ZJJ Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) A poll requested by Ick. Many players ask why the single player cover system was not introduced in GRAW2 multi player. Certainly many successful shooters now include a cover system. Examples include: Gears of War, Rainbow Six: Vegas, Perfect Dark Zero. I think everyone can agree that introduction of a cover system in GRAW would change the series quite a bit. A few of my thoughts before you vote: This is of course just a game, but a game that puts forth an attempt at a more "real" experience than other shooters. Inside that argument is a concern that a cover system could damage that core Ghost Recon principle. Arguments for EXCLUDING the cover system * GRAW has OTS view that already allows you to stand behind cover and see over/around objects as you can in games with cover systems. * The current OTS view challenges players to properly take cover themselves and not "depend" on the developers making an idiot proof cover system function. * Many players, already concerned with the "magical" aspect of OTS view and therefore conclude that a cover system will further degrade this tactical shooter into a game just like other "ease of use" titles on the market. * GRAW's leaning feature is superior to a "cover system" since it requires the soldier to manually peek from cover... and rightfully expose himself to fire as he does so. * From a marketing standpoint LACK of a cover system in multi player sets this game apart from the other shooters on the market. * From comments I have noted from military professional...the way a soldier engages the cover system in Rainbow Six Vegas is not a method deployed in outdoor combat situations. The comments I have read indicate that soldiers use cover with their rifle forward and at the ready, not the "hollywood" style cover system. * Some of the cover in GRAW, like bushes and uneven trees, do not lend themselves to a cover system. * Popping out from cover with an immediate and very accurate shot goes against one of the very core principles of GRAW, can a soldier do that in reality? Of course not. * A cover system may also include blind fire. Do professional soldiers in outdoor combat blind fire on a regular basis? I would guess probably not...but a comment from someone with combat experience would be nice. * Getting killed by a guy behind cover using an in-game cover system is no fun and takes little skill.Arguments including the cover system * The most recent thing in shooters is a cover system. GRAW lacking a cover system puts the series squarely in the "has-been" category. * A cover system integrated in the game helps new players use cover effectively and compete with veteran players. * A cover system in the game would be more fun overall * A cover system is "cool".I am wondering what the consensus is among GRAW 2 players here, do you want the single player cover system in GRAW? Edited April 13, 2007 by ZJJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ick Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJJ Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 Dang, I just realized there are typing errors! I didn't think I would have to proof it before posting. :no: Oh, you're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS PALADIN Posted April 14, 2007 Share Posted April 14, 2007 I could go into a long draw out argument why cover system would be a big mistake for GR online play, but i'll keep it short. COVER MODE SUCKS. There. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpreacher Posted April 14, 2007 Share Posted April 14, 2007 I'm only ok with a cover system only if they get rid of 3rd person veiw if a cover system ever happens that is. If you go into a cover and it's still 3rd person than i do not want to see a cover system. I want you to peek your head around a coner to see whats there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cons72 Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 For one thing, does every game have to clone every other game and have all the same features? This game is already getting worse in my opinion because they are making changes that make it play "faster" and make it easier for people to pick up and play. I for one would like the game to play like [GR]. That game was truly unique, and I have had so little MP time on it because I did not find out about it until after GR2 was released. Just look at how dead these boards are compared to even when GR:SS was released. With every release of a new GR title, more and more of the fans who posted on these forums are just walking away. They are killing the GR franchise in the name of drawing in the casual gamer. Soon it will be near impossible to differentiate the game play from any other shooter. That has been their business decision, and it seems they are sticking with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ick Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Cons, I agree with a good bit of what you say. Since the objective is units sold and revenue...not sure it is going to have much impact though in the short term. My concern is.....In the long term, continued changes in this direction SHOULD degrade the product line shouldn't it? I mean constant compromizes in quality and core beliefs HAVE to shake the long term revenue objectives of the game? Long-term series like Star Trek is a good comparison. The follow-up series to the original series and movies had their problems...but overall they stuck with some core principles. With Star Trek: Voyager the series really started to degrade. With the advernt of Star Trek: Enterprise it was said that the team did not watch the previous series NOR did they stick to a lot of the core principles....and left the entire entertainment product line in shambles. By the way, I watched almost none of those two series. Being a sci-fi fan it is clear to me that not only did they lose the core fan of the series....they also lost the interest of the general public. No revenue = failure The series is destroyed....until such time in the future when it can be again revived. ...of course now that I think of it.........many critics said that "There has been simply way too much Star Trek, people want something new". There is that aspect to it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ick Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 By the way: This particular spot is probably more important to vote on: http://forums.xbox.com/11685173/ShowPost.aspx It certainly will have more votes...and possibly might actually make it into the hands of the developers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cons72 Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Ick, I agree with your assessment, as geeky as it was. Besides, everyone knows Star Wars is far superior. Anyway, I think proof that Ubi has made a poor decision in "opening the game up to a wider audience," is in a couple of places. First, the interest in the forums both here and on the Ubisoft forums, and to an extent the Xbox forums, and Gamefaqs. In all those places there is very little traffic compared to previous titles. Second, look at the XBL top live games. GRAW2 comes in 5th. So, what Ubi has done, in my opinion, is they have taken the series away from the fan base in hopes of broadening the user base, but they have not created a game that the wider user base is terribly interested in playing, compared to other shooters. In essence, what they have done is they have taken a very unique shooter and made it into an average shooter that not too many people really care about all that much. There is a good chance GRAW2 will be off the top ten by June. Xbox 360 Top Live Titles (UU’s) 1 Gears of War 2 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 3 Guitar Hero II 4 Call Of Duty 3 5 GRAW 2 6 Crackdown 7 Oblivion 8 Pro Evolution Soccer 6 9 Madden NFL 07 10 Saints Row Has anyone seen sales data on GRAW2 for the first month of release? P.S. after thinking about it some more, opening the game up to a wider audience is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think they have not executed that transition very well. They gave up too much of the uniqueness without creating an interesting game that draws in the larger audience for anything more than a cup of coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisper_44 Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Would be nice if they would ad a lean function, but not the current cover system. A cover system needs to be more intuitive, and the functionality in the SP campaign is cumbersome. The Vegas CS is about right as far as implementation (yes it's completely unrealistic, but it's easy to activate) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ick Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 Interesting thinking Cons. Would be nice if they would ad a lean function, but not the current cover system. A cover system needs to be more intuitive, and the functionality in the SP campaign is cumbersome. The Vegas CS is about right as far as implementation (yes it's completely unrealistic, but it's easy to activate) You know what I cannot stand about GRAW2 single player? My guy is constantly sticking to walls I have no intention of using the SP cover system on. Ugh, I can't stand it. Being able to turn the stickey cover system OFF in single player would improve the game tremendously. Can you imagine the hours and hours the programmers spent designing the single player cover system? .....and all I want to do with it is turn the thing OFF. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpreacher Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 I just have to say real fast after what i said in my last post here. I'm not for a cover system at all. To be honest i would hate it. It's just since this game is most likely going down the wrong road as it is and aint stopping it may just happen anyways. Only way i would like to see it added was without 3rd person veiw. Other than that no i would not want a cover system and would rather see the old peek system brought back in. Half the time i find it to much work to even use the peek system now in the heat of battle, as it is with the need of a 2 botton combo. P.S. If they want to add in anything i still only want one new feature and that is FPWV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1ngsh0t Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 No - Lots of options in GRAW2 already such as switching shoulders, going prone, leaning etc. to make use of cover. The only way adding a cover system would improve the game was if it also forced 1st person view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raw Kryptonite Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 (edited) I'd LOVE to see GR do the opposite of what Rainbow Vegas did: Go from THIRD person to FIRST person when at cover. And as you get close to a wall, tree, rock whatever, the 3rd person perspective gets in closer and closer and is finally a 1st person view. That could eliminate the 3rd person super corner vision, retain the 3rd person peripheral vision for most of the game, and use 1st person when at a doorway or wall, so you do NOT have the "around the corner vision". -------------------------- As for the lean vs cover, I'll get a little more use out of my standard answer: Excerpt from the Tao of Raw Kryptonite, source of NORK: Natural Order of Raw Kryptonite Do we really have to choose? Why not both? Some situations are better for cover, such as in Rainbow Six Vegas--urban, buildings, doorways etc. Also, like in GRAW1 & 2 single player, which is largely urban. However, GRAW2 multiplayer is mostly natural environments: flat land, rock, trees. A cover function doesn't work there--leaning does. Cover functions don't work well prone either. You need to be able to lean when prone. IMO, GRAW2 could have had both. Map the cover to the left trigger like in Vegas. Focused aim in the open, near cover, he takes cover and uses the close up, directly over shoulder focused aiming. That would ALSO prevent the extra "around the corner" vision. (if it was tight enough) The reason people don't like cover functions, like in Rainbow, is that you're given sight you wouldn't realistically have---like to the other side of the wall you're taking cover with. If that line of sight problem was fixed, I see no reason anyone would have a problem with cover functions. THAT is what needs to be changed. When that issue is licked, then it just becomes an issue of keys/buttons for keyboard or controller to keep it quick and easy to implement a lean and cover. I see no reason to have to CHOOSE between the two, unless there is an issue of lack of controls available to implement. Cover systems are a good idea, I just don't think we've seen it done right yet. (see my suggestion at the top) GRAW was...ok...Gears of War was a little better, Rainbow has been the best so far (scientifically proven at MIT). However, none have gotten it right to be realistic in the view you are offered. It's a fairly new idea with only a few games having tried it, so there's still plenty of room for improvement. Like I said above, I don't want to choose, I want BOTH. But I want the cover system perfected. Edited April 16, 2007 by Raw Kryptonite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xFilter Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Has anyone seen sales data on GRAW2 for the first month of release? Top 10 games for March 2007, based on number of units sold: 1. God of War II--PS2--833,000 2. Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2--Xbox 360--394,000 3. Guitar Hero 2--Xbox 360--291,000 4. Wii Play with Wii Remote--Wii--273,000 5. MotorStorm--PS3--199,000 6. Diddy Kong Racing--Nintendo DS--189,000 7. Spectrobes--Nintendo DS--165,000 8. MLB 2K7--Xbox 360--165,000 9. MLB '07: The Show--PS2--164,000 10. Def Jam Icon--Xbox 360--148,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cons72 Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Has anyone seen sales data on GRAW2 for the first month of release? Top 10 games for March 2007, based on number of units sold: 1. God of War II--PS2--833,000 2. Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2--Xbox 360--394,000 3. Guitar Hero 2--Xbox 360--291,000 4. Wii Play with Wii Remote--Wii--273,000 5. MotorStorm--PS3--199,000 6. Diddy Kong Racing--Nintendo DS--189,000 7. Spectrobes--Nintendo DS--165,000 8. MLB 2K7--Xbox 360--165,000 9. MLB '07: The Show--PS2--164,000 10. Def Jam Icon--Xbox 360--148,000 Interesting to compare the Live activity to that list. Though it was the second selling game, it has been fifth on the played list the past two weeks. That tells me people are losing interest in the game and putting it away. They are selling more games, but making a less compelling product. It is not creating the kind of dedicated fan that [GR] or even GR2 did. Xbox 360 Top Live Titles (UU’s) 1 Gears of War 2 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 3 Guitar Hero II 4 Call Of Duty 3 5 GRAW 2 6 Boom Boom Rocket 7 Crackdown 8 Oblivion 9 Pro Evolution Soccer 6 10 Madden NFL 07 GR2 is still 8th on the Xbox played list. Original Xbox Top Live Games 1 Halo 2 2 Battlefield 2: MC 3 Counter-Strike 4 Madden NFL 07 5 Forza Motorsport 6 Call of Duty 3 7 Star Wars: Battlfrnt 2 8 Ghost Recon 2 9 Rainbow Six 3 BA 10 Rainbow Six 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xFilter Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 (edited) Has anyone seen sales data on GRAW2 for the first month of release? Top 10 games for March 2007, based on number of units sold: 1. God of War II--PS2--833,000 2. Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2--Xbox 360--394,000 3. Guitar Hero 2--Xbox 360--291,000 4. Wii Play with Wii Remote--Wii--273,000 5. MotorStorm--PS3--199,000 6. Diddy Kong Racing--Nintendo DS--189,000 7. Spectrobes--Nintendo DS--165,000 8. MLB 2K7--Xbox 360--165,000 9. MLB '07: The Show--PS2--164,000 10. Def Jam Icon--Xbox 360--148,000 Interesting to compare the Live activity to that list. Though it was the second selling game, it has been fifth on the played list the past two weeks. That tells me people are losing interest in the game and putting it away. They are selling more games, but making a less compelling product. It is not creating the kind of dedicated fan that [GR] or even GR2 did. Xbox 360 Top Live Titles (UU’s) 1 Gears of War 2 Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 3 Guitar Hero II 4 Call Of Duty 3 5 GRAW 2 6 Boom Boom Rocket 7 Crackdown 8 Oblivion 9 Pro Evolution Soccer 6 10 Madden NFL 07 GR2 is still 8th on the Xbox played list. Original Xbox Top Live Games 1 Halo 2 2 Battlefield 2: MC 3 Counter-Strike 4 Madden NFL 07 5 Forza Motorsport 6 Call of Duty 3 7 Star Wars: Battlfrnt 2 8 Ghost Recon 2 9 Rainbow Six 3 BA 10 Rainbow Six 3 Comparing where GRAW2 is on one list compared to where GR2 is on the other list means nothing. You would need to find the actual number of people playing the 2 to really compare them. For one the number of people playing on LIVE on 360's I'm sure is more than double the number of people playing on LIVE on the original XBOX. There may be only 100 people playing GR2 on the XBOX and could still make the top 10 original Xbox live titles. To sell almost 400,ooo copies in it's first month of being released says alot about GRAW 2 especially when you consider GRAW itself is barely a yr old and is still popular on LIVE. I am willing to bet there are more people playing GRAW1 on live than there are playing GR2 and it did'nt even crack the top ten Xbox 360 Top Live Titles (UU’s). Edited April 21, 2007 by xFilter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cons72 Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Well, I think you managed to pull out and try to pick apart a point I wasn't trying to make. My point was simply that Ubi is trading unique lasting game experience for a generic shooter that lots of people buy, then quickly lose interest in. What you should be looking at is that while GRAW2 was the number 2 selling game, it was number 5 of games actually played the last two weeks. Combine that with looking at the very low traffic on this board and the Ubi board compared to traffic after [GR], GRIT, GR2, GRSS, and even GRAW were released, and you can start to draw some assumptions that Ubi is developing a game to sell well out of the gate, but does not have the depth and lasting appeal that built up the community that [GR] was able to build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xFilter Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Just a quick note (and I know this has nothing to do with your point) GRAW2 has now sold over 1 million copies. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6169767.html?...estnews;title;2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS PALADIN Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Just a quick note (and I know this has nothing to do with your point) GRAW2 has now sold over 1 million copies. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6169767.html?...estnews;title;2 And most of those people bought GRAW2 for the single player. If they had of bought it for Multiplayer then it would be alot higher then 5th with over 1 million potential players. So it in fact further proves cons point. Previous GR games would have had a higher percentage of the people would bought the game playing online. And playing online regualrly. GRAW 2 or the next GR desperately needs a more hardcore feel to it. Even if its just an option. Switch it between simulation ( old skool ) and normal ( present ) modes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1ngsh0t Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 It also interesting to note that Titles 1 - 4 have all offered DLC at this point (I think GH's came out a little while ago even though it is a very new launch). GoW's was even free. If companies are planning on keeping interest high and maximizing sales of DLC they need to start releasing it earlier rather than later. Even at this time I know regular GRAW2 MP players who might pass on DLC since GRAW2 is not getting the playing time that we had expected (some of this is due to summer coming but a lot is also due to RB6, GoW and CoD pulling players away with fresh content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cons72 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 It also interesting to note that Titles 1 - 4 have all offered DLC at this point (I think GH's came out a little while ago even though it is a very new launch). GoW's was even free. If companies are planning on keeping interest high and maximizing sales of DLC they need to start releasing it earlier rather than later. Even at this time I know regular GRAW2 MP players who might pass on DLC since GRAW2 is not getting the playing time that we had expected (some of this is due to summer coming but a lot is also due to RB6, GoW and CoD pulling players away with fresh content. Not to mention for the past 10 days now, the game search function has been broken. I wonder if Major Nelson will release the XBL stats for this week? But anyway, the drop-off in MP started even before the search problem. I have a nearly full friends list, almost all added through GR games. Last night I had 23 friends online and 4 were playing GRAW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1ngsh0t Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Last night we had a mini GRAW event between two gaming sites and barely filled a room. A month ago we had to break into 3 rooms ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raw Kryptonite Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Yeah, I'm not happy with GRAW2 dropping off so much. It's a great MP game and I've barely learned the maps. It's a lot better than the last one, it should be going strong but just doesn't seem to be holding attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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