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SP Demo Feedback and Discussion


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The AI ghosts seem a bit brighter than in GRAW, and the tango AI are a bit smarter about flanking when they attack. Unfortunately I still saw a LOT of the same problems as GRAW had... Tangos spawning when the player gets someplace he just scouted to be clear with the drone... Tangos not reacting unless they think they are threatened -- I saw no sign of any tango plans being triggered by any events/actions taken by the player.... And finally... It was all just as linear as before... Why exactly do I have to hunt down the last tango in the camp before I am allowed to place a demo charge on the piece of artillery I found :(

The graphics and overall performance are great, but I'm really not seeing much opportunity for building missions that have any significant replayability.

Pretty much sums it up for me also. :maybe: Can't say I'm very excited about GRAW2 as I also feel that if the enemy doesn't have random plans to execute it's going to be just as linear as GRAW was and that equals just about zero replayability for me. :( Hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.
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After playing the SP demo for GRAW 1 and reading what so-called features it was going to have, I decided not to waste my money. But after playing both of the GRAW 2 demos, I am ready to spend some cash. Over all, I like the feel of the game and I give my compliments to GRIN for developing what seems to be a solid game.

That being said, I have some gripes/suggestions that I didn't see listed.

1. I don't mind the cheer leading from time to time, but I would like a team member to only confirm that I got the kill if he is ahead of me (this is presuming I don't have the best view of the tango).

2. When in "Recon" mode, a Ghost should only fire if being fired upon (and they usually don't do that). In "Assault" mode, they should fire if they should see a tango. There needs to be an option in Assault mode to give cover fire (where they fire in a general direction). I am tired of my team mates wasting bullets!

3. Show hand animations when detonating the C4. In addition, you should be able to tell a squad mate to detonate the artillery just like you can tell them to use the emplacement gun.

4. I am getting to the point that the next Ghost member that asks me "Sir?" is going to be punished by death from my gun. This is so annoying, like dripping water from a faucet. If they are so bored, they need to go play a video game or something.

5. Improve AI following your "move" orders. Also, I don't need to hear a confirmation every time they get to one. You multiply that by 3 guys and there's way to much chatter. Don't these elite soldiers have any noise discipline?

6. The rebels should fire at the drone from time to time or run to a spot where they can't be seen.. If they hit it enough times, it gets destroyed. I just find it odd that they don't react to it at all.

7. Why is there never an artillery in the left cave?

8. Make the circles when issuing a move order in FPV to be smaller. They are bit too arcadish looking.

9. There needs to be a Lone Wolf mode so you can play with out your AI back up and not get a lower score. I know, I know, it's a team game as it should be, but some times you just want to test your skills as a player in SP and not be worried about a bunch of talkative AI saying "Sir?" every minute.

10. I think the damage model in the rebels need to be changed. It should take 1 head shot, 2-3 body shots to take them down. Why wear a protective vest if it still takes one shot in the chest to take you out. This would put more emphasis on getting the 1-shot kills.

11. There needs to be an option to throw a grenade when you release your button (maybe add that feature to the "zoom" key).

12. Make the Drone controllable from the Camera view just like your team mates. It might be nice to have a command for the droid to be stationary, but point in the same direction you are looking.

13. The little cross-cam window is a nice feature, but one that is poorly implemented. The wire frame view is ok, but not ideal. There needs to be an option that shows exactly what the buddy cam would show, the current wire frame view, or none at all. I know performance is an issue (I have played SWAT 4 with this feature), but that's why we have options.

14. There needs to be 2 modes in which you can play the SP or Coop modes. The first would be the GR mode in which you don't have any red or blue diamonds in FPV, sound to designate you have a target, big box on the top of your screen giving you hints, and floating squares showing you possible locations of the artillery (like it's hard to figure out). This would be a more challenging form of the game. Currently I choose not to see the red diamonds because I don't want to be lazy and shoot at geometric shapes.

The other would be the AW mode in which the game plays as it is in it's current form. This mode could be for people who are into the hi-tech aspect, beginners who need the extra help. or for those who like to command the AI in a RTS mode.

There have been many other suggestion that I would add to this game. I understand that GRIN has real world limitations (i.e. a budget) they have to work with. The least we can ask for is a solid game that runs well (i.e. little to no bugs). The most we will ask for is the greatest of games, that is depending on who you ask of course.

p.s. I find it odd that the games of today are lacking what I would call standard features. It seems like developers don't want to use ideas from other developers. We as players find this odd because there is a yo-yo effect on features in todays game.

Example: In team based games (I will use BF 2), they don't have a buddy list and the functionality of that server browsers should be attached to DOOM. Why can't we scroll through the servers with the wheel mouse, is it that hard to program?

Don't be afraid to take what works, add to your game, and then add a little bit more to make it unique.

Edited by Odedge
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I have one extra bicker. I know it's been posted before but I noticed my teammates aren't switching to their "loud" weapons when I tell them to go assault. Atleast not everytime. It's mostly when I tell them to move in recon mode and cover in assault mode. I might just start giving em silencers on their primary weapons. But sometimes I just wanna take time to appreciate the sound of the weapons when they're loud. Anyways, that's it.

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People worrying about insertion not being FP fear not, watch the GRAW Dev vids and you can see that GRiN have included it on certain levels, just not on the Demo.

As for lone wolf missions, that is also included if you wish to not play with AI team.

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Why on Earth would the 7950 GX2 video cards not be support? :wall:

We're up the creek aren't we McGhost...... :P I thought 7 series were supported? Ahhhh, here we go....right from the site:

Supported Video Cards at Time of Release:

- ATI® Radeon® 9559, 9600, 9800/X800-X1950

- NVIDIA® GeForce™ 6200-8800

Cheers!

Fresh

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Why on Earth would the 7950 GX2 video cards not be support? :wall:

We're up the creek aren't we McGhost...... :P I thought 7 series were supported? Ahhhh, here we go....right from the site:

Supported Video Cards at Time of Release:

- ATI® Radeon® 9559, 9600, 9800/X800-X1950

- NVIDIA® GeForce™ 6200-8800

Cheers!

Fresh

I hope you guys are just kidding around.. right!

I am sure you all know that a '-' or better know as a dash incidactes that all cards from 6200 to 8800 are supported.. this means all the cards inbetween as well.

I believe 7950 falls in between the numbers 6200 and 8800?

If not then well, I guess it has now been explained.

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Hey Irish,

I thought I eased everyones worry, including myself, about the supported cards. Your right 6200 through 8800 cards ARE supported. But he laptop versions of those card are not.

I love my 7950 card great FPS no doubt about it...... :D

Cheers!

Fresh

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One thing I noticed, I dunno if any developer read it in the "last minute suggestions"-thread. But that was where I posted about not being able to hear "yourself" while walking. Your gear and equipment. Maybe it was me, but whatever, thanks for implementing those sounds in the game! I really do enjoy those sounds!

Edited by rookie
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Goodaye,

Positives

All the things mentioned to date - superb interface, recon mode, graphics, optimisation, team mates, planning, atmosphere etc. Well done.

Negatives

1.The Tango AI. I found it virtually identical to GRAW1 - very passive and reactive. Mostly tangos standing around waiting for something to happen. The actual individual tango tactical AI is quite good, stuff like peeking around a corner, ducking back into cover and then crouching before they peek again is excellent. It's the big picture AI that's lacking.

2.Replayability. Limited. I tried the demo once on hard and failed first up. I started again and, having a better idea of how the interface worked, and more importantly the scripted events (such as approaching the bridge ), and had little trouble cruising through in a surpisingly short time. I then did it on hard a second time with a different approach route and found it even easier. Becoming a little frustrated I cranked it up to the highest difficulty level and dropped my team size in half and, while it definetly took a lot longer, it didn't show me anything different.

Eg. There appeared to be minimal, if any, randomisation of tango's each time I played and cranking up the difficulty level just put a few extra into the mix. Once you learned where they where it was all downhill. The events and reactions of the tangoes appeared to be identical on each playthrough even though I went out of my way to vary my approaches and tactics. Very much a case of the same guy in the place doing the same thing every time.

There seemed to be a two man patrol walking a very short, back and forth route and another two or three dozen tangoes just standing around, mind in nuetral, finger up bum. Staring fixedly at a particular spot on the wall. I'm yet to see one actually swivel his head to look around. It's as if they have their necks glued down and their brains deactivated until somebody takes a shot at them.

All of which are comments I could make about GRAW1. However, unlike GRAW1, GRAW2's improved interface, recon mode, etc have actually made playing the game a more streamlined experience with the end result being a dumbed down difficulty. I just didn't get that feeling of 'Damn, this is hard!' that I got with the GRAW1 demo or [GR].

A major additional failing of GRAW1 was the difficulty involved for modders in being able to create SP missions. This pretty much ensured that once you had played through the campaign you had nowhere else to go as there was little incentive to replay the same scripted stuff again. I'm guessing but I'd say the majority of players would be SP. By putting too many hurdles in front of the modders I think GRIN did themselves a major disservice as they deep, rich vein of SP content that flowed from [GR] and it's accessible modding tools just wasn't there for GRAW1. Hopefully GRAW2 won't be the same story.

I'm keen to support GRIN as I think they are heading in the right direction and my observations above, based on limited experience, may not be replicated by others. I think GRIN has done an awful lot right and deserves full credit for this. While I'm pretty down on the AI and the dumbed down difficulty I present my comments in the vein of constructive criticism.

Cheers,

Tas_Cam

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This demo is fantastic! I've been trying to approach the camp as stealthily as possible and I discovered today you can actually get all the way behind it, into the mountain area, without firing a shot and without being seen. What's more, by keeping the team stealthy, you can get EVERYONE there without the AI even noticing - even on hardcore! From the rear, you can launch a surprise attack and because of the positioning of the sandbags, the AI is easy pickings. You would not BELIEVE how tense it is to be sneaking around inside the camp WITH the team, getting into position, getting ready to open up. The recon dynamic turns it into a whole new game - it's got an additional layer of strategy now.

Perhaps my favourite 'feature' as a part of the recon dynamic is the fact that you can get your men to take a shot in recon mode, and take out only one enemy. I had a great moment where I moved Hume up on to the ridge to snipe, and he spotted an enemy walking along the bridge. Before the rest of the squad moved up, I had Hume take out the guy with one shot from his silenced sniper rifle - boom, no witnesses. As the rest of the squad adopted positions inside the base, I had Ramirez take out a dangerously positioned enemy with his silenced sidearm while the rest of the squad moved into position. Hume took out the guy in the watchtower from a distance, and the rest of the squad moved into position mere feet away from the enemy. The order was given to go loud and a few seconds later, the entire base was decimated with no casualties and very little return fire.

This demo just drips atmosphere and the feedback from your squad, the improved command interface, the softer graphics, the phenomenal sound and the expertly judged difficulty level just about make this an essential recommendation.

Well done GRIN, I wasn't going to do so originally but I preordered the game earlier this week and I have since found out it has been posted. I can't wait!

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I have also been "fiddling" around with the demo mission, trying every possible approach.... not just different routes, but everything from full on assault to full on stealth. I love it!

I guess it does depend on what you expect from a tactical game, but I sort of expect a 4 man team of "ghosts" to try and do everything possible to avoid unneccesary contact. I also expect to be able to manoever my team around to my heart's content. GRAW2 allows me to do both (at least the demo does). I'm also one of those weird people who enjoys the process more than the outcome, so the freedom to try different things means more to me than the overall difficulty of the mission, or how linear things are. Having said that, random enemy placement and/or patrol routes would be awesome.

One thing I've noticed is that the enemy AI reacts VERY differently each time I've played it. I've been flanked, I've watched them come running from all over the map on the tac map, I've been hunted down amongst the buildings... and then I've seen them be completely passive, or just go into hiding. Not sure how the AI responses work out to be honest, but I've enjoyed the variety a lot.

This game gets my approval! I can see myself having many hours of serious fun, even if there are improvements which could be made. Good job Grin!!

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I like it BUT, I wish when you got hit it would knock you down and when injured you limp or some other effect depending on the injury. I did find that when getting shot it at least throws your aim off which is good. I too can't stand all the noise your AI make on the radio. It is not something I would expect out of professionals. I think I understand why you did it, so that we would not forget that we have them available to use.

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Just a few points :P

1) Sometimes when I've been sneaking into position in recon mode, the enemy will come running as soon as I switch to assault, as if they can see me through objects or something. Even if I no shots were fired at them.

2) If I'm looking past an object such as the flammable liquid containers and I have my sniper scope bang on a guys head, my shot hits the container/this air instead.

3) Something similar to the point I made in 2) happened while playing on hardcore. Some guys came down ropes from a chopper across the bridge and killed me using their G36s or whatever they had. Bearing in mind they are in the choppers downdraught. They killed me from in the middle of that swirling dust just like that and I couldn't hit the guy who killed me when I'm prone and using the MSG or whatever the sniper rifle is (not the M14, the other one)

4) As in GRAW1, the only way to hear proper sounds is for me to disable EAX. I'm not too bothered by this.

5) The enemy do behave in different ways, but only after they've been shot at. Otherwise its the same as GRAW1

6) In "normal" mode, it's sometimes possible to stand looking at an enemy without him shooting back at you. I peeped over the first ledge where the truck is in the road and there was a guy looking straight at me. Nothing happened until I threw a frag into the road. Even when I shot at the other guys, that guy just stayed there looking through a gap in the wall. Again, this might be linked to point 2) whereby it's possible to see past an object, but there's some kind of invisible barrier.

I have a feeling that hardcore mode just means "supereyes" again. I've only got the demo, so I can't tell if the enemy can see in the dark without NV, but I betting that they'll be able to.

I'd be nice if the people who came to support the other enemies actually looked around instead of just standing there staring into space while they're picked off by my SD stealth :ph34r: But saying that.... One time, guys started attacking my position and I got battered because one of my team started doing the "i'm taking fire" routine. I'd like to see 1-2 guys pinning me down with fire while the others advance. Maybe thats asking too much in terms of processing power or whatever, I don't know.

7) I just thought of one more. If I give my sniper an attack command for a guy in the distance that he has LOS on, I expect him to snipe him like in GRAW one (the team sniper was deadly in this respect, I loved it). This guy went running out of cover and compromised the operation :nono:

I guess you have to be very careful with the ROE now. Otherwise you might find you tell them to attack and they run into the road with only silenced pistols out :wall:

Edited by Strapt
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I like it BUT, I wish when you got hit it would knock you down and when injured you limp or some other effect depending on the injury. I did find that when getting shot it at least throws your aim off which is good. I too can't stand all the noise your AI make on the radio. It is not something I would expect out of professionals. I think I understand why you did it, so that we would not forget that we have them available to use.

Another command to shut them up would be helpful.

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