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Hi,

I've been a GRAW player since the beginning and enjoyed EVERY version for different reasons, unlike some others!!

There's a lot of speculation, guesswork and even some some knowledgeable comment on this forum as to where PC GRAW fits in the market. How big is the GRAW for PC market? Does anybody know?

Sure, consoles have become the 'holy grail' for publishers because they mean low level standardisation and a single platform development costs but does that mean there's no longer a viable market for a PC version? Are we destined to lose the choice between playing an arcade, button pressing dumbed down version of our favourite games or can we look forward to a continued supply of 'challenging' games/simulations that the PC can provide when developed by organisations like GRIN and previously Red Storm?

I for one will never lower my expectations and succumb to pushing buttons on a console's remote to to play the simplistic 'run and gun' genre that they offer. I've plenty of other interests to follow but would regret not being able to immerse myself in something as satisfying as GRAW2.

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im not an expert but a SWAG of mine would be

40k to 60k copies sold total in US...

where as the 360 version of GRAW 2 will probably be close 500k sold in the US

That says it all, doesn't it? Goodbye PC gaming!!!!

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im not an expert but a SWAG of mine would be

40k to 60k copies sold total in US...

where as the 360 version of GRAW 2 will probably be close 500k sold in the US

That says it all, doesn't it? Goodbye PC gaming!!!!

PC gaming will still be here as long as the MMOs and RTSs are around... 8million paying 14.99 a month for WoW

you do the math... there is still plenty of money in the pc gaming world

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once the consoles become old the PC will take over Again and then the console people will be asking "how do I install this mod on my console"....

its a continous circle... once the Dev's meet the hardware constraints they then go to the PC market to improve newer gaming technology

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That says it all, doesn't it? Goodbye PC gaming!!!!

I have been reading these sorts of comments that follow this logic for years.

The market has shifted, but PC gaming isn't going anywhere. Hard core Tac sims are going to be fewer and farther between, but PC gaming isn't going anywhere...

Look what is on the horizon...

COD4

Crysis

Black foot studio's game ....

Many others. ( i know crysis and COD4 are not hardcore tac sims or anything, but they are high visibility PC games ... and the PC is a platform those games re commited to)

ArmA is here now.

The guys who made Falcon 4.0:allied force are quietly making their next harcore flight sim

The guys who made lomac are making a hardcore helicopter sim called Blackshark.

The hard core gamer's choices of realism based games are getting fewer. Sure. but not extinct.

They were supposed to be extinct 10 year ago. Chicken little was wrong.

Edited by Sleepdoc
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Black foot studio's game ....

Ground Branch

Not a name that sticks to you mind, sadly. Had to look it up to post it here. :P I would have reconsidered naming the game something else that people would remember at first sight. Still think it's gonna be cool though.

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I think its less that consoles are killing PC gaming than companies like UBI throwing all of their resources at consoles to the detriment of PC gamers. This is what led to the rather abrupt death of Rainbow Six as we knew it. UBI, I think, has bought wholesale into the premise of micropayments as a sustainable economic model. Its like all the costs of a MMO, without all the rewards.

Of course, the whole "port as quickly and cheaply as possible" phenomenon hurts us too. It honestly feels like UBI, and companies like them, hold board meetings that play out like this:

Exec1: ...and that concludes todays bus-

Exec2: (interrupting) I almost forgot! What are we going to do about the PC market?

Exec3: We have a PC market?

Exec2: They were responsible for approximately 16% of sales in FY 2006.

Exec3: 16? Wow.

Exec1: How much for Xbox? Both of them I mean?

Exec2: About double that.

Exec1: I see. (thinks for a moment) Let's poop on them. I'll bet they'll still pay for it.

Exec3: I like that.

Exec2: But-

Exec1: Meeting adjourned.

Those numbers, by the way, are from UBI's investor report from their corporate webpage, and it took some digging to find them.

I'm honestly convinced that despite commercial successes like Half-Life 2 and the Battlefield series, certain companies, UBI amongst them, remain convinced that the only way to make money is to keep making new games, and not allow communities to develop around the games they've already produced. Half-Life 2 is amongst the greatest selling games of all time because Valve knew the value of a solid modding community. Counterstrike and Day of Defeat have become games unto themselves. UBI, on the other hand, refuses to admit that people might want to play anything other than precisely what is put in front of them. Look at the mod support for Raven Shield. Or Rainbow Six: Vegas. Or even GRAW, for that matter. Compare that to the old Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six games, or the original Half-Life. Or the Unreals, or Doom III, the Quakes, even Operation: Flashpoint. It just feels like PC gaming is dieing because our favorite franchises are being murdered.

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PC gaming isn't going anywhere. There are more than enough PC's out there to make PC games profitable.

The days where the PC reigned supreme as the game platform are definately over. Back then, it was the only platform with the necessary technical capabilities. No more.

You don't go into a depression because our favorite, edgy underground movie doesn't get the big movie treatment but you have to watch it on DVD do you?

More likely, the divide between PC and consoles and the games for them, will gradually dissapear.

PC games have been butchered in recent years, true. But then again, console games have been butchered from the word go.

Clever developers and publishers will eventually develop different games for different genres and differnet customer segments (i.e. gamer types), regardless of platform.

I generally don't game on consoles because the type of games mostly found there aren't the ones I like. But in truth I don't really care what platform I play on, as long as the games are the kind of games I want to play.

I like traditional, non-arcade games. I don't like dumbed-down games for the masses. I like gaming with mouse, keyboard and joystick. I don't like hand held controllers. Give me what I want and I don't give a hoot if it says Playstation or Hewlett Packard on the box.

Respectfully

krise madsen

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I for one will never lower my expectations and succumb to pushing buttons on a console's remote to to play the simplistic 'run and gun' genre that they offer.

If you gave an honest effort to try the XBOX 360 I think you may find that this not the case.

I am working on an analysis of comments I received from various PC gamers that are giving XBOX 360 a try and enjoying it. Apparently a lot of PC guys are enjoying both platforms quite a bit.

Surely you are entitied to your own opinoin. It sure seems like more and more PC guys would not agree with your generaliztion though.

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?...e=0#Post2262030

another one here

This is ONE example of about 15 places I have a thread like this cooking. The VAST majority of PC gamers replied in this way:

Ick: Are you finding that you can have the same kind of game experience on the XBOX 360 that you had in PC gaming? If not, how does it differ?

PC Gamer that recently purchased XBOX 360: Yes, very much so.

[exact quote mind you]

I mean have your own opinion for sure...I am just saying don't turn a blind eye to an opportunity that may exist....especially if you are feeling "let down" or "not satisfied"...or as you say "would regret not being able to immerse myself in something."

[ick backs away slowly with hands up to show having no weapons. Prepares for potential backlash.]

Edited by Ick
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I never owned a console until this christmas. I now own a PS3.

I love the living room, big screen thing. I hate the Contrller.

Tomorrow, my FragFX from Splitfish arrives. It is the first sanctioned Mouse of teh PS3.

You can read about it here.

www.splitfish.com

If it plays well, like a mouse is supposed to, I'll probably cut my teeth on Vegas and COD3. Not tac sims to be sure. But if this thing catches on, who knows where it could lead.

The reviews on the FRAGFX are all top nothc. They say it breaks open the PC-style, FPS player market on the PS3. God i hope so.

What if guys like Blackfoot studios stayed true to their NORG roots, but still built their game for consoles too? then what? And what if the mouse works and feels like a PC? Where might the gaming systems be going?

I'm looking forward to where sony PS3 is going. MS won't sanction a mouse. Sony did and I get my first one tomorrow.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I think the future is unclear......

Edited by Sleepdoc
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I love the living room, big screen thing. I hate the Contrller.

I have the big screen and the good controler - mouse - and PC in the living room ;) . And the bad controler ;) and turbo noisy console - 360 ;) .

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there is a multitude of things hacking away at pc gaming but I wont carry on about it. Yeah this happened when the ps2 came out, however back then i didnt see shops clearing the pc section out of their store in favor of console games as is the case today. I actually have to look to find certain games to buy( looking online and going store to store). Back in the ps2 era there were loads of pc games everywhere so they were very easy to find. It boils down to this> Pc's will exist without gaming.....gaming will exist without being on the pc such as mac does...I dont want to see it come to this and I dont want to see my choice of games narrow down to an occasional FPS or rts game. I like all genres of games and the console just doesnt fullfill my gaming needs.

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I for one will never lower my expectations and succumb to pushing buttons on a console's remote to to play the simplistic 'run and gun' genre that they offer.

If you gave an honest effort to try the XBOX 360 I think you may find that this not the case.

I am working on an analysis of comments I received from various PC gamers that are giving XBOX 360 a try and enjoying it. Apparently a lot of PC guys are enjoying both platforms quite a bit.

Surely you are entitied to your own opinoin. It sure seems like more and more PC guys would not agree with your generaliztion though.

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?...e=0#Post2262030

another one here

This is ONE example of about 15 places I have a thread like this cooking. The VAST majority of PC gamers replied in this way:

Ick: Are you finding that you can have the same kind of game experience on the XBOX 360 that you had in PC gaming? If not, how does it differ?

PC Gamer that recently purchased XBOX 360: Yes, very much so.

[exact quote mind you]

I mean have your own opinion for sure...I am just saying don't turn a blind eye to an opportunity that may exist....especially if you are feeling "let down" or "not satisfied"...or as you say "would regret not being able to immerse myself in something."

[ick backs away slowly with hands up to show having no weapons. Prepares for potential backlash.]

I'm a die-hard PC gamer. If you gave me the choice between a PC version and a 360 version of the same exact game, I'd pick the PC version. Why? I'll be able to mod it, use the king of all controllers (KB + M), and have that "personal" experience.

I don't understand how people love the console experience so much. You have a giant HDTV that isn't completely crystal clear, audio that isn't completely defined (Yes, even Dolby Digital has it's problems), and the controller. The controller....ugh. I don't complain about it when I'm playing, but I'm more so more at home with the KB + M, I might as well engrave "WASD" on the tips of my fingers on my left hand.

Thank god that Epic decided to port Gears to the PC. All of the problems with the 360 controller are now gone, and that shotgun melee + blast 'em combo will finally be effective. Gears is the only reason (As well as Dead Rising) that I kept my 360.

PC gaming gives you a sense of accomplishment that no console game can give you.

I will always be a PC gamer, despite how "bad" the system may be doing financially IN THE US.. Outside of the US, the PC is the largest gaming platform in the world.

Edited by Agent Smith
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Despite my rantings I do keep an 'open mind' and watch changes in technology. I actually have a WII !!!! (no, not a wee) :P It's great fun at simulating sports activities (tennis, bowling etc) but I wouldn't want to use the handset to fly an aircraft or manipulate the weapons in GRAW, for example.

Convergence is a popular term in the industry and the mobile phone is a prime example of how different technologies are coming together. The PC, in terms of human interactive devices, seems to have been locked into Kb & M since it's introduction but I've absolutely no doubt that it will evolve. The iPhone illustrates that with impressive touch screen software. Speech recognition also seems to have gone into hibernation on PC but it's an input system I think will eventually replace the Kb & M.

The preoccupation with speeding up PC 'internals' and improving graphics has caused the PC's human interface to be neglected, but again, I think we'll soon see some interesting innovations here too.

Ick

No backlash my friend, I respect the views of others and welcome them. Thanks for your input.

Mike.

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I think there need to be some company's that fill the niches. GRAW will never be mainstream, but when I see how COD2 is being played online I am not by far sorry for that..... [GR] may have had a bigger fanbase but there were cheats, runner/gunnertypes and more trouble too.

I started playing online when GRAW1 came out before that I used my home-lan and my brothers in law for that, but since we all have kids (coming) the time we can share became very limited.....

I like the GRAW community, I hardly ever think that the online games are ###### because of some hacker/cheater/teamkiller/spawnnader and especially with GRAW2 this has become even better.

The only things I miss are mods and a good ladder, of both I'm confident they will come soon and be more fun than the GRAW1 ones (especially the laddering was a bit poor due to lack of active clans and too many ladders only used by 3-4 active clans... which makes it sad that clanbase will not pick up GRAW2 since they had a system where you would lose points if you did not match.....)

Whell my conclusion is that there is a market for these kind of games, and that only one or two are gonna make my standard.... Off course I will play COD4 but I guess that won't be online for much time, I played COD2 only in SP, and did not even finish SP because GRAW took too much time.....lol

The key to a succesfull game in my eyes are:

- the communication with the fanboys

- moddabillity (and I mean map/character/mission modding not putting in elephants or such stuff like that)

- the good balance between realism and playeability, with which I say not everybody can be pleased, go play ARMA, or something else if you want to ride vehicles, go play vegas if you want bling bling, go play..... everyone has his own taste, and a small niche in that is very well filled by GRAW

Edited by Forrester
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I don't go anywhere near console games - Ive seen too many excellent series totally nerfed by this thing. Why cant people see that consoles are a step backwards - why would anyone prefer a tv screen over a purpose built monitor, why would anyone prefer tv sound over a purpose built sound card? Not to mention everything else thats wrong with the damn things.

The worlds gone mad...

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I cannot speak to issues like:

  • "the sound system on my PC is 11.3% better than your optic 5.1 on the XBOX"
  • "the vast majority of XBOX 360 players are 12 year olds"
  • "I will never find quality gamers to play with on XBOX like I have on the PC"
  • "there is a 9.375% visible quality difference between my 24" monitor and your 52" HDTV"
  • "If I can't modd it, I won't play it"
  • "there is positively no way I could ever like the controller"
  • "There is absolutely positively no possible way any console game ever could give you any sense of accomplishment whatsoever under any circumstances unconditionally and without exception or departure from said conclusion unequivocally"

Perhaps many of these statements are in fact true.

It has been my experience....ESPECIALLY since Christmas 2006...that there are a HUGE number of PC gamers that are playing XBOX 360 and absolutely loving it. In my own little corner of the world I peronally know and play with 15 guys that have tried it....and LOVE it. If I know 15...there has GOT to be a lot more than that.

I am not saying your reasons are not justified...the PC you are using may very well be superior in EVERY possible way. That doesn't mean that PC gaming is the only quality experience out there though.

I am just saying that something must be changing. Otherwise these PC guys wouldn't be telling me that they are having the same kind of game experience on the XBOX 360 that they had in PC gaming. Many more than my lilted corner of 15 have said "Yes, very much so." Not "yeah, it is not as good but OK" but rather "This is the same experience as on the PC, I am having a blast".

Again, you are entitled to your preference....but there is a lot of indication that something isn't the same any longer.

Edited by Ick
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Unfortunately, this might be the last game I buy this year. Gotta start saving my money for Christmas presents. If I was to get anything, I'd say it would be Quake Wars. I love these tactical games but I also get a craving for all out ground pounding like BF 2142.

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I cannot speak to issues like:

  • "the sound system on my PC is 11.3% better than your optic 5.1 on the XBOX"
  • "the vast majority of XBOX 360 players are 12 year olds"
  • "I will never find quality gamers to play with on XBOX like I have on the PC"
  • "there is a 9.375% visible quality difference between my 24" monitor and your 52" HDTV"
  • "If I can't modd it, I won't play it"
  • "there is positively no way I could ever like the controller"
  • "There is absolutely positively no possible way any console game ever could give you any sense of accomplishment whatsoever under any circumstances unconditionally and without exception or departure from said conclusion unequivocally"

Perhaps many of these statements are in fact true.

It has been my experience....ESPECIALLY since Christmas 2006...that there are a HUGE number of PC gamers that are playing XBOX 360 and absolutely loving it. In my own little corner of the world I peronally know and play with 15 guys that have tried it....and LOVE it. If I know 15...there has GOT to be a lot more than that.

I am not saying your reasons are not justified...the PC you are using may very well be superior in EVERY possible way. That doesn't mean that PC gaming is the only quality experience out there though.

I am just saying that something must be changing. Otherwise these PC guys wouldn't be telling me that they are having the same kind of game experience on the XBOX 360 that they had in PC gaming. Many more than my lilted corner of 15 have said "Yes, very much so." Not "yeah, it is not as good but OK" but rather "This is the same experience as on the PC, I am having a blast".

Again, you are entitled to your preference....but there is a lot of indication that something isn't the same any longer.

To be honest, although that list is valid there is one thing missing, and its the absolute bottom line in why I dont touch console games - its the limitations that a console puts on a game. The best illustration I can think of is the sequel to Deus Ex - Deus Ex Invisible War. What a disappointment it was to many fans who expected more of the same but instead got a chopped up and shruken mess.

I'm not against people who like consoles or console games, but I am against publishers who seek to ruin pc game series. The recent gag on GRIN by UBI was an interesting move and it makes you wonder what it was UBI were trying to achieve. Thats open to speculation for now - but when you talk about change the only change I have seen in recent times is a steady downwards spiral in general for pc games. Sad but true.

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The preoccupation with speeding up PC 'internals' and improving graphics has caused the PC's human interface to be neglected, but again, I think we'll soon see some interesting innovations here too.

Not everyone has neglected the interface between human and PC. But I will admit that in order to get a good peripheral to bridge that gap, you gotta be willing to drop some buckage ....

See the thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS

See the Saitek X-52 pro and X-52

See the Logitech g-15 keyboard

See the Logitech g-25 steering wheel

See the wide variety of programmable, multibutton mice

See the Naturalpoint TRACKIR wit the Pro CLip

See force feedback headphones ....

And last but not least ..... Drum roll please....

See the splitfish FragFX for the PS3 (this one is extremely important to watch, and it is selling like hot cakes which should tell everybody something......) I know. Its not a PC peripheral. Its a console peripheral. but its a console peripheral designed to give FPS fans a PC like feel (mouse). Actually it may just imrpove on the FPS PC interface by placing the accuracy of an aimongmouse in the right hand and mixing it with the naturqal movements of a thumb joystick in the left hand, to improve on KB use for that function. Check it out. it also places motion sensors oin the left hand as well for brisk movements translated onto the screen (the 6 axismovement controller part of the PS3 controller). Think about what this peripheral and its explosive popularity on inital relase means for what people want .... and how big the PC expereince still is.....

Is there room for better interface peripherals. you bet. But since I'm willing to spend at the higher end of the spectrum, I'm pretty happy right now with the peripherals available to me at the interface

Edited by Sleepdoc
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Hi Sleepdoc,

Perhaps I didn't make my point very well?

I wasn't saying that there aren't some sexy versions of the traditional interface peripherals out there!

What I should have said, maybe, is that the techniques we use to communicate/manipulate most frequently, speech and touch, have not attracted the development interest that button pressing has! Or so it seems?

Now somebody is going to quote an amazing new product, just about to be launched. :hmm:

Ok, so there's now the iPhone's very touchy screen and there's the WII (which in my opinion, has a somewhat limited repertoire) I don't know anything about this Splitfish FragXF gizmo so I can't comment but I'll have a look for it.

Imagine how good it would be to be able to issue voice commands to your GRAW team and respond to the 'clever dicks' on the cross com. Aviation sims are fortunate in that one of the PC's traditional input devices is an exact clone of the real thing (joystick) and there are other 'goodies' to be had if you spend the poundage (apologies to sleepdoc) Perhaps a facsimile Scar which projects an infrared spot or cross hairs, sensed by a screen attachment or embedded in the monitor, is too fanciful?

Yeah, I know :rolleyes: I'll make do with the Kb and Mouse for now. Mind you, I've got the Logitech MX1000 Laser which I've patched to 5 functions. Fire; reload; Scope; scroll through Xcom items and Use/activate. There are still 4 more I haven't used. Best mouse I've ever had. :thumbsup:

I make no comment about the programming development effort/costs involved to achieve these things but I'm sure it wouldn't be small.

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im not an expert but a SWAG of mine would be

40k to 60k copies sold total in US...

where as the 360 version of GRAW 2 will probably be close 500k sold in the US

That says it all, doesn't it? Goodbye PC gaming!!!!

PC gaming isn't dead, it simply has a platform that's giving it a run for it's money. GRAW 2 (PC) for example, is currently in second place out of thirty in the UK. While GRAW 2 for the 360, has sold more than 500,000 units thus far in the US alone, 11,000 of which were sold just last week.

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