

GRAW 2 is after all more about being a realistic tactical shooter, and the two weapons above are currently annoying and unrealistic, both can be considered "less skillful" in that sense. If not fixed, over time more and more people will come to use them. I just got off tdm_lagoon, and more than half the players were using M99, making it a boring sniper-fest (I still came 2nd in kills though, so I'm not whining about being owned .

Edited July 25, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[Lethal.Ambition]

My point is that ironically sniping with the M99 is actually just as "low-skilled" as using the GL, since all you do is bring the scope up and instantly whatever is under your crosshair is dead when you fire. If people say that it's still tricky to hit a moving target with the M99, then by the same token the GL has an arcing projectile path, and more often than not you won't be firing at someone right out in the open, you have to aim reasonably well to hit a partially hidden or long-range target, or on uneven ground.

Yes. Because everytime you choose a sniper kit everyone magically sets up in front of you for you to take the shot. Forget sneaking around, forgeting sweating bullets when you have to bring out your mP5 or your pistol when you hear footsteps or when you need to advance a couple of feet. Forget taking a shot with M99 and being forced to relocate (if you're smart) and possibly setting up an ambush for any counter-sniper tactics. Forget all that. Sniping is all "low-skilled." How right you are.

Same for GL. Forget having to take out the GL in the middle of a fight. Forget having to step out for longer than you would like making sure to get the arc and distance properly. Forget having to reload it in case you need it again. It's all "low-skilled." How right you are.

Edited July 25, 2007 by Lethal.Ambition

[viiiper]

The GL should have a decent minimum range of say 10 meters, maybe 20. That would make it genuinely used as a medium to long-range weapon which is what it's intended for. If you fire it within the minimum range, the round justs the target doing mild damage with no explosion.

The M99 (and other sniper weapons) should have weapon sway introduced if you're not using it when absolutely prone and unmoving. That is, if you're standing up with the M99 it will sway and move randomly by a moderate amount, preventing people from using it unrealistically.

GRAW 2 is after all more about being a realistic tactical shooter, and the two weapons above are currently annoying and unrealistic, both can be considered "less skillful" in that sense. If not fixed, over time more and more people will come to use them. I just got off tdm_lagoon, and more than half the players were using M99, making it a boring sniper-fest (I still came 2nd in kills though, so I'm not whining about being owned .

PersianImmortal and crew,

Your argument is flawed, your assuming all is equal for each player, where it is not by far, like I mentioned earlier the lag (150+mS ping) causes players to adapt. You cry more realism, I say GRIN got it spot on with the M99 & Grenade launcher, the problems faced by players on a 0.1 - 0.3 second disadvantage is balanced by choosing the right weapon. I challenge anyone to play a 150+mS server with players on 30mS + and say it makes no difference.

The Semi auto rifle would be my choice but the number of times I'm out gunned due to lag, only leaves me with a more limited weapons selection & stronger tactical strategy. What ever you argue, you only represent yourselves, till you stand on a server with players of equality then the weapons argument can really start.

viii

[PersianImmortal]

The fact that I put "low skilled" in quotes, is my way of saying that neither are particular low skilled. However if GL is going to get ragged on by the crowd, then so too should M99.

And really, I don't see it as being incredibly hard to find some bushes on the far edge of the map, and start sniping enemy as they emerge from their spawn. The sounds are distorted enough over distance that it's very hard to figure out exactly where a sniper is shooting from if they're well hidden (e.g. behind bushes). You spawn, move out of spawn trying to get to cover or to work your way around to flank the enemy and BANG you're dead. Rinse and repeat. The more enemy snipers set up shop this way, the harder it is to counter them, even with your own snipers.

/EDIT: In reply to viiiper, I agree that the ping situation means more frustration, but given I play from Australia on US and European servers quite often, I am more affected than most, yet I'm still happy to rely on my MP5SD. If you use genuine strategy, more times than not you're supposed to have the drop on the enemy, meaning you see them before they see you, so a fraction of a second isn't a major problem. I still get respectable scores on foreign servers with my high ping.

The way it's heading right now, soon everyone will be using either GL or M99, and I doubt that's where anyone wants GRAW 2 to head.

Edited July 25, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[Lethal.Ambition]

The fact that I put "low skilled" in quotes, is my way of saying that neither are particular low skilled. However if GL is going to get ragged on by the crowd, then so too should M99.

And really, I don't see it as being incredibly hard to find some bushes on the far edge of the map, and start sniping enemy as they emerge from their spawn. The sounds are distorted enough over distance that it's very hard to figure out exactly where a sniper is shooting from if they're well hidden (e.g. behind bushes). You spawn, move out of spawn trying to get to cover or to work your way around to flank the enemy and BANG you're dead. Rinse and repeat. The more enemy snipers set up shop this way, the harder it is to counter them, even with your own snipers.

But that is how sniping works. That is the way sniping works in real life too, minus the spawn points.

In all honesty, if you know there's a sniper covering an exit point, why in the world would you try to take him on? He has a scope and pin-point accuracy. If you just try you'll die. Throw a smoke and run across or go around another way. But if you can get past a sniper's point of cover he is dead meat. If he is zoomed into the cover point you can walk up to him and tap him in back. If you just get close enough they won't survive. That's the point of it all.

You don't counter a Sniper with a rifle when you can't even see him. You try to spot him and kill him indirectly.

[PersianImmortal]

Sounds great in theory, but in practice take a map like nowhere - the top spawn point only has two valid exits, and a sniper camped at the far left of the map (easy for them to get to by the way), can cover both exits extremely well.

Get one, two or three snipers set up around there, and they can pretty much take out most any person moving away from spawn. Throw a smoke grenade and you only alert the rest of the enemy team who then either snipe you on the way down the right branching road (camped at the very bottom near the bridge), or you get grenaded.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but on a public server with no coordination, it's frustrating and annoying. In fact last time I played tdm_nowhere, one of the enemy snipers specifically described it as "shooting fish in a barrel". Not the best indication of a high-skill scenario on his part, and really just made the entire game boring.

Again, you have to understand that I personally can evolve my tactics and often take the time to work my way around behind a sniper and cap them. But in the meanwhile they get 5-10 kills, I get 1. So either I switch to sniper or accept being beaten, which again means the entire game winds up with everyone using M99, right?

PS - I've posted this before, but here is a

of me playing GRAW 2 MP, so people can see my playing style. Edited July 25, 2007 by PersianImmortal

[Lethal.Ambition]

This is true. Taking out a well place sniper's next takes team coordination. But it doesn't mean it's easy to snipe because when the opposing team gets that coordination the sniper also needs help from his team to stay alive.

I wonder how clan matches are.

[{B:P:R}Joker]

[McGhost]

There are to many children playing these types of games.

[PersianImmortal]

where you on bda's server last night per chance then?? with that map on tdm thats all your goona get tbh that or spawn raping. but with with a good mix of players that map can become a non camping map and quite a tactical map as proved on bda's server last night. myself and viiper werent noobs with m99 but we were still getting killed enough times to stop it from being a camping fest tbh.

Yeah, I think I was playing with you guys. I play on the BDA server quite often as it's the most populated one during my game time.

I did relatively OK, I was tempted to switch to sniper, but I stayed with MP5/GL combo, using GL to clear out the sniper nest at the top of the branching roads (which of course resulted in lots of "NOOB" comments). But it was fairly boring in my opinion. 32 players on a relatively small map with lots of snipers makes it very tough to do anything meaningful.

I guess the reason I complain about these sort of things is because after many, many years of playing online games, I see a lot of promise in GRAW 2, I just think a few small changes here and there are necessary to prevent the game becoming 'just another MP game'.

[Halli~SPARTA~]

Viiiper made a great comment on the ping but you also have to look at machines.

The players with SUPER systems will out shoot you almost every time if you meet them head to head.

I play on a P4 /agp card and there are times that to protect myself I will walk with a GL ready.

Now if I see I can take a Tango out with bullets then I will but sometimes I round a corner and there is a Tango in my face so I automaticly fire the GL, I could have shot him with the rifle but by the time I would switch to the rifle I would be dead.

The good thing is that with a slower system you learn to move with the group and play tactical, by doing so you live longer have better enjoyment of the game and TEAMWORK.

As for the maps Nowhere & Fort I would like to see those two ran with Pistols only.....