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' date='May 10 2007, 05:54 AM' post='464702']

BTW, have you noticed the forums have an issue with posts that quote you?
Yes. I believe it is the "[]" in my name. Do you want me to change it?

rant

Dude! These forums are full of gamers, not Adam Smith experts, lighten up a bit. Adam Smith was born a few miles form where I sit, but his writing is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down my book list.

Please don't refer to people "mindless", it's only going to get people's back up, thanks.

I know, I know, and I apologize. Technically, I asked if people were mindless. But, I digress and I will stop. Thanks!

I guess my dual MBA in finance and economics and my research time at Thunderbird (the international school of business here in Arizona, in case you couldn't figure that out) is rather meaningless to someone like you, who believes that your opinion is mightier than all else.

I think I just found a new entry for my "Screw off" filter. Welcome to it.

-jk

Callsign 3Point

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Thats why I'm Pondlife (read a book? pfftt..) Never heard of Adam whassit anyway so I cant comment if he's more intelligent than me!

Guess whats really missing this time round is the chats with GRiN themselves and what makes it worse is there's even more of them working on this sequel.

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Ok, back on topic, sort of...

Ubisoft has their ways of doing things. Their overall PR strategy seem (I have no inside info whatsoever) to be aimed at adressing a mass market, and as such they seem to be either unable or unwilling to discuss the finer details of a specific game (on a specific platform) with the community.

The exception is of course that GRiN is able to communicate us via these forums. Personally, I've never been fond of a developer having to communicate via a private fan-site (though admittedly in this case it works quite well), and consider it an indication of a flawed customer relations doctrine.

Certain information must be kept secret until release, for obvious reasons, but personally I belive this trend has taken on ridiculous proportions in the industry as a whole, not just with Ubisoft. On the other hand, I don't really see how anyone can claim any "rights" to information about a game beforehand. It can be a powerful PR tool if used properly, but if the industry chooses to ignore it, then that's really their problem.

When GRAW2(PC) is released, I'll check it out if given the chance (demo or trying out someone else's game), but I won't sink any money into it untill I'm satisfied it's a a good game, and one that suits my tastes. Any information provided between now and then won't change anything.

Respectfully

krise madsen

PS: Ok, so I can't quite keep quiet, going off topic, and not aimed at anyone in particular: The notion that any game maker deliberately tanks a PC game in order to promote console gaming, or any other setup along those lines, is completely ridiculous, and if giving the subject a bit of thought I'm sure everyone can see that. Every game released on every platform is intended to make money, though far from all releases do that. That even renowned game developers and publishers regularly release unplayable trash doesn't change that fact. Again, not aimed at anyone in particular (or even at this thread), so nobody take this personal please :)

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The notion that any game maker deliberately tanks a PC game in order to promote console gaming, or any other setup along those lines, is completely ridiculous, and if giving the subject a bit of thought I'm sure everyone can see that.

I don't think anyone actually believes that a publisher would intentionally "tank" a PC game. They're saying that publishers dedicate far more resorces to promoting console games compared to PC games. The existence of this thread is evidence to that point.

I'm a GR fanboy, and I know it. I will buy GRAW 2 PC when it's released. I just wish there was some promotional media to get more people excited about it before its release.

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The notion that any game maker deliberately tanks a PC game in order to promote console gaming, or any other setup along those lines, is completely ridiculous, and if giving the subject a bit of thought I'm sure everyone can see that.

I don't think anyone actually believes that a publisher would intentionally "tank" a PC game. They're saying that publishers dedicate far more resorces to promoting console games compared to PC games. The existence of this thread is evidence to that point.

I'm a GR fanboy, and I know it. I will buy GRAW 2 PC when it's released. I just wish there was some promotional media to get more people excited about it before its release.

Exactly bang on ARDelta. :thumbsup:

I as well am a GR fanboy and have been since it was released but I don't recall ever saying anything about a publisher tanking a game for a console version when I started this thread.

Just that in todays market consoles take presidance over PC's.

And the continual lack of info about a hugely followed franchise such as GR is just plain bad PR and quite annoying.

But then again we must remeber what happend with GR2. It was to be released for console and PC. In the end the PC version got tanked.

Edited by Creatch
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Well, if it's me, I would say like this: what they had put in to us pc players, what we will pay it back.

Since they r so few caring and working in PC game, it will nver happen that we pay more for it. That's all. That's the end.

Ya, games are not high price now, but why I must buy it? I will buy it only when I like it.

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Now, I did say "or some setup along those lines" ;)

So, what we're all saying is that the games industry in general (and some companies in particular) have decided to focus their efforts and resources towards console games, at the expense of previous emphasis on PC games?

But isn't this simply a business decision? Why can this generate so much hostility among gamers towards the industry? I mean, I can fully understand gamers (i.e. customers) getting angry when lured into spending money on an unfinished game and things of that nature. But to be angry about a business strategy?

Now, I'm an old-school GR fan myself and I play almost exclusively on PC. I quite frankly wouldn't bat an eye if all console games were taken of the market tomorrow. But on the other hand I can't really fault the games industry for making a business decision (i.e. focusing on consoles), be it right or wrong.

And please note that I'm not singling out individuals, this thread or even this forum. I'm just curious, and I honestly would like to know if anyone has an explanation? :)

Respectfully

krise madsen

Edited by krise madsen
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Now, I did say "or some setup along those lines" ;)

So, what we're all saying is that the games industry in general (and some companies in particular) have decided to focus their efforts and resources towards console games, at the expense of previous emphasis on PC games?

But isn't this simply a business decision? Why can this generate so much hostility among gamers towards the industry? I mean, I can fully understand gamers (i.e. customers) getting angry when lured into spending money on an unfinished game and things of that nature. But to be angry about a business strategy?

Now, I'm an old-school GR fan myself and I play almost exclusively on PC. I quite frankly wouldn't bat an eye if all console games were taken of the market tomorrow. But on the other hand I can't really fault the games industry for making a business decision (i.e. focusing on consoles), be it right or wrong.

And please note that I'm not singling out individuals, this thread or even this forum. I'm just curious, and I honestly would like to know if anyone has an explanation? :)

Respectfully

krise madsen

I fully understand where your coming from Krise but unfortunately you qualified your above argument with a flawed example.

Of course you wouldn't bat an eyelid if all CONSOLE games were dropped tomorrow because you already stated you play almost exclusively on PC. BUT I bet you would bat an eyelid if all PC games were dropped tomorrow.

I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise, but can understand people being angry about decisions that directly effect them.

I'm a die hard motorcyclist and I know for a fact that most people would probably applaud if motorcycles were banned from the roads tomorrow (due mainly to the stupid middle age manager set being idiots on their GSX/RR/ZXR's). But it would upset the hell outta me and other riders be it a business decision on the manufacturers part or not.

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I fully understand where your coming from Krise but unfortunately you qualified your above argument with a flawed example.

Of course you wouldn't bat an eyelid if all CONSOLE games were dropped tomorrow because you already stated you play almost exclusively on PC. BUT I bet you would bat an eyelid if all PC games were dropped tomorrow.

I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise, but can understand people being angry about decisions that directly effect them.

I'm a die hard motorcyclist and I know for a fact that most people would probably applaud if motorcycles were banned from the roads tomorrow (due mainly to the stupid middle age manager set being idiots on their GSX/RR/ZXR's). But it would upset the hell outta me and other riders be it a business decision on the manufacturers part or not.

Hmm, yes I suppose I didn't present that very well, did I?

What I meant to ask was: Why does a business decision cause so much resentment in the gamer community? Why the implication that the games industry is "evil" or "bad"?

I mean, I like images of beautiful women in very light clothing, and if Playboy Magazine some day went to an all-text format because people actually bought the magazine for the articles I would not be very happy about it. But, to me at least, there is a huge gap between not liking their business decision (be it right or wrong) and actually resenting, if not outright hating, Hef for it.

I guess all I'm asking is why computer games seem to induce such strong reaction from the customers? Why is there this sense that the customers has a sort of "ownership" or "moral claim" on this particular product?

Respectfully

krise madsen

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I guess all I'm asking is why computer games seem to induce such strong reaction from the customers? Why is there this sense that the customers has a sort of "ownership" or "moral claim" on this particular product?

I don't think it's just computer gaming. It's human nature to become emotionally attached to things - be it motorcycling or gaming or rock climbing (for my example). When you do become emotionally attached it's only natural that you extend some feelings of "ownership" or "entitlement" (probably a bad word to use but it narrowly fits) with that thing or activity. However when the thing you are emotionally attached to is threatened or looks to be changed in an unfavorable way that you don't like, then your reaction is going to be to protect or defend it in some way. That is simply human nature and I do not think it is reserved for computer gaming alone. The real question is how far or how much people will react. Some more than others but I think we all have feelings of "ownership" no matter how small with those things that we genuinely love.

Edited by FI_FlimFlam
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I guess all I'm asking is why computer games seem to induce such strong reaction from the customers? Why is there this sense that the customers has a sort of "ownership" or "moral claim" on this particular product?

I don't think it's just computer gaming. It's human nature to become emotionally attached to things - be it motorcycling or gaming or rock climbing (for my example). When you do become emotionally attached it's only natural that you extend some feelings of "ownership" or "entitlement" (probably a bad word to use but it narrowly fits) with that thing or activity. However when the thing you are emotionally attached to is threatened or looks to be changed in an unfavorable way that you don't like, then your reaction is going to be to protect or defend it in some way. That is simply human nature and I do not think it is reserved for computer gaming alone. The real question is how far or how much people will react. Some more than others but I think we all have feelings of "ownership" no matter how small with those things that we genuinely love.

There is also the fact that almost any branding nowadays is actually designed to instill this feeling of ownership and loyalty, gaming included.

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I guess all I'm asking is why computer games seem to induce such strong reaction from the customers? Why is there this sense that the customers has a sort of "ownership" or "moral claim" on this particular product?

Respectfully

krise madsen

It could also be atributed to the fact that the GR franchise had and still has such a huge following. I have played many games over my years but the GR franchise is the only one I have seen outside of maybe WOW that has had such a huge community follow it for so many years.

I could only imagine what would happen if the publishers of WOW decided to go console and drop the PC version.

I have the feeling the reaction would be very similar if not worse.

Hundreds of clans participated in GR in either an advisarial or Co-op arena. People could'nt wait for the next tourney or ladder match. It became a friend and companion. Any friendship lasting that long brings about a certain amount of attachment be it emotional or physical.

When that link or frienship becomes endangerd we as humans tend to defend it even if we don't own it. There are many examples of this happening every day. Save the trees, the tigers the whales a heritage house or building.

Thou we don't own them we feel attached to them and therefore defend them.

Edited by Creatch
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I guess all I'm asking is why computer games seem to induce such strong reaction from the customers? Why is there this sense that the customers has a sort of "ownership" or "moral claim" on this particular product?

Respectfully

krise madsen

It could also be atributed to the fact that the GR franchise had and still has such a huge following. I have played many games over my years but the GR franchise is the only one I have seen outrside of maybe WOW that has had such a huge community follow it for so many years.

I could only imagine what would happen if the publishers of WOW decided to go console and drop the PC version.

I have the feeling the recation would be very similar if not worse.

Hundreds of clans participated in GR in either an advisarial or Co-op arena. People could'nt wait for the next tourney or ladder match. It became a friend and companion. Any friendship lasting that long brings about a certain amount of attachment be it emotional or physical.

When that link or frienship becomes endangerd we as humans tend to defend it even if we don't own it. There are many examples of this happening every day. Save the trees, the tigers the whales a heritage house or building.

Thou we don't own them we feel attached to them and therefore defend them.

Agreed. I've never seen a game that has elicited such a strong sense of protectionism (I don't play WOW but I hear it is like that, too).

I still play [GR] SP missions to this day. GRAW 1 was installed, played and removed but [GR] is ALWAYS installed when I re-image my game machine... [GR] is part of the base image I built for that system. Sure the graphics look primitive by today's standards, but no other game has EVER pulled me into that world like [GR]. I know where a tango is and yet when he shoots me the sound from the subwoofer STILL stops my heart... I turn off the lights in the office and I'm drawn into that world... I actually lean in my chair as I peek around corners... it's crazy, but I love it.

-jk

Callsign 3Point

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Good points y'all. :)

So I suppose it's mainly a question of some people getting more fired up over games than others.

In a feeble attemt to get back on topic I'd like to ask what you guys think is the best PR strategy in terms of sharing info about a new game?

Blackfoot Studios seem to let it all hang out, warts and all, very, very early in the proces. In contrast, some developers/publishers seem to keep basic gameplay info and screenshots confidential even after release.

For the game maker, the ultimate purpose is of course to sell more games. For gamers, knowing if the game is one you'd like to play is of course important, and the fun of discussing screenshots and other pre-release info is of course very entertaining.

But what do you guys think is the proper amount of information? From the developers perspective? From the publishers? From the gamers?

Respectfully

krise madsen

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Good points y'all. :)

In a feeble attemt to get back on topic I'd like to ask what you guys think is the best PR strategy in terms of sharing info about a new game?

Blackfoot Studios seem to let it all hang out, warts and all, very, very early in the proces. In contrast, some developers/publishers seem to keep basic gameplay info and screenshots confidential even after release.

For the game maker, the ultimate purpose is of course to sell more games. For gamers, knowing if the game is one you'd like to play is of course important, and the fun of discussing screenshots and other pre-release info is of course very entertaining.

But what do you guys think is the proper amount of information? From the developers perspective? From the publishers? From the gamers?

Respectfully

krise madsen

While information is a good thing, too much can be harmful if released improperly.

Because of the huge following of this franchise it would stand to reason the those following it are rather informed about the game they have been playing.

So screenshots are nice but more times than not they are doctored up a bit. Edges smoothed out and such. Videos are just pure PR as they are not even of gameplay but just a high end cartoon.

The customer is smart, give us real gameplay video. Give us screenshots. Give us some info as to what the game with have.

You don't have to give it all away but something is a far better way to generate interest and goodwill than nothing.

I mean some info about game content. Is it all advisarial ? Does it have a decent Co-op mode ? Have you increased the amount of options avail for weapons ? Have you included dedicated server tools or are you using a third party server tool ?

How many maps ? Those that don't mod are really not interested in a game with say only 4 maps as they get old very quickly. But they do rely on those who do to provide content. Which by the way was one of the downfalls of GR. You had to be a 3D studio max expert to make a good map for GR. That and the size limitations on map size.

Once AW had come out within weeks maps were flying off computers everywhere. Some good some bad but they kept comming as AW came with a rather simple map editor. A great move.

The mission editor however is extreemly lacking as far as AW goes. Hopeing AW2 is much better. Another bit of info that would be greatly apreciated.

You don't have to release it all at once. Give it to us a little at a time. If the game is comming out in a year, then say every quarter (3months). But to release just a few little tidbits and rely heavily on a high end cartoon video of the game is just plain annoying. We are smarter than that. Even AW had developer interviews and such every now and then. No real concrete info but some hints to build anticipation and speculation.

Edited by Creatch
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I guess all I'm asking is why computer games seem to induce such strong reaction from the customers? Why is there this sense that the customers has a sort of "ownership" or "moral claim" on this particular product?

Respectfully

krise madsen

This one is easy.

Strong reaction = fear of the absence of their favorite addictive component.

Gaming is an addiction for many. Plain and simple. I know it is for me and I can tell from many of the posts here, that it is for many of you too. To deny this is intellectually dishonest. Coffee is my other big addiction. Slef induced surges in both Adrenalin (norepinephrine - an alpha receptor stimulator which cuased many bodily reactions including heart rate increase, vascular compression and icnreased blood pressure etc - flight if you will )and cortisol (a stress induced steriod secreted from the adrenal glands - which sits atop the kidneys) are the molecular culprits of gaming addiction.

It is no different than when a person's cigarettes are messed with to the have all of the nicotine removed. After a couple of qiuck smokes, the addicted individual knows that his addictive component has been removed. For those that have very specific ideas and feelings about certain features in our tac-sims, they feel their nicotine may be missing from their next cigarette ... er ... desired tac sim game .... and they don't like it. It scares them. they know their current game lacks the potency ... they ahve played it for too long .... and they yearn for the next fix/rush.

It takes a very special smoker in deed to keep his cool under such circumstances. Many smokers ... er ... Gamers ... lose their cool and post hostile posts becuase of their fear of losing their addictive fix ... and it makes them irrational.

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Don't forget the fan base or potential fanbase will treat new intellectual property differently than existing IP with that has all the baggage and history attached to it. They might be willing to accept a different type of gameplay or approach to it because it is new and not supposed to be related to a previous game or series. BFS has the advantage of this. They can let it all hang out and those who don't like what they see can't say "well the last version wasn't like this!" Of course some will still say whatever BFS releases isn't GR but most will not hold that against the title as that it's just that, NOT Ghost Recon.

If BFS's game were the 2nd or 3rd in a series, trust me most of the same people here lamenting changes made in GRAW would be doing the same if they enjoyed the hypothetical first one from BFS.

Being just introduced to a new game or series is nice in that you have no preconceptions or expectations based on a previous game in the series. Most will be willing to accept a difference just because of that fact alone.

Rogue warrior is going to be released from Bethesda (I think) soon. Are you guys going to judge that one and critize it because it's not GR? I didn't think so.

The point is going back to the emotional attachment to the game. With new IP, there is none to hold it back and the developers have nothing to "hide" from an existing fan base that they have to be concerned about upsetting.

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