Still very Linear.....

[Lightspeed]

Don't get me wrong, Im very happy with the game and the planning you can do in most maps to change your approach, but, to make the final step to Ghost Recon COOP the missions need to be less linear.

At present, you have to do one objective followed by the next etc etc. (I do like the fact that if you knock out reinforcements vehicles early it reduces the number of tangoes you have to face off with later).

But, what added to GR replayability was the ability to choose the order in which you completed objectives.

It will take more work from GRIN of course in map and scripting development, but I feel if GRIN can nail this open style of play and strategic planning, then GRIN could cement its place as an A-grade Dev Team well into the future.

If you keep it linear then you have to compete with all of the other linear fps like CoD, etc.

[zeroalpha]

well said that man

[NoQuarter]

Gotta stay in the zone or your HUD will go down, Lighty.

I thought/wished they had got rid of this stuff. It should be up to the player to stay on course, not the script.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

[Sleepdoc-iBeta]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. ...............................

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

Yep. I think you guys actually already sort of indicated this in previous threads as well. This is why, depite all my harping on this or that, I always try to state that I think this game is well worth the money........

I have no doubt that the modders will do crazy stuff with your tools when they come out. <HINT HINT> and it makes perfect sense why you limited how crazy your stuff is. QA time. QA Risk. Resource control.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what the modders can do. I am sure GRiN has every bit of the talent they need to do wild stuff too, but they cannot afford to do so. For the modders, the sky's the limit.

Of course, for the modders, expect lots of bugs etc in the maps that emerge ....

Edited July 22, 2007 by Sleepdoc

[kretzj]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

Just curious... when is the editor arriving?

-jk

[=warcloud=]

Not only is this game linear but juarez, el-paso come texas whatever the locale but each level/map i have played on they all look the same, rolling hills and shanty towns, what a boring rubbish setting for a game. At least graw1 had you fighting in the city, what a let down and so far graw2 is imho not worth £30 i paid for it.

[Lethal.Ambition]

It just ticks me off beyond believe when I look on the satellite and see no enemies and all of a sudden they are attacking me because the game just spawned them! I wish they would all spawn at the beginning of the map. Ugh.

[dporter]

I have only spent an evening playing the game, and I wanted to put that out there so people know the extent of my knowledge with the game, but with that being said I feel a had a really different experience with the game.

I was playing the 12 man coop mode with a friend of mine over a lan server and we played the mission where it is a night version of the first level of the game. The AI on these coop games by the way are insane, very good shots from long distance. Anyways, once we crossed the bridge we were able to decide which objective we wanted to do first, head towards the leads last main objective, blow up the Adat, or go straight ahead for the other objective which I can't remember at the moment. It was a blast playing that map and at times we would work together on one objective or we would split up and work individually, so I think the potential is definately there. This is of course a lot different then the coop campaign where it does seem a lot linear.

So far I am enjoying the game a lot. I look forward to what others can do with this game.

[Papa6]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

Wolfie, i appreciate your candor in all matters of GRAW2. I just appreciated being able to choose my route and not being GRAW1'ized to be forced down x road all the time. Wolfie, can we, in the scripting be able to place maybe zones on a map for varying enemy placements so we don't get that, "well...we know one guy will be behind the car by the checkpoint." and have him maybe 50 meters in either direction from that zone? this scripting you are speaking of, is THAT open and powerful!?!

Edited July 23, 2007 by Papa6

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

Wolfie, i appreciate your candor in all matters of GRAW2. I just appreciated being able to choose my route and not being GRAW1'ized to be forced down x road all the time. Wolfie, can we, in the scripting be able to place maybe zones on a map for varying enemy placements so we don't get that, "well...we know one guy will be behind the car by the checkpoint." and have him maybe 50 meters in either direction from that zone? this scripting you are speaking of, is THAT open and powerful!?!

There are a few ways to very enemy placements.

In SP the level designers have mainly used random spawns, which is probably most reliable as it's TOTALLY random which unit it will activate each time you reload a save game it will be run a new random check for each enemy trigger you come over. Of course the main bulk of the enemies are not random, only additional units that are not cornerstones of the mission. The downside to this method is that you can't adjust already spawned units, but you are sure that they are in a desired area when the player arrives.

The second way is to use zones and "move to" orders that are activated by a random script, like you do with vehicles. This is good in that it can use units that have already been in spawned and redirect them. The downside is that you have to rely on the AI to find it's way to the zone, so you never know how long it will take for them to get there. Especially as when you want random missions you want the randomness to come from very different directions so those elements are noticed (look at the snipers in mission4), and that would require long distances for the AI to travel. Another downside is that you can't give then a new patrol path, like you can assign units in the editor, which you always can on units you spawn as in the first method.

The third way is to use the new teleport function. This lets you use already spawned unit and send them to another position fast. This way you are sure that they are there on time. The downside is that you'll have to use some zone check so the entire team is in a location that the player can't see, or they will see them disappear in front of their eyes. The same thing can of course happen when they teleport back in, but at that time you always know that they are gathered together, and it's the same thing as with spawning in a new unit so it's something level designers should be used to handling. Once again in this case you can't give them a new patrol path after they teleport in.

So there are ups and downs for all ways. But there are choices to make with the mission script in GRAW2.

It just ticks me off beyond believe when I look on the satellite and see no enemies and all of a sudden they are attacking me because the game just spawned them! I wish they would all spawn at the beginning of the map. Ugh.

All enemies are spawned in locations so that their spawn location should not be visible in the satellite view. So you should never see an enemy pop up on the satellite. Which is not what I think you meant either. But they do like to stay indoors until you get closer so progress slowly.

Spawning them all at the beginning of the mission would probably "kill" most players computers. But you're free to try. Open the mission.xml and move all "ActivateGroup" lines to the "start mission" event.

[Colin]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

Just curious... when is the editor arriving?

-jk

Refer back to the Ubisoft soon thread

[Tinker]

I`ve been reading through the mission scripts for Missions 1 - 10, and I personally believe there is going to be a whole lot of fun to come, when the editor is released.

Wolfsong is 110% right about the ability to mess with the variables. Now i just have to learn the editor when it arrives, and I`ll be putting a lot of time into this also.

Tinker

[V.P.]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work.

Hmm..is that really a valid reason?`To handicap some scripting because "QA has to be minimalized"?

I understand that you are under time constrictions, but other games seems to manage.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work.

Hmm..is that really a valid reason?`To handicap some scripting because "QA has to be minimalized"?

I understand that you are under time constrictions, but other games seems to manage.

Herd of logarithmic curves? That's how QA work evolves with added variations.

[Lethal.Ambition]

Spawning them all at the beginning of the mission would probably "kill" most players computers. But you're free to try. Open the mission.xml and move all "ActivateGroup" lines to the "start mission" event.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

Spawning them all at the beginning of the mission would probably "kill" most players computers. But you're free to try. Open the mission.xml and move all "ActivateGroup" lines to the "start mission" event.

Actually, that would make all missions with random enemies harder as that would activate all possible groups even...

[Lethal.Ambition]

Spawning them all at the beginning of the mission would probably "kill" most players computers. But you're free to try. Open the mission.xml and move all "ActivateGroup" lines to the "start mission" event.

Actually, that would make all missions with random enemies harder as that would activate all possible groups even...

If I set that, would it work server side or would other clients be out of sync. Think of the possibilities.... You can be seriously pinned down or flanked by more than 10 enemies at a time. I haven't tested it yet but I'm salivating at the thought. No respawn...

[Burawura]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

OK First of all Wolfsong if you read this, thanks much to you and the others at GRIN for making a great game with GRAW 2. I am enjoying it very much so far, with a few (major) exceptions:

"a bit linear" is a huge understatement. This game is about as linear as it gets, in every way other than kit choices.

The worst part is the maps. It was very disappointing looking at all the urban maps for the first time via the tacmap, thinking I will be able to split my team up going different ways and form a tactical approach plan, only to find that 90% of the alternative routes are blocked off by rubble, burnt-out vehicles, fences, walls, and artificial-looking ground features, forcing my entire team through a chokepoint again and again. I don't care how much work it takes to do it good, this is NOT good mapping.

Then there is the "natural" ground terrain. The way your mappers constructed the ground surfaces themselves, aside from being highly unrealistic and looking just plain silly, also contributes to the linearity of the maps. All those ledges and raised surfaces just restrict player movement options. What's wrong with having flat surfaces? Since when does relatively flat outdoor terrain have these huge plateaus and ledges sticking up out of the ground everywhere? I am inclined to think that this is a HUGE turnoff to any original GR player.

Then there's the scripting, and spawning enemies in the middle of the game. Having enemies appearing out of thin air, sometimes immediately behind my team and sometimes directly in front of my team and in plain view, is ridiculous. It completely spoils the game for me. I understand scripting is necessary, but when scripting is relied upon too much, these are the results.

The result of these problems for me is that GRAW 2 feels very restrictive compared to GR. The sense of danger and suspense are neutered when freedom and planning are taken away from the player. So although as I said, GRAW2 is a great game for me so far, these deficiencies really hold it back, and keep it from becoming a "real" Ghost Recon game. I do like it, but so far it's not what I was hoping for. Hopefully the MP maps are less restrictive than the SP and COOP maps

[ROCO*AFZ*]

The game has to be kept a bit linear to minimize the needed QA work. Adding multiple script paths isn't too hard, but making sure all of them work every time the mission is changed someway takes loads of time.

With that said you can of course read between the lines that modders will be able to script how non-linear they want. Variables are in and with those it's easy to do.

OK First of all Wolfsong if you read this, thanks much to you and the others at GRIN for making a great game with GRAW 2. I am enjoying it very much so far, with a few (major) exceptions:

"a bit linear" is a huge understatement. This game is about as linear as it gets, in every way other than kit choices.

The worst part is the maps. It was very disappointing looking at all the urban maps for the first time via the tacmap, thinking I will be able to split my team up going different ways and form a tactical approach plan, only to find that 90% of the alternative routes are blocked off by rubble, burnt-out vehicles, fences, walls, and artificial-looking ground features, forcing my entire team through a chokepoint again and again. I don't care how much work it takes to do it good, this is NOT good mapping.

Then there is the "natural" ground terrain. The way your mappers constructed the ground surfaces themselves, aside from being highly unrealistic and looking just plain silly, also contributes to the linearity of the maps. All those ledges and raised surfaces just restrict player movement options. What's wrong with having flat surfaces? Since when does relatively flat outdoor terrain have these huge plateaus and ledges sticking up out of the ground everywhere? I am inclined to think that this is a HUGE turnoff to any original GR player.

Then there's the scripting, and spawning enemies in the middle of the game. Having enemies appearing out of thin air, sometimes immediately behind my team and sometimes directly in front of my team and in plain view, is ridiculous. It completely spoils the game for me. I understand scripting is necessary, but when scripting is relied upon too much, these are the results.

The result of these problems for me is that GRAW 2 feels very restrictive compared to GR. The sense of danger and suspense are neutered when freedom and planning are taken away from the player. So although as I said, GRAW2 is a great game for me so far, these deficiencies really hold it back, and keep it from becoming a "real" Ghost Recon game. I do like it, but so far it's not what I was hoping for. Hopefully the MP maps are less restrictive than the SP and COOP maps

Hmm i don't play singleplayer... but Wolf said they don't spawn out of thin air, but in buildings. I imagine if you checked the buildings beforehand you would see them and have a fight instead of having them come out and shoot you in the back.

Again though i haven't played the SP, just repeating what was said.

[Rocky]

"a bit linear" is a huge understatement. This game is about as linear as it gets, in every way other than kit choices.

The worst part is the maps. It was very disappointing looking at all the urban maps for the first time via the tacmap, thinking I will be able to split my team up going different ways and form a tactical approach plan, only to find that 90% of the alternative routes are blocked off by rubble, burnt-out vehicles, fences, walls, and artificial-looking ground features, forcing my entire team through a chokepoint again and again. I don't care how much work it takes to do it good, this is NOT good mapping.

Some of the maps allow non linear gameplay, allowing team splitting and alternate routes, forming up sweet crossfires etc. Combined with random scripting events, or differing paths that some missions take according to what has happened in the mission previously, you can get a good non linear experience with replayability.

The problem is, the promise of that was made with mission 1, after that many (okay most) of the maps are exactly as you describe, frustratingly prescriptive about your movements.

The one ray of hope, is that modders can produce more maps of the kind of open layout displayed by the first mission.

[Sleepdoc-iBeta]

The one ray of hope, is that modders can produce more maps of the kind of open layout displayed by the first mission.

Yup. the game totally supports non linear environments and non linear objectives. but "Support" does not a non linear map and mission make.

it takes support and mission makers and TOOLS.

I hope the tools come out soon. Its the only apex missing from the triangle.

[BigBumpy]

Yes, between the obvious scripted 'let loose the bad guys from this alley' events and the fact that most of the rubble was there to funnel you through the levels, I too agree way too linear and could be much better.

Bring on the map editor.

[Toniezz]

There are a few ways to very enemy placements.

... The downside to this method is that you can't adjust already spawned units, but you are sure that they are in a desired area when the player arrives.

... Another downside is that you can't give then a new patrol path, like you can assign units in the editor, which you always can on units you spawn as in the first method.

... Once again in this case you can't give them a new patrol path after they teleport in.

So there are ups and downs for all ways. But there are choices to make with the mission script in GRAW2.

so already spawned units only have one trigger event for their path. You can't let for instance reinforcements come in via one path (to a building or such) and then give them a patrolling path that is 'looped'.?

So, the following is not possible:

1 spawn an unit at edge of map (reinforcements are inbound)

2 give them a path to an objective (for instance a building in the center of the map)

3 once at that location (zone), give them a new path, patrolling the building?

So also,

1 an unit has noticed you presence and go investigate your last seen location

2 you pull back and conceal yourselves

3 after a time trigger that the units can't find anything, do they get back on their usual patrolling path?

Ok, I am carrying away. I am just curious thats all

Edited July 25, 2007 by Toniezz

[Buehgler_AS]

So, the following is not possible:

1 spawn an unit at edge of map (reinforcements are inbound)

2 give them a path to an objective (for instance a building in the center of the map)

3 once at that location (zone), give them a new path, patrolling the building?

So also,

1 an unit has noticed you presence and go investigate your last seen location

2 you pull back and conceal yourselves

3 after a time trigger that the units can't find anything, do they get back on their usual patrolling path?

Ok, I am carrying away. I am just curious thats all

I have not dropped the $$ for GRAW2 (nor have I won a copy like my buddy Creatch), so I am not speaking from any position of authority on GRAW2. What I do know is that when I discovered that you could not do these sorts of things in GRAW, I (and my Alpha Squad colleagues) lost all interest in scripting/map construction for GRAW. From our perspective if you can not have "trigger plans" (e.g. sequences of actions that are assigned to an AI group mid game based on current circumstances) it really becomes essentially impossible to build interesting non-linear missions. Specifically, it seems impossible to have a tango standing in some location that your group is required to sneak past, then to have that same tango come running up on your six after you finally engage your target location. This sequence of sneaking/reconning, attacking and dealing with the ensuing responses is what always made GR missions a blast. It is unfortunate that UBI/Grin still seem to miss this fact.

Oh well, I'll go back to playing more ArmA and keeping my fingers crossed until there are some definitive answers about the functionality of the editor and scripting system.