Is GRAW2 expected to have it's own Anti-Cheat technology?

[McGhost]

IMO I think all games should have anti-cheat build right into the MP code.

[Panic]

it sounds nice but anti cheats are a target, and ineffective.

some hackers actually said they would not make any trainers for GRAW unless it had a proper anti-cheat. the bigger the challenge, the more likely it will be beaten hehe.

if all data was server sided, then i think things would be better.

replays and admin players would be a lot more effective

Edited May 27, 2007 by Panic

[Colin]

Its been said an upgraded version of Graw I.

Seemed to work ok.

Server checks your data if its the same you are ok, if not your kicked.

I think the last time round it did suffer from bandwidth issues but I expect its sorted now.

[Bota:16]

it sounds nice but anti cheats are a target, and ineffective.

some hackers actually said they would not make any trainers for GRAW unless it had a proper anti-cheat. the bigger the challenge, the more likely it will be beaten hehe.

if all data was server sided, then i think things would be better.

replays and admin players would be a lot more effective

Isn't that like saying a thief wouldn't rob a bank if they didn't put their money in a vault? Sure there are "hackers" out there who enjoy a good challenge as do we by playing the game, but 99% of them do it so they can tell themselves how 1337 they are because thye have never been able to win at anything else in their lives. As far as I know the anti-cheat will be similar to the one in GRAw1, though probably tweaked for the better.

[Sleepdoc-iBeta]

Only 2 things effect the quantity and Quality of cheats.

1. The popularity of the online game (more popular = more cheats)

2. Anti-cheat software, including replay capability and special admin capabilities etc. (the more effective, the less cheating)

[Panic]

Isn't that like saying a thief wouldn't rob a bank if they didn't put their money in a vault?

nope, that really is completely different.

I'll release BallistiX for GR3 only when Grin will use a decent anticheat method (or if they use PunkBuster, just to **** the Tony Ray's useless spyware* again).

So let's wait for this anticheat solution to have an interesting challenge, I think I gonna love messing with this game, and even more when it will be "protected".

[Pulaski]

Since GRAW 1 had no anti-cheat system I would be surprised to see one in GRAW 2.

[Sleepdoc-iBeta]

Since GRAW 1 had no anti-cheat system I would be surprised to see one in GRAW 2.

GRAW1 did have a anti cheat system. It was a rudimentary one, but it had one. I believe it compared your files ot the servers files and any differences were cuase for dismissal.

[FI_FlimFlam]

One of the biggest problems with virtually every "in-house" (created by the game devs) AC implementation is that once it's circumvented, there is little to nothing that can then be done to stop the cheating. You then have to rely on the devs to update the AC which has to be approved by the publisher (if ever) which can take months leaving hackers to have free reign in servers for that time. Generally most of these games have no other admin managed checks or capabilities that can at the very least reduce the amount of cheaters exploiting their servers which leaves everyone SOL.

I'm sorry, (here we go again down the AC argument road again...) any AC that has no admin control or regular updates is all but worthless after a couple of months. And lets not get into replays as definitive proof again we all know where that one is going to go...

[Bota:16]

Isn't that like saying a thief wouldn't rob a bank if they didn't put their money in a vault?

nope, that really is completely different.

I'll release BallistiX for GR3 only when Grin will use a decent anticheat method (or if they use PunkBuster, just to **** the Tony Ray's useless spyware* again).

So let's wait for this anticheat solution to have an interesting challenge, I think I gonna love messing with this game, and even more when it will be "protected".

So the game world would be hacker free and better off without having anticheats? I mean there was a reason why Evenbalance created PB and it wasn't to give hackers a challenge.

[COL. KNIGHT]

Guys I kinda of like PunkBuster. Before I get flamed let me say why. It allows you to put in the kinda of checks you want it to look for. When I played Americas Army I was a part of a comunity called aasa and they had some real good PB programers that could right code out and pb would use that to look for hacks and stuff. something like that would be great. Also I have noticed with more and more games comming out with stats and stuff the more cheating happens in those games. just my 2 cents worth

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Just as a note... somewhere in the UBI uk site i saw auto updating. Maybe that wasn't for maps and was ment for patches and anticheat (without the need for publisher approval)

[BOTA:X]

Just as a note... somewhere in the UBI uk site i saw auto updating. Maybe that wasn't for maps and was ment for patches and anticheat (without the need for publisher approval)

Nice that it autopatches...now if they just release those more regulary

Edited May 28, 2007 by BOTA:X

[Panic]

So the game world would be hacker free and better off without having anticheats? I mean there was a reason why Evenbalance created PB and it wasn't to give hackers a challenge.

again your taking it too far, are you really gonna argue this one with every point?

any monkey can make a trainer, and a lot of poor trainers are created like infinate ammo, these will always be made by dumb ass script kiddies.

other trainers are made by guys who have to cheat to get kills.

other hackers are in it for the money.

other hackers are in it for the challenge / to show how bad coding is / to show how ineffective anti cheat is / to reveal spyware etc etc and often do not release their code. hackers deliberately target Punkbuster and other anti cheat - Fact, don't be ignorant about it.

[cajun47]

so online cheating is unstoppable? even with active admins on their servers? i suspect wall hackers are the hardest to detect. this is pretty discouraging. im at a cross road. i must upgrade my pc or buy a 360. i think the 360 is the better platform cause of fewer cheaters. i mean micro flat out banned modded 360s! so those cheaters will have to buy another $400 360 and find a new way. then micro may ban them again costing them another $400. lol thats great imo.

chance of a fair game is much higher on the 360? and its cheat or be cheated on pc. cheaters/hackers are the king of pc world i guess. this is how it is and always will be in pc gaming?

yes i know pc gaming is better. i would rather graw 2 on pc than 360 for so many reasons but these low life cheaters make me sick.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

so online cheating is unstoppable? even with active admins on their servers? i suspect wall hackers are the hardest to detect. this is pretty discouraging. im at a cross road. i must upgrade my pc or buy a 360. i think the 360 is the better platform cause of fewer cheaters. i mean micro flat out banned modded 360s! so those cheaters will have to buy another $400 360 and find a new way. then micro may ban them again costing them another $400. lol thats great imo.

chance of a fair game is much higher on the 360? and its cheat or be cheated on pc. cheaters/hackers are the king of pc world i guess. this is how it is and always will be in pc gaming?

yes i know pc gaming is better. i would rather graw 2 on pc than 360 for so many reasons but these low life cheaters make me sick.

If you go 360, you will run into the hardware modders with cheat ridden xbox's... though MS just recently started banning found xboxes that were modded. Tomatoe, tomato

[cajun47]

i know. and they will find a way around micro's modded 360 ban im sure. but how many will keep buying hardware to replace their banned ones? how many 360 users are hardcore hackers vs. the average joe going on live after work and couldn't care less about learning how to cheat?

im trying to figure out if there are way more cheaters on pc games vs. 360. im not sure but so far it seems like im much less likely to run into cheaters on live vs. pc games. from what i read on several pc gaming fourms, there is very little that can be done to stop cheating in pc games. even live admins can't stop them very often.

[Bota:16]

There are many things that can be used to stop/prevent cheaters. An anti-cheat is just one of them. Everybody knows (should anyways) that anti-cheats are not perfect, but the more tools an admin/community have at their disposal the better. There is no surefire way to stop/prevent cheaters but more than one way to combat cheating is and will always be a good thing.

[IrishStout]

so online cheating is unstoppable? even with active admins on their servers? i suspect wall hackers are the hardest to detect. this is pretty discouraging. im at a cross road. i must upgrade my pc or buy a 360. i think the 360 is the better platform cause of fewer cheaters. i mean micro flat out banned modded 360s! so those cheaters will have to buy another $400 360 and find a new way. then micro may ban them again costing them another $400. lol thats great imo.

chance of a fair game is much higher on the 360? and its cheat or be cheated on pc. cheaters/hackers are the king of pc world i guess. this is how it is and always will be in pc gaming?

yes i know pc gaming is better. i would rather graw 2 on pc than 360 for so many reasons but these low life cheaters make me sick.

Hackers have hacked into 128-bit incription... if it's electronics then it can be hacked, changed or coded.

It all depends on how much time and effort the hackers are willing to put in to it.

The best thing to do, is figure out where your friends and the people you hope you can trust play.

If it happens to be 360, then so be it.. if it's the PC then well there's your answer.

After being in the community for such a long time, I have come to assosiate myself with soem good people. People who I believe would not knowingly allow a hacker to join their clan.

Those are the people I play with.. luckly I have been lucky because these people enjoy the game as much as I do so I can always find a few of them online.

Anyway, if you don't have the PC community to play with.. look up the likes of SCE once the game comes out. We will be more then happy to play with you.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

In the 360 though there is rank. This is a bonus for hackers.

Anything that lets them show it off will draw more attention.

Irish is right... but as most clans when we aren't matching... we are playing public servers. I've been banned for "hacking" a few times and even called it more for having a good game and nothing could be further more from the truth. A decent anticheat such as Grins that file compares and a kick and ban is all we really need (oh and auto kick for tkers). Something that would aide us though would be a Deathcam that actually shows from the players eyes exactly what is going on including reload and scope + night vision, and an observe mode so we can see what the suspicious peeps are up too and record as needed even if using a 3rd party game cam or fraps.

[Pulaski]

Since GRAW 1 had no anti-cheat system I would be surprised to see one in GRAW 2.

GRAW1 did have a anti cheat system. It was a rudimentary one, but it had one. I believe it compared your files ot the servers files and any differences were cuase for dismissal.

GRAW 1 had a file checker aka pure server setting, thats a long way from being a anti-cheat.

[FI_FlimFlam]

While the file checker stops the "easy" cheats, it does nothing with settings that are out of range in stock files that could enable cheating. The Unreal engine for RvS had tons of these and changing the right ones could give you retlock and no recoil and you would pass a simple file checker AC. Plus that kind of AC does nothing for 3rd party cheats. Don't get me wrong it's almost better than nothing but for matching or adversarial game types it's not even close to being a viable anti-cheat to prevent a half-serious cheater.

Observer modes and replays are another tool but also far from proof positive. They are more like an admins "best guess" rather than definitive proof. Also the problem with observer mode is that you cannot see what is on the other players view. Sure you can see something suspicious, but how often when you are playing a game with observer does it go wacky? Or does it show funky things, or lag a bit. It only shows what your game client can render with what the server THINKS the other player is seeing. Often times depending on the engine you might not get things like leaning, or accurate ret closure for example. Battle recorder from BF2 is an example of "replays" that often times don't work while a screenshot from PB shows explicit proof like wall-hack.

The more tools the better. Admin configurable checks even more so. Screen Shots of the players actual rendering screen add more reliablilty. An AC with only one basic function will not last long if the game begins to garner any kind of popularity.

EDIT: Just wanted to direct everyone to the GRAW Anti-cheat forum: http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php?showforum=152

Most of these arguments have been batted around quite a bit and this thread is re-hashing most of what was said in there. That is if anyone wants to get up to speed on what has been said before.

Edited June 1, 2007 by FI_FlimFlam

[ROCO*AFZ*]

While the file checker stops the "easy" cheats, it does nothing with settings that are out of range in stock files that could enable cheating. The Unreal engine for RvS had tons of these and changing the right ones could give you retlock and no recoil and you would pass a simple file checker AC. Plus that kind of AC does nothing for 3rd party cheats. Don't get me wrong it's almost better than nothing but for matching or adversarial game types it's not even close to being a viable anti-cheat to prevent a half-serious cheater.

Observer modes and replays are another tool but also far from proof positive. They are more like an admins "best guess" rather than definitive proof. Also the problem with observer mode is that you cannot see what is on the other players view. Sure you can see something suspicious, but how often when you are playing a game with observer does it go wacky? Or does it show funky things, or lag a bit. It only shows what your game client can render with what the server THINKS the other player is seeing. Often times depending on the engine you might not get things like leaning, or accurate ret closure for example. Battle recorder from BF2 is an example of "replays" that often times don't work while a screenshot from PB shows explicit proof like wall-hack.

The more tools the better. Admin configurable checks even more so. Screen Shots of the players actual rendering screen add more reliablilty. An AC with only one basic function will not last long if the game begins to garner any kind of popularity.

EDIT: Just wanted to direct everyone to the GRAW Anti-cheat forum: http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php?showforum=152

Most of these arguments have been batted around quite a bit and this thread is re-hashing most of what was said in there. That is if anyone wants to get up to speed on what has been said before.

Note RVS had punkbuster. So i gues that's out of the "good" anti cheat.

Here is though what i fear. The more powerful and anticheat is ... the more bloat it has and the more bandwidth or processing power it requires. With kick and ban functions it's up to the admin. Give us an observer mode where we see what the player sees and let us watch the guy and ban him ourselves is all we really need over a file checker.

Anticheats have been wrong also. Good admins will know the quirks. If you get banned with no proof move on to the next server.