Jump to content

Suggestions for GRAW 2 Gameplay Improvements


Recommended Posts

Hi guys, for those of you who don't know me, I'm Koroush Ghazi from TweakGuides.com. I wrote the GRAW 2 Tweak Guide - now fully updated for the retail release - which Rocky has previously posted on the front page of GR.net :)

I was lucky enough to buy GRAW 2 a few days ago when it was released here in Australia, and although I haven't played much SP, I've been playing a fair bit of Multiplayer and I really enjoy it. To their credit GRIN have done a great job with the overall feel and gameplay of GRAW 2 MP. It's one of the few online games I've actually enjoyed in recent times. Here are a couple of YouTube videos I have of some sample

and
retail version gameplay.

Now to the business end of the post. I have some suggestions based on what I've seen over the past few days, which I think are quite necessary for the game, and would be fairly simply for GRIN to implement via a patch. I thought I'd share them with you guys, perhaps also get your opinions on them. Here they are in order of importance to me:

  • Spawn Camping: This is the number one issue I have with this game, and one I think needs serious attention. I've seen a fair few players now who deliberately spawn camp and rack up a lot of kills because of it, almost ruining entire matches once they set up camp especially if they're an organised clan What's worse, it's almost impossible not to wind up by accident right in the enemy spawn at some point during the game, or have an enemy spawn right in front of you in deathmatch, even if you're not trying to spawn camp. For this reason, I think that spawn protect should be enabled by default and set to at least 8 seconds. When someone spawns they need a bit more time than currently allowed to actually get their bearings, spot an enemy, change weapons, get to cover, etc. 8 - 10 seconds I think is needed.
  • Grenade Launchers: I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the GL range should have a minimum, as this is both realistic, and prevents people using it as a spam weapon at short range (i.e a few feet away). GRAW 2 is a skill-based tactical shooter, and I really feel the grenade launcher having no minimum range really does go against the entire aim of the game, and cheapens gameplay. Even BF2 implemented a minimum distance for the 203 to prevent this tactic.
  • Spawning: I find the process of spawning to be confusing at times. Mainly when I hit the spawn limit and no spawns are left in a mode like Team Deathmatch, there should be an indicator showing how many times I can spawn if there is a spawn limit. This helps in determining the right strategy to use, and also helps discourage people from quitting and rejoining a server when their spawns run out unexpectedly, or spamming chat asking when they can spawn.
  • Teamkilling: Though I haven't had an issue with this yet, I know from the MP demo that tkers need a prominent message on their HUD, or a voice message clearly indicating that they have killed a friendly. New people who tk often have no idea they're tking. Of course those that do tk on purpose need an auto kick enabled by default on the server with a limit like 3 tks before being auto booted.

There are of course a range of bugs which I'm sure are known and have been discussed here, like the lack of Dynamic Shadows on GeForce 8 series cards/Forceware 160, sound issues, tagging issues in deathcam mode, etc. but I'm confident those can be straightened out by GRIN and Nvidia in due course.

I really do enjoy this game, and I think the issues above need to be addressed if the game is to maintain its community and not be cheapened or exploited by people who are used to other games. The spawn camping/protect issue in particular is one I feel can almost ruin an entire match, especially when the teams aren't well matched. I've personally had to ask my team repeatedly at times to get out of the enemy's spawn, it's become an embarrassment as to how bad it can get in some games.

Apologies for the long post, and feel free to comment as you see fit guys :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Spawn Camping: This is the number one issue I have with this game, and one I think needs serious attention.

This has been the same since respawn games have started. If you had truly random spawns there would be some of the same complaints. At the very least there needs to be four spawn points for each m/p map. Random of course.

Grenade Launchers: I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the GL range should have a minimum, as this is both realistic, and prevents people using it as a spam weapon at short range (i.e a few feet away).

It does have a min range, I was testing it the other nite (in the demo). The problem is the min range is wayyyy too short. 40mm nades have a spin armed fuze and the distance to fuze is 30 meters. That would completely stop all short range n00b spam. I'd love to see GRIN extend min range. Right now min range is like 5 meters.

Spawning: I find the process of spawning to be confusing at times. Mainly when I hit the spawn limit and no spawns are left in a mode like Team Deathmatch, there should be an indicator showing how many times I can spawn if there is a spawn limit.

Good ideas.

Edited by ruggbutt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't played GRAW 2 retail, but I've played the MP demo, and these are important points PersianImmortal makes

  • Spawn Camping: This is the number one issue I have with this game, and one I think needs serious attention.

Correct, invuln for 6-8 sec or so should be enabled as default setting, which will reduce spawn rape. Too few server admins realize it can be changed.

At the very least there needs to be four spawn points for each m/p map. Random of course

Multiple spawn zones with a random insertion option (a´ la GR) is critical for creating flexibility and variability in the gameplay. However, it will not prevent spawn camping. Note, If playing with respawns, the randomness only accounts for 1st insertion. The following respawns will occur at the same insertion point as 1st spawn. Otherwise it will just be a mess if players start to respawn anywhere on a map. I'm no big fan of games with respawns but at least respawns should not be totally unpredictable, so you can end up having an opponent in your back you've just cleared.

  • Grenade Launchers: I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the GL range should have a minimum, as this is both realistic, and prevents people using it as a spam weapon at short range (i.e a few feet away).

I woldn't call it is spam as you only have 1 or 2 of them nades, but a longer minimum range would't hurt.

  • Spawning: I find the process of spawning to be confusing at times. Mainly when I hit the spawn limit and no spawns are left in a mode like Team Deathmatch, there should be an indicator showing how many times I can spawn if there is a spawn limit.

Good suggestion, but not on the HUD please. It could show when you are in the kit up screen.

  • Teamkilling: Though I haven't had an issue with this yet, I know from the MP demo that tkers need a prominent message on their HUD, or a voice message clearly indicating that they have killed a friendly.

Good suggestion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On spawn issues/respawns: GRAW 2 is the first game in a while where I've seen this to be a major problem. In most other games where there are 'waves' of respawns, (e.g Battlefield series) the maps are large enough and there is enough combat all over the map that it's rare for almost an entire team to wind up right outside the enemy's spawn, waiting for them to come out while popping them off like flies. In fact many servers ban players who spawn camp anyway. And spawns are often protected anyway (e.g. in BF2142 Titan mode, at least one spawn point is inside an impenetrably shielded Titan).

In GRAW 2 Recon Vs. Assault mode and Team Deathmatch mode in particular it's a major problem, because the maps are often smaller, and once you've eventually advanced on the enemy spawn position there are a lot of locations you can safely hide and knock off the enemy as they respawn or walk out of spawn. This is why a longer spawn protect really is needed, otherwise players have no hope of spotting the spawn campers, aiming and killing them in time. If you play a map like tdm_nowhere you'll soon see it's a spawn-camping bonanza, especially when teams are not evenly matched in terms of skill (which is the norm on public servers).

GRAW 2 Deathmatch already seems to have some kind of random respawn system, and it's actually even worse, because you're wandering around when all of a sudden another person spawns right in front of you - you can't exactly ignore them (they'll just as soon shoot you), so you wind up reluctantly spawn killing them because they only have around 3 seconds of protection (if that) which is barely enough for them to work out where they are, switch weapons and move before they're killed. So yes, longer spawn protection is a must, since most admins do not change the default, and 3 seconds is just not enough.

On GL "spam": I call it spam because there's no real aiming involved. It's the one weapon in GRAW 2 that requires little skill and frustrates other players. I ran into one clan player (who will remain nameless) who every single time we were within a few feet would use his GL against me. Even if you kill him as he launches it, he still gets his kill at the same time, so it rewards players who use this tactic. It really is a cheap and unrealistic tactic, more suited to something like CounterStrike than a Ghost Recon game.

A minimum range of at least 20 meters should make the GL used more appropriately. In real life even if there were no limit a soldier would never use a grenade launcher at a target a few feet away because it's suicide.

Edited by PersianImmortal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A similar thing happen to me today, members of a particular clan all seemed to be armed with GL, after some time you can almost predict who it was when you got naded.

I’m not sure, but at the moment there isn’t an option to restrict kits, etc- no nade servers, pistol only etc etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All very good points

Another one I'd like to see is binoculars, they should be included with all character classes just like old school GR.

More maps for online multiplayer, some of those SP maps will be awesome in MP *cough* embassy *cough*

Ingame mod selection, will there be one?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Binoculars would definitely be nice.

However I was playing some co-op last night online (and it is incredibly hard I have to say), and I noticed that there's a problem with the draw distance. In normal multiplayer, we know that the draw distance usually cuts out at a certain range. So you can't actually see the enemy on the other side of the map, you can only see their muzzle flashes.

This isn't a major problem in normal multiplayer, because if you can't see them, they also can't see you since they have the same draw distance, and as far as I know it can't be changed by the user in any way.

The problem in co-op is that the AI seem to be able to see you well beyond the draw distance. So playing on one co-op map last night (sierra I think it was), the enemy snipers were picking me and my team off at long distance, but when I zoomed on their location with my sniper sights, I could only see the occasional muzzle flash - the enemy themselves were invisible. Of course I shot where I thought they'd be, and sometimes I'd score a kill.

But basically to make co-op less insanely hard than it already is, the AI need to have the same draw distance "vision" that real players do.

Edited by PersianImmortal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

one thing that I think isn't pointed out enough is the left out "squad leader spawning". I think this feature is one of the most importent features which made BF2 such a success. I really like to have this feature back again.

another thing that should be addressed IMO is that you can't lay down when reloading. When I'm shot at, I'll hit the dirt immediately no matter if I have no hand free to rest on, though reloading should be canceled then.

It would be great if GRiN finds some time to look at this :D

Edited by xtraclip
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a thread which Grin needs to pay perticular attention to but will it get lost with all the other good Threads, i think most will agree that all points so far are spot on the first should be pinned for grin to deal with as say a tick list we then should start on another, then once all the boxes are ticked they can release the patch we deserve.

Another wishfull thing would be to pick our own weapon kit and add to the server controls so we can limit the kits as i normally like grenade lauchers but i even think they arm to early

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been referring to the server default, not the maximum. Most servers I've played on appear to have only around 3 seconds of spawn protect (if that). Obviously GRIN can't force server owners to use a particular time, but I think a lot of server owners are either not enabling the option or not changing it from its default.

Spawn camping/raiding appears to be a fact of life in GRAW 2, since once you kill most of the enemy in TDM for example, the logical thing to do is to advance towards their spawn. However it then becomes quite hard for the enemy to retaliate if they're being shot, sniped or naded moments after they spawn each time. 8 seconds of spawn protect should give a player enough time to spawn, get their bearings, switch to another weapon if necessary, and start running for cover or spot any encamped enemy immediately surrounding them and do something.

nowhere and arroyo are particular maps where spawn camping is a common complaint because they're so small and because the enemy can surround and hide around/above the spawn area quite well. Maps like crashsite, lagoon, calavera are relatively easier to break the hold of spawn campers

Having 2 or 3 random spawn sites for each side would be better, but in the absence of a major change like that, all I can suggest is upping the default.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 to 10 secs spawn protect is enough.

What is the current maximum setting then?

IMO, I think this type of spawn protection is best:

The second you FIRE, you lose your spawn protection. All of it, you don't hold onto 50%. You can only move for 3 steps and then your protection is gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

nowhere and arroyo are particular maps where spawn camping is a common complaint because they're so small and because the enemy can surround and hide around/above the spawn area quite well.

Those maps can't be fixed with multiple spawn points as there isn't room for it.

Like said before, they are best played with 10-12 players. And personally I suggest only playing DM on them, and then there is no problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

nowhere and arroyo are particular maps where spawn camping is a common complaint because they're so small and because the enemy can surround and hide around/above the spawn area quite well.

Those maps can't be fixed with multiple spawn points as there isn't room for it.

Like said before, they are best played with 10-12 players. And personally I suggest only playing DM on them, and then there is no problem.

Very small maps like Arroyo, Nowhere, and Fort are extremely bad examples of this. You know it. And I know it. Having these sort of maps on servers with a large max player limit only leads to Spawn camping by one team or another. But would it be unreasonable to stretch out the spawn areas on very large maps like The_Cut, Crashsite, or Timber? Calavera is also a map that has had the spawns in question since the beginning of the beta. The way the map is designed, you can be spawncamped from over 50% of the map for either spawn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) I think that the SERVER GHOSTING SHOULD BE FIXED. You have to hit refresh 2-5 times to get the server that you want to show up.

2)Fix the damn Chat. My keys to start chat is T and Y and these letters show up in chat when I am typing to my team or to all. This was a problem since the demo. I thought it would be fixed for the final game.

3) Grin every modern game that is out right now has voip built in the game. When playing RvsA most of the time people don't know what they are doing. Voip would of helped to organize the team to complete the objectives. The lack of Voip was the biggest disappointment that I have with the game.

4) RvsA is the best mode. Think of some ways to improve it. Maybe adding some more classes.

5) In TDM, I think that you should earn your weapons just like in RvsA mode. So easy for a newb to pick the GLs.

6) How about an official map pack and more weapons in the future.

GRIN I really like the game. Don't give up and stop supporting the game. UBI has been notorious about lack of support since the down fall of the Rainbow Six series. Don't let us GHOST down too.

BuFFaLo-SouLjaH :zorro:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few gameplay fixes (mostly multiplayer) I'd like to suggest personally. (and I'd strongly recommend that at least the first suggestion is implemented)

1: Limit the number of snipers per team. (preferably 3-4) Had one too many instances where a TDM turned into a snipe fest. (and I find one to be one too many) Oh, and make this limit a requirement, not a server-side option.

2: Add some sway to the M99. 'nuff said.

3: Fine tune the A.I. of the player's Ghost Team a bit. (single player) At least make them have common sense, i.e. running to cover if they're being shot. That would be enough for me personally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Binoculars would definitely be nice.

However I was playing some co-op last night online (and it is incredibly hard I have to say), and I noticed that there's a problem with the draw distance. In normal multiplayer, we know that the draw distance usually cuts out at a certain range. So you can't actually see the enemy on the other side of the map, you can only see their muzzle flashes.

This isn't a major problem in normal multiplayer, because if you can't see them, they also can't see you since they have the same draw distance, and as far as I know it can't be changed by the user in any way.

The problem in co-op is that the AI seem to be able to see you well beyond the draw distance. So playing on one co-op map last night (sierra I think it was), the enemy snipers were picking me and my team off at long distance, but when I zoomed on their location with my sniper sights, I could only see the occasional muzzle flash - the enemy themselves were invisible. Of course I shot where I thought they'd be, and sometimes I'd score a kill.

But basically to make co-op less insanely hard than it already is, the AI need to have the same draw distance "vision" that real players do.

Yeah, I agree about the bolded areas. I have preached about this for God knows how long. I don't expect for this to be addressed but that'll determine how long I play GRAW2.

But I posted at another thread that there are ALOT and I do mean alot of servers with noone on them. a two week old game about and the servers are empty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that arroyo and nowhere are not good examples of tdm maps, but unfortunately it seems at least 3 of the 5 servers I regularly play on (for lack of choice) have both these maps set up in their 32 player tdm rotation. As you can imagine, things aren't pretty when two teams of 16 players each are on such a small map, it really does become a spawn camping spamfest, and it can also last quite a while.

I'd like to second Buffalo-souljah's suggestion as well, that the server listing bug be fixed, as I often find that the first time the servers are listed, I don't see particular servers (yes, I use the scroll bar to scroll up and down the entire list). Only after being refreshed do some of the servers appear.

Finally, I'd like to see the scoring system fixed up so that tactics and objectives are visibly rewarded in objective-based game modes, not just kills. For example in Seige there have been several times I've purposely ignored kills to quietly make my way to the zone and capture it. The result is I help my team win, but on the scoreboard my score is quite low due to lack of kills. Now I don't just play for kills, but it would be nice if the person who achieves a particular objective in RvsA or Seige is given visible credit on the screen (e.g. their name is highlighted or shown like the way the winner of deathmatch is named at the end of a round). This will encourage more players to play for the objective in objective-based modes rather than just going for the highest kills.

Aside from the spawn issue, none of these suggestions is critical to the game, they're just my wishlist of things I'd like to see.

Edited by PersianImmortal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...