Sleepdoc-iBeta Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 As we all have come to learn, some of the most disheartening moments in GRAW1 was when the AI had unfair, unrealistic advantages that simply made a situation untenable. The 2 most famous unfair advantages held by enemy AI were .... #1. Their ability to see through the heavily leaved sections of trees and shoot accurately at you while you could not see through trees at all #2. The uncanny ability for mexican soldiers to see in pitch darkness better than you could see when you had night vision goggles. Did you guys try to give the ghosts back their advantage with night vision and at least equalize the "see through trees" thing? Sleepdoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 All of the published info so far concerning enemy AI states that they are smarter. Perhaps you should prepare to duck more in GRAW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinker Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Those are issues with all games, playing against the AI. GR1 is the same. Tinker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FI_FlimFlam Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 I agree with Sleepdoc on this one. I believe I may have also mentioned this in an email with GRIN a while ago. Hands down this is the single most pressing issue preventing decent outdoor wooded maps and environs from GRAW. As was evidenced with the few custom maps that actually attempted to create this type of environments, it was impossible to do because of the AI's ability to "sense" you through dense foliage or at night without them having night vision. Additionally, when it was combined with the limited draw distance, it made alot of maps unbelievably frustrating due to the fact that snipers would be able to kill you and you would not be able to see them at all to return fire. I certainly hope that grin has taken steps to remedy the AI "esp" or at the very least tone it down dramatically in GRAW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinker Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 I just cannot see it. But the AI can... Feel free to mention any game that could do this? More than interested myself now, TBH. Tinker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Well, I'm no programmer, but wouldn't the AI's "perception" be altered if the folliage was rendered as a solid object? I'm very optimistic about the as-of-yet unforseen benefits of the new foliage in GRAW 2. I'm not saying that this will be one of those benefits, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinker Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 ' date='May 25 2007, 12:32 AM' post='466759'] Well, I'm no programmer, but wouldn't the AI's "perception" be altered if the foliage was rendered as a solid object? I'm very optimistic about the as-of-yet unforeseen benefits of the new foliage in GRAW 2. I'm not saying that this will be one of those benefits, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be so. Can they shoot threw solid objects? That would be a cool additive. 2D world takes over i think. But if they have something up there sleeve...Cool! Tinker *SLAPS MYSELF* You want to sit in a bush, have an AI walk 5M passed you like GR1? I got it. Yeah, that is cool. Sry, for butting in. Tinker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Well, I didn't mean "solid" like a masonry wall. I meant "solid" in terms of visual/line of sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinker Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 ' date='May 25 2007, 01:02 AM' post='466763'] Well, I didn't mean "solid" like a masonry wall. I meant "solid" in terms of visual/line of sight. cc Tinker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 You want to sit in a bush, have an AI walk 5M passed you like GR1?By the way, that is/would be cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kung-Fu Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 (edited) If they fixed that, I think it would be a first in video games. Even games where stealth is a key element, the AI pretty much just relies on heuristics to "fake" limited omniscience until it finally takes the gloves off and turns on God mode. For example, in Splinter Cell, you can be sneaking around a pitch black room and nobody hears or sees you. Then you knock over a can or whatever and the baddies instantly have you zeroed and are dead-on-balls accurate in the dark with no night vision. In GRAW it was the same way. In firefights, once you cross the scene trigger, EVERYBODY knows exactly where you are all at the same time. The enemy soldiers don't figure out where you are one-by-one or via communication. I guess snipers too don't really have a "fake it" heuristic, and just skip straight to the God mode. BUT, it'd be cool if the snipers did have a few more heuristics built in this time around. They definately made RPGhard's maps frustrating. Edited May 25, 2007 by Kung-Fu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepdoc-iBeta Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share Posted May 25, 2007 (edited) ' date='May 25 2007, 12:40 AM' post='466772'] You want to sit in a bush, have an AI walk 5M passed you like GR1?By the way, that is/would be cool Yes. This would be nice. And exactly as Cangaroo said, making trees look like opaque objects to the AI would be a simplistic solution, but a better one than we currently have. And although I have not coded in many years, I can't believe that creating an AI that reacts more slowly or spends some time looking for you when you kick a can in the dark rather than just magically knows where you are is that hard. It just takes design upfront, and a commitment of the resources to work it out. But like all titles, money and time and resources are in limited supply. so you do what you can. But certainly, improving these issues from their status in GRAW1 is not out of the grasp of a proven talent like GRiN. Edited May 25, 2007 by Sleepdoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailbomb72 Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 ' date='May 25 2007, 08:40 AM' post='466772'] You want to sit in a bush, have an AI walk 5M passed you like GR1?By the way, that is/would be cool But then you'd have to work out a key or combination of keys that you have to mash to stop your character coughing, sneezing, burping, breathing too loud or droping something and giving away your position. Seriously, getting that up close and personal without detection would be great. If I recall correctly, if you were hidden in [GR] and an ememy AI got to within 5 metres of your position they would detect you? I didn't actually mesure that - I think I read it somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai-San Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 ' date='May 25 2007, 08:40 AM' post='466772'] You want to sit in a bush, have an AI walk 5M passed you like GR1?By the way, that is/would be cool If I recall correctly, if you were hidden in [GR] and an ememy AI got to within 5 metres of your position they would detect you? I didn't actually mesure that - I think I read it somewhere Nope, you could literally be tripped over if you were in a bush. Made for some seriously hairy tournament moments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwgfghost Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 The only games that had foliage and whatnot help your stealth were the SOCOM games but that was for PS2. I remember playing Ghost Recon after SOCOM on PS2 and was like "Wait they can see me through bushes!" I really don't see it as a big deal though. Most games have been like this and I don't expect em to change anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutlink Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I wish they would. It really pulls you out of the immersion to be spotted behind a bush in the dark while standing still from over 50m away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 All I want to have is the AI not turning around shooting just because you see their back and start aiming for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toniezz Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 (edited) Well, GR1 is a bit odd in it's stealth capabillities. In GR1 it was indeed THE approach to get close up to a target by leaping from , scrub to shrub. My motto in GR1 isn't for nothing "Hugg a shrub, guys and girls". In GR1 if you are in a shrub enemy AI could not sence you unless you moved or made noice. Though smoke isn't effected by enemy AI, because it's not in the code. They can just see through it and you as a player can't. My point is. For a next gen game it would be very dissapointing if the AI is still possible to sense you while you are hidden inside or behind a shrub. Also what is the use of smoke grenades if AI can just see through it and you don't. I wan't to be able to cross a street under concealment of a smoke grenade (as in COD2). Same goes for me to be able and sneak up to a target by frog leaping from shrub to shrub. Also our tactical advantages (The Ghosts) of high tech weaponary, such as night vision, need to be indeed advantages. Not just gimmicks. If AI can see through objects, such as smoke and foilage, and we as a player can't I would be very dissapointed in GRAW2 and don't think it holds a long multiplayer (COOP) life (for me). Just my 2 cents. [edit] Also if scrubs and smoke (opaque events) can't be made 'unseethrough' in my opinion one could fake it by some scripting like: "If a player of player platoon is within a distance of 0 meters of 'zone shrub' or 'zone smoke' hide player from (AI) game world." That doesn't sound to hard for hardcore developers as GRIN [/edit] Edited May 25, 2007 by Toniezz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Well, since you mention smoke, I will restate one of my previous posts and say that I wouldn't be surprised if foliage & smoke are more effective concealment/cover from enemy AI in GRAW 2. There can be a downside as well, though: In R6V, the smoke is 100% effective in concealing your location from enemy AI, but it also makes them stupid. I threw some smoke, turned on my thermals, stepped into the smoke, and proceeded to fire upon several enemy positions, killing them all, without them taking cover or firing back. This was on "Realistic" difficulty setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toniezz Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Ouch, that isn't what I would suspect from enemy AI if they see a smoke grenade. I would guess that as an AI sees smoke he would find cover and keep a good eye on that spot (so also nice for diversions) or investigate it. A bit stupid glitch in R6V then I would say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Ouch, that isn't what I would suspect from enemy AI if they see a smoke grenade. I would guess that as an AI sees smoke he would find cover and keep a good eye on that spot (so also nice for diversions) or investigate it. A bit stupid glitch in R6V then I would say Exactly my point on the potential drawbacks. Escpecially since I was in the smoke, firing. You would think they would at least use supressing fire or even fire blind into the smoke. I know I would if I saw a bunch of tracers flying out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph_Q Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Those are issues with all games, playing against the AI. GR1 is the same. Tinker You are wrong my Friend, there are games without these issues : - Far cry - Splinter cell(s) - Chronicles of Riddick - Call of Juarez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Thats odd... I've been shot a number of times by the AI in r6V through smoke after I open fire on them through the smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirap Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I just cannot see it. But the AI can... Feel free to mention any game that could do this? More than interested myself now, TBH. Tinker in Operation Flashpoint and Armed Assault the NPC couldn't see at night without NVG's and you could hide in a bush a few feet away without beeing shot in the face Unless it's a Engine limitation it shouldn't be impossible to fix. If it's a Engine limitation, the engine needs to be revamped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 (edited) Thats odd... I've been shot a number of times by the AI in r6V through smoke after I open fire on them through the smoke.I can tell you I did it last night. It was in the Calypso, in the small airlock between the two vault doors. I threw smoke in the airlock, killed the tango in the room, entered the room wherein tangos enter from the far door (must be an area trigger), went back into the smoke, and finished them off. Two were croutched, one was standing, but no one fired back. Maybe I'm more intimidating Edited May 25, 2007 by Cangaroo[TNT] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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