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A Co-op junkies perspective


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Well here goes.

Before I start lets remember that this is an opinion and nothing more. For many years I played GR and a proud member of Alpha Squad. For many years we strived to put out the best Co-op touneys around.

We always tried to bring something new to the table and our old friend GR gave us IGOR which many of us mission scripters were still finding new and interesting things we could do untill the very end.

A few things I never got to bring to the public as interest in GR became less and less, and available teams and players went their own ways.

Happens I guess, but sad none the less.

Along comes GRAW. What was to be GR's replacment. The promises were made, speculation ran wild, and the game left many of us feeling rather cheated.

Even after the total fiasco with content and mission playability some of us held out hope that GRIN and UBI would treat the serious Co-op player right and give us something closer to the great game we played for years.

We were left out in the cold. The vision of "Old style GR" was more or less, well to be a bit blunt here, NOT.

But still some of us held on.

Along comes GRAW 2. Not even an exspansion to GRAW but a whole new game unto itself.

Was it an improvment over the first installment ? IMO No ! Not for the Co-op junkie at least.

Most of the content is geared for the TvT arena and not for the serious Co-op junkie. While the graphics and sound are state of the art and far above anything else out there. The content is just not Co-op friendly.

I spent many a month trying to make missions for GRAW. But after many months of trial and continued failure I gave up as it was just too darn complicated to do anything.

That and the missions were so linear and uneventfull ie no hostage rescues possable. no changing senerios depending on what the team did during the mission. Not like 4 is a real team when your used to 9 anyway.

So we are left with a legacy. A fond memory, a lost friend.

If I had to rate this game on a scale of 1 - 10. 3 maybe 4. ( this is purely on graphics and maps ) Game play, I would give it a 2 - 3.

So it's with great sadness I bid farewell to a loved friend and companion known as Ghost Recon.

Advanced Warfighter is but a mear shadow and no where near a replacement for all us Co-op junkies.

Rest well my friend GR, for you have provided many years of fun and friendship. Someday another game shall come along and once again provide that heart stopping breath holding fun and challenge. But it's not here in GRAW2.

Creatch_AS over and out !!

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wow. I'm perplexed by all this. GRAW2 seems to be dead, bleeding or dying. um i understand according to posts made by wolfsong. but he did say that we WILL get the same tools that Grin used. Add to that, the fact that the games script will allow for you Creach to simplify the process of making missions.

so before you bail out, maybe you can create missions as they should have been.

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Geez Creatch. It's only been out one week. give it some time. Cripes.

Lets first see if teh modders editor etc comes out

Lets see what they do with patches.

Remind me to take that "organ donor" check mark off my drivers lic. if creatch is working the night shift at the hostpital ..

"Take his kidneys .... hes dead ... no no...im just resting!".

:)

Edited by Sleepdoc
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I see where he's coming from. SP was short and was finished in a couple of evenings. Coop definitely seems very lacking and has been seemingly limited from GRAW out of the box. Player choices in weapons and loadouts are gone. Spawn on leader is gone. Only 3 maps with no editor. COOP campaign has been "gutted" according to some. So for all appearances it looks like the adversarial crowd benefited the most from GRAW2. While the COOP options have been all but removed from the game. While issues from the previous version in AI ESP, Friendly AI pathfinding, draw distance, etc haven't been addressed in the least. I know "modders" can change that "when" the tools come but that doesn't make it any easier for those who prefer a cooperative gameplay versus adversarial MP. It reduces the perceived value of their investment. I know some are questioning their 50.00 purchase as a result.

I'm not saying GRAW2 is bad, but currently because I'm not really an adversarial player (mostly I dislike respawn game types), I do have to say so far I'm disappointed and feel the game is quite lacking. . Most of that disappointment is because I feel the game is truly incomplete and was rushed out the door and not really fleshed out. And I do question if I got my money's worth when I compare it to other (non UBI games) that I have also spent 50.00 on in the last couple of years.

I don't see the rushing the game as entirely by GRIN's decision - more likely it was UBI. Because of that I'm willing to wait and see what happens with the next patch or patches. I'm just sad to see UBI and money reasons drive what could have been a great game to something I'm not satisfied with. I do want to see it get better and I have hope for it.

Edited by FI_FlimFlam
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Remind me to take that "organ donor" check mark off my drivers lic. if creatch is working the night shift at the hostpital ..

"Take his kidneys .... hes dead ... no no...im just resting!".

:)

Heck you could be looking straight at me and screaming and I'm going to take the kidneys anyway. And the lungs and heart and eyes and liver. 0:)

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My two cents as a newcomer to the Ghost Recon community : I never owned Ghost Recon, and only got in with the GR:AW crowd at the very end (my first GR:AW install was version 1.35). GR:AW co-op is pretty fun, especially the one-life servers. I've been playing those for a couple months now, enjoy my time there and feel I'm getting just a little better each time I play.

GR:AW-2 Seems like a horrendous step backwards to me, when looking at gameplay and variety of missions. GR:AW-2 has more eye candy (umm, within a couple hundred meters range anyway), and definitely sounds better. But I can't help feeling I just spent $50 on an empty dinner plate. The plate is pretty and fancy, but where's the beef??

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I think you might be alone with that statement. GRAW1 had less placed on the table than GRAW2. GRAW1 was mostly close Qtrs and not much else.

GRAW2 opened things up a bit. But the verdicts are coming in, both good and bad from this community. But overall it would appear that GRAW2 should have a better life span.

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Be not sad Creatch, for much to come there is.

I think you need to give it a bit more of a chance and some time.

I played some COOP last night and it was quite promising.

Without wanting to take anything away from the GRIN Devs, I am confident that given the right scripting tools, we Mission Modders will be able to produce some cracking Missions and heart pumping COOP without the current linearity.

I think everyone bitching about GRIN needs to step back and take a look at what they have achieved - not the things they havent.

Given the limited time frame they had to produce GRAW2, they have made vast improvements and if we get the Modding Tools, we will be able to produce the things we like in COOP.

Just think about how much longer the release would have taken if they had made each of the 10 maps less linear then they are? A lot more scripting work and any Mission Scripter knows it.

More maps? Another huge job.

Should I go on?

The rality is they have given us a taste of what we can do, and now they are bringing the Mission Scripting Tools.

GR Modding started out slowly and look what it became - just give it time...not one week.

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I think the real question is can this game mod be modded.

1. To do mission based objectives.

2. Can the the 12 man team be split put into sections and complete missions with all that entails.

ie maps, weapons,leader.

3. Can missions be created from scratch and ai programmed from the tools provided.

4. Can this once its created then be made into a tournament so teams can play it and complete it with a score being calculated.

5. Can this be done on a dedicated server with all the tools needed to host and do match replays for problems in the missions or in case of questions re the mission.

If the answers to the above are no then Creatch has every right to his thread and a lot more of us would probably follow.

At the moment I dont think the above questions have complete answers , so as for me Ill hold on for bit to see what the scripters will do and what tools we get.

I do understand your thread I think though its a tad early, by about a month.

I also understand that other members of Alpha Squad will allmost be following you if certain criteria is not met.

I am sure others would follow.

THIS WOULD BE A VERY SAD DAY

With respect I would ask that you and your Squad and other keen coop teams, would waite just for a month or so.

This community cannot afford to have such a large hole appear in its membership.

Colin

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ok, i do only play coop for the fun of it via lan with my friends. with graw1 we had a lot of fun although the options were very limited. i haven't tried graw2 in coop yet, but this is in the works. :shifty:

what i expect from a good coop-graw-style-game is:

1. when i have a teamleader, he should have all the tools, that are there in sp (giving orders, full map, blue cicrles on the ground, etc.)

2. every teammember should have the possibility to access the map (minus being able to give orders)

3. when everbody has access to the map, there should be a sketching-tool where the teamleader can clarify the route for the team or single members, like we had in r6:lockdown (iirc).

4. there should be a respawn-option from: none, so-and-so-often, unlimited, spawn at starting point, spawn at team-leader

5. every member should be able to create his own weapons-kit like in sp

6. you should be able to gain "bonus"-points for kills, best whatever (marksman, etc like in sp) which define ranks

7. when having ranks the next in the chain of command should be team-leader, when the original team-leader dies

8. the mission-briefing should be like in sp. without a mission-briefing the whole thing doesnt work

thats a few points that came spontaniously to my mind, when thinking of coop-gameplay.

like i said, i havent tried graw2-coop yet. perhaps anybody can tell me which of the above points are implemented in the game right now?

Edited by Brainman2k
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good read, hope you can change your mind creatch, well that grin can deliver what you need, i enjoyed AS mods/campaigns a lot.

as for weapons, i thought i read some where that weapon load outs were part of the scripting now, so when a mission is scripted you script the possible load outs as well, this might be interresting for you guys ?

and in normal coop you can still chose what ever you want if you throw in a mule.

this time there is a hostage resque in game, maybe it can be tweaked to your liking.

i can not see what you desire or want, but i do think you might wanna sit back and maybe come again later when we get the editor and wolfsongs tutorials.

any way, it would be sad to see you as well as any other AS member leave so soon.

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If an Alpha Squad member has that view then thats something to take into account right there :shifty: .

As regards something else (this can be classed as O.T) check the games section and what Blackfoot Studios are working on as regards promising in this area :zorro: .

Certainly would be nice to finally have a damn game in the name of Ghost Recon that simply did what Ghost Recon did ... but more, real simple concept :wall: .

I agree the "promising" side of scripting might come with the editor. Its simple realy, if the editor comes and you can script coop missions that have multiple objectives and you can control and trigger events Dependant on variables based on what the team decides to go for, then you can eat your hat Creatch. :P

And if people are interested enough to build [GR] remake maps (****> FARM < ***** Day & Night with a larger field size *cough*) and both of these things arrive, I would update my rig and buy a copy of the game.

Or else its too hard to use and dies away. As its been said, give it a bit more time yet, logical because the editor is coming and its simply a case of seeing if its worth its salt.

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Well Creatch has been the only Alpha Squad member to actually purchase GRAW2 so far. Everyone else (myself included) is waiting to see if it is really worth the $$ for us, or is busy playing ArmA (which certainly has some issues, but support for coop and scripting options are not in them)....

Anyway, I think Colin is asking the right questions... Based on what I have seen/read so far my expectations are

1. To do mission based objectives.

It sounds like this is going to be available with out any/much complexity.

2. Can the the 12 man team be split put into sections and complete missions with all that entails.

ie maps, weapons,leader.

From what I have seen there are LOTS of problems with the entire leader thing and access to map information for players. My suspicion is that this is not going to be possible/resolved.

3. Can missions be created from scratch and ai programmed from the tools provided.

Some will say yes, but I think I am still going to be stuck saying no. The most fundamental bit of AI script functionality continues to be missing from GRAW -- that is the ability to assign a "new plan" to an AI actor. As I understand things, the only thing available is to tell them to "go to location X" -- if you have ever looked at a GR tourney mission from Alpha you will quickly realize that this type of behavior just does not cut it for scripting responses to mission events.

4. Can this once its created then be made into a tournament so teams can play it and complete it with a score being calculated.

It seems like the scripting options probably exist to do this, but I could be mistaken.

5. Can this be done on a dedicated server with all the tools needed to host and do match replays for problems in the missions or in case of questions re the mission.

Colin, I think your getting as sarcastic as me in your "old age".... To the best of my knowledge no one even asks about observers and/or replays any more......

If the answers to the above are no then Creatch has every right to his thread and a lot more of us would probably follow.

At the moment I dont think the above questions have complete answers , so as for me Ill hold on for bit to see what the scripters will do and what tools we get.

I do understand your thread I think though its a tad early, by about a month.

I also understand that other members of Alpha Squad will allmost be following you if certain criteria is not met.

I am sure others would follow.

THIS WOULD BE A VERY SAD DAY

With respect I would ask that you and your Squad and other keen coop teams, would waite just for a month or so.

This community cannot afford to have such a large hole appear in its membership.

Well other than Creatch "we" are waiting to see definitive YES responses to at least these types of questions before we follow Creatch as far as he has gone in this process :) I put a lot of energy into trying to explain these issues last year w/ GRAW, and felt that I spent a lot of time getting shouted down by a variety of "fan-boys" and the like who did not ever play or try to script coop missions. I'm not bitter, but I'm also not going to waste my time trying to swim against the current. As for waiting another month, well I'm waiting at least that long before I decide if I want to board this ship, not to decide if I will jump off. But frankly, if you are releasing "the same tools the developers used" then you do not need to do any work on them, so roll them out.

If an Alpha Squad member has that view then thats something to take into account right there :shifty: .

You will note few/no posts from our membership about GRAW2... That's because we do not know anything about it, since only one member has purchased a copy :)

As regards something else (this can be classed as O.T) check the games section and what Blackfoot Studios are working on as regards promising in this area :zorro: .

Certainly would be nice to finally have a damn game in the name of Ghost Recon that simply did what Ghost Recon did ... but more, real simple concept :wall: .

Indeed, those activities are under close watch :shifty:

I agree the "promising" side of scripting might come with the editor. Its simple realy, if the editor comes and you can script coop missions that have multiple objectives and you can control and trigger events Dependant on variables based on what the team decides to go for, then you can eat your hat Creatch. :P

I'm waiting, but I am not holding my breath, the lack of serious resource allocation issues (e.g. mission critical demo specialist etc.) and the apparent inability to redirect AI will make it hard to produce exciting mission options. I know some will scream about using options to spawn enemy AI etc., however, the whole point of building good missions is to NOT spawn anyone ever -- this makes it possible for the players to actually perform recon (remember the second word in GRAW) in order to figure out what is going on before they start killing things.

I wonder, did Grin bother to create a mission where at least some part of the mission requires you to not kill each and every tango you see?

Alpha Squad / Buehgler

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All the things that already have been mentioned also worry me. Though there is no exact date on when the editor will be released I found some other answers by GRIN regarding the modding/scripting capabillities of GRAW2:

There is a COOP campaign (the single player campaign) with the benefit that in GRAW2, Mitchell is not the one who has to do all the good stuff for the mission to advance. (Any ghost can placce a bomb now!)

On purpose (and perhaps due to time) we haven't supplied everything you'd ever wish for when it comes to missions, so:

Think "modding"

All multiplayer game modes are based on a system we call "Custom Game Mode"

which means every single game mode created is based on the same shell - only with variables and mission script separating them... We've had a Starcraft crazy scripter putting in huge amounts of functions for the missions (thanks Jocke).

Some we used - some are there for you to discover...

Want to make missions where you escort a fuel trailer through a desert landscape?

or just a game of "Tank Rally Mayhem".... it's up to you

:D

GRAW2 uses XML as the scripting language. Although the commands have changed some, which is why I'm working on a new document.

An Igor editor isn't key to the modding success, though it helps the newbies (like myself) to get a head start. Hell, I know many GR scripers after a while stopped scripting via Igor but did it directly in the mission scripts. Everything can be learned as long as the documentation of how it works is included. Since GRIN (Wolfsong) is on it, I thrust it to be in good hands!

My verdict will come after the release of the editor tools and tutorials.

:grin1:

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verdict will come after release fo editor

(that is the key to all of this)

to say GRAW2 will or wont be the next GR COOP is preemptive.

certainly in terms of gameplay it is - but to write off the game until we have seen the editor is crazy.

i will say this though which worried me - i was playing with 4 on a server tonight in a mission - the moving tank and chopper ingame were jumping around a lot - hope they wont cause issues on a different server.

Bueghler is right about the mission dedicated Democharge - you cant give everyone the ability to place demos or you lose the protect the guy with the demos element.

i like the way random spawns of the ai so far.

i like the way the tanks in the missions kick your ass if your'r enot careful.

i like that we actually have choppers flying aorund in a mp game.

theres a hell of a lot going for this game - lets just wait and see.

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OK Sleepdoc, it's your turn.

LOL. You got me pegged.

My opinion is well documented by now. But to summarize.

I like GRAW2. I give it an 84%

It is short on content for coop, but I trust the mod community will get what they need and make it long on content.

In todays world of PC tac-sim games, I would rather have a good foundation and good tools (read: let the map makers and modders create the long legs via content), than have a bunch of conetnt that isnt worth playing. In other words, i accept GRiNs apparent strategy to make a cool game premise and mechanic and tools with their limited resources and lean on the comunity to add content. Otherwise, we might not have anything. for those who aregue "I payed 50 bucks for whats in the box ...", well .... ok. Careful what you ask for in this age of rarely seen tac sims.

i want my campaign coop features back for the squad leader .... Waaaa WWWAAAAAA.

OK. I'm done crying .... for now....

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Each to there own i guess.

I`m still playing GR1 2-3 times a week with my crowd. Can`t beat it! Tried Armed Assault, Op Flashpoint, various others too. All lasted a week on my PC. Just not my cup of tea.

Now playing with a few guys these last few days, running through the missions again and again, I`m having a lot of fun. Game is stable for me and running smooth as anything. Overall gameplay is great. You do not have to shoot everyone on the map, you can take many different approaches to an objective, reading the scripts you will be able to make some very interesting missions too.

For anyone who has not played it yet with there team, to be put off in anyway, is bad.

As it is, Lightspeed`s post says it all for me. Looking forward to the editor release and seeing what people will be able to do with it. From my perspective, as another co-op junkie, I`m holding high hopes for modding to an extent, but organising a Tournie is still looking bleak. Refer to Colin`s post.

Tinker

:D

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[...... On normal Co-op there is no leader.

Right. that's teh problem. In GRAW1 coop, you could designate squads and leaders and then respawn on the leader. I have no idea why they took that out. its a fun feature to have that keeps squads together who like to play with respawn.

either you play no respawn and thats cool. Or you play respawn and you want this feature back so you can reform on your leader and spend less time running across the map and more time reformed with your squad.

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Don't get me wrong here. I am in no way hacking or bagging on GRIN. Like I had posted graphics and sound are way above the curve with this game.

What I am saying is that what we have now, and what is being promised is not all that differant from GRAW. Which left many a Co-op junkie out in the cold with a bad taste in our mouths.

We were promised many of the same things with GRAW that are being promised with GRAW2. They never happend with 1. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, not that likely to happen.

I am waiting to see what we get as I did with GRAW but I'm not holding my breath on this one. This comming from past experiance.

Oh and Buegh I did'nt buy it, I won it in a draw at EB games here. I would have been really miffed if I had paid the $50 Canadian for this.

But to be quite honest I don't think we are going to see the things we were able to do with [GR] here in GRAW2.

I could script a number of differant senerios depending on what the team did or did'nt do.

I could reassign tango responces numerous times depending on what did or did not happen. And not by teleporting them either. This causes huge problems if a team chooses to split up and try for one objective while scouting out another. All of the sudden a group of tangos appears in your back pocket and your toast.

I could change objectives depending again on what did and did not happen. I could add or take away or modify.

As a team you had the choice to go stealth or loud and proud, and I was able to change responces and objectives to follow what a team decided to do. Sneak around and the tango numbers and reactions were small. Go loud and the reactions were a lot bigger and more aggresive.

A team could stay together or split up into smaller groups to acomplish multipul objectives. A team could take any approach they wanted to acomplish an objective and do them in the order they wished, unless the objective was time sensitive. But they still could approach it any way they wanted. ie we will do objective 3 and 4. Then if we are still good we will work on 1 and 2. If not we will bail out.

I can only hope that some of these things are possible with GRAW2 but as I said, I've been burned before so I'm not sticking my hand in there again untill I know it's out.

Edited by Creatch
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Perhaps a reason for optimism:

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do. ;)

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Perhaps a reason for optimism:

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do. ;)

It is these and other comments from GRiNers that keep me in the positive perspective.

I have not ever seen GRiN and its representatives say things that are blatantly untrue. So I think he is telling us something here and I am waiting to see what he means.....

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