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Also the RED diamonds are, to me, unnecessary and that code will be used to expoit the game or even used in a hack.

Thh markers are part of the Cross-Com system which the game is build around. So they will most definently be there.

Edited by Wolfsong
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What i would like is someway to shut names off and go reticule or none at all. When you are playing on a 32 person server, names take away from the immersion and get in the way. If keeping names at least only make them appear if there is no object in front of them.

In these pics i don't see names but that may be because it's co-op.

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Options controled server side (or user side in Single player) are a good thing. the best multiplyer games dont decide for teh player what is the best way to play. it lets the servers decide. its 2007 now. the on/off toggle in setup is a well developed technology and should be used.

:)

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Options controled server side (or user side in Single player) are a good thing. the best multiplyer games dont decide for teh player what is the best way to play. it lets the servers decide. its 2007 now. the on/off toggle in setup is a well developed technology and should be used.

True.

Still, as the game promotes the cross-com idea, as said before, being able to turn things off in it won't be what the inial release is aimed at. It's not part of the game concept so to speak. So looking from a developer point of view its a feature more likely to be patched in later.

EDIT: It's not that I wouldn't want them gone. Remember that I was the first to mod away the threat indicator and all hostile tactical map icons in GR1. :P

Edited by Wolfsong
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Just for the record, I like the red diamond implementation. It simulates a concept of a linked-in future soldier with visual aid on his HUD. This is what 2014 should look like. In fact, 2014 should actually look like this and then some for ELITE soldiers of that period. and That is what I am buying GRAW to simulate for me.

Also worth noting is that the HUD diamond is not a "perfect" technology. It is a "line of sight" technology that combines the satellite image and the cross com info. Enemy hiding just under an overhang and around a corner can still jump out, no diamond, and bust you up. In fact, I have noticed that sometimes, the diamond takes many seconds to come on screen once a enemy is detected. seems to be modeling some real system delays in getting the info to you.

I like system implementations that are possible but still not "software perfect". Like real stuff.

Edited by Sleepdoc
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Also the RED diamonds are, to me, unnecessary and that code will be used to expoit the game or even used in a hack.

Dude, shut up, you made the same comment in a whole nother THREAD. It's a part of the Advanced Warfighter Crosscomm premise, it's not going anywhere, just live with it. If you can't deal with it, go play some other game. If you don't understand it, just don't comment about it.

Anyways, it WOULD be great if the on screen crosscomm was full video, because I doubt it'd be wireframe in the Future Force Warrior implementation.

And besides, I doubt they'd change the multiplayer mechanics too much. They'd probably leave the diamonds, or at least the hostile ones, off permanently in MP for balance purposes.

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Even though the HUD diamond has starred in official US Army animations of Future Warrior technology, it is, like it or not, not perfectly realistic. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions and form their own opinions from that.

Respectfully

krise madsen

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Dude, shut up, you made the same comment in a whole nother THREAD. It's a part of the Advanced Warfighter Crosscomm premise, it's not going anywhere, just live with it. If you can't deal with it, go play some other game. If you don't understand it, just don't comment about it.

Why do I suddenly think someone needs a little less caffeine and a little warning from the Admins...

-jk

callsign 3point

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More of the same is'nt necessarily a bad thing, I enjoyed GRAW1 so really looking forward to the sequel. although it is hard to speculate on whats new in terms of features and gameplay, but thats because of lack of information released from UBI.

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Those sceenshots looks to much GRAW1-like to me. I wonder why it is called GRAW2 instead of GRAW1 expansion pack ? :hmm:

<_<

My attitude these days are not to judge anything without having experienced the complete product. It may look the same on these screenshot but if gameplay, gamemodes, options, netcode etc. are enhanced and are better than GRAW1, I think they are entitled to call it GRAW2.

If it was only exact the same game as GRAW1 with only a new campaign and new maps it should be called an Expansion Pack. Though from what I have read this is not the case.

Go GRIN :grin1:

Edited by Toniezz
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Those sceenshots looks to much GRAW1-like to me. I wonder why it is called GRAW2 instead of GRAW1 expansion pack ? :hmm:

here we go again...

Your never going ot get away from the comments. The players ... the real players ........ will know in short order if its the same all over agan or not. Guys like me who completed the single player campaign in both SP and Coop and then plaed lots [GR] coop and TDM, Seige and Hamburger haven't left too many features or stones unturned. We know its play. WE know its warts. A few days after release, it will be evident just exactly what has changed.

Personally, I dont care what you call it. GRAW2. GRAW again. etc. As long as its as good as 1.35 plus better in some meaningful ways, I will be happy to pay 50 bucks all over again. I'm getting more than my money's worth out of GRAW1. In fact, upgrading teh graphics again is probably a mistake for this title. The grpahicsa re great and more people can handle them now. thats a good thing. Leave that alone.

And no serious gamer thinks an upgrade in the graphics engine is reason to (or not to) call a game version 2.0 vs. expenasion pack. Your graphics engine is likely good enough to carry new versions for a few rounds. The issue isn't graphics. It's AI behavior, control features, maps and environment, game modes, weapons and modeling, SDK, SADS files and moddability. etc.

Edited by Sleepdoc
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I recall reading once that the heart beat monitor (electrocardiogram) does in face, mean something. As I reacll, the longer you run, the redder it gets. The redder it gets, the longer it takes to return to green and the color of the EKD firectly effects bullet spread while youa re shooting. The idea is that a tired person breathing hard cannot keep as staedy a shot with a recoiling gun as can a calm shooter breathing nromally.

I have never tested this to see if the implementation is actually in place. I originally though we would see gun sway when trying to hold hte gun steady, but i dont see that. So I always assumed it was modelled as bullet spread.

Anyone know any more about whether or not this type of modeling of "Tired after running" made it into the game?

I recall that post too (before GRAW release), but honestly, I and others have not noticed much difference in the game...

Thus, the problem is that there is a ECG that displays a heartrate that seems irrelevant in practise. I don't know any MP player that cares if the ECG (heartrate) is red or not.

Also, you should not need to look at a heart rate meter to know if you are tired or not.

You should "hear" and "experience" that by heavy breathing, slow gun raise, slow reload, have more recoil than usual etc etc

In the same field is the damage system.

You should not need to look at your color indicator to see if you were hit/are injured or not.

You should "hear" and "experience" that by substantial viewspin and heavy breathing, limp, slow gun raise, slow reload, have more recoil than usual etc etc

The GRAW damage model was a step backwards compared with [GR], which is a shame really, because GRAW is so good on many other aspects.

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I recall reading once that the heart beat monitor (electrocardiogram) does in face, mean something. As I reacll, the longer you run, the redder it gets. The redder it gets, the longer it takes to return to green and the color of the EKD firectly effects bullet spread while youa re shooting. The idea is that a tired person breathing hard cannot keep as staedy a shot with a recoiling gun as can a calm shooter breathing nromally.

I have never tested this to see if the implementation is actually in place. I originally though we would see gun sway when trying to hold hte gun steady, but i dont see that. So I always assumed it was modelled as bullet spread.

Anyone know any more about whether or not this type of modeling of "Tired after running" made it into the game?

I recall that post too (before GRAW release), but honestly, I and others have not noticed much difference in the game...

Thus, the problem is that there is a ECG that displays a heartrate that seems irrelevant in practise. I don't know any MP player that cares if the ECG (heartrate) is red or not.

Also, you should not need to look at a heart rate meter to know if you are tired or not.

You should "hear" and "experience" that by heavy breathing, slow gun raise, slow reload, have more recoil than usual etc etc

In the same field is the damage system.

You should not need to look at your color indicator to see if you were hit/are injured or not.

You should "hear" and "experience" that by substantial viewspin and heavy breathing, limp, slow gun raise, slow reload, have more recoil than usual etc etc

The GRAW damage model was a step backwards compared with [GR], which is a shame really, because GRAW is so good on many other aspects.

Excellent post Peace. I have seen others discuss these issues in bits and pieces, but your review is a succinct and comprehensive review of the issue. Nicely written.

Let's hope GRiN had this information and has done something about it in their move toward GRAW2

I would add one small thing. I still like being able to see it on my HUD. Especially if their are multiple levels of "hurt". for example, in Raven shield, there was only 1 levels of hurt. The next level was "Dead". So the on screen indicator was kind of irrelevant. If you were limping, you were level hurt. Next injury and you were dead. In a system such as GRAW attempting to model body armour etc, it seeems they have about 4 or 5 levels of Hurt. And this can get confusing as to exactly which one you are at. Especially if the breating calms down over time. It's nice to have a HUD indicator for fast glance. as a precision reminder. After all, if you could actually "feel" the injury, you wouldnt need the crutches that games give us to tell us thiese things. Good crutches can still be good game elements. but even in that regard, i would like to have the option from setup to remove that peice from the HUD as I see fit.

I Love options.

I would be curious as to how you feel about Red orchestra's damage and indication mode. (I assume that most GRAW people have played RO, but I odn't know if you have).

I really like that model. You can get shot in teh hand. or the leg. Not only do you get a n onscreen indication that your hand or your leg is injured, you also get a real game implication as relates to that body part. I also like their approach to "exhuastion" from running. the more you run, the more exhausted you get. and you cannot run infintely. And once exhauasted, you get varying degrees of weapon and aim sway (reduced by improving your position from stability from standing to prone). And of course, rest reverses the loss of weapons aim control.

So far, RO seems to be the best model i have seen for incremental body injury and effect. What do you think is the best model out there so far?

Edited by Sleepdoc
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In [GR] you can switch to the squad screen ingame to see where you are injured. If you are injured in your torso and your arm then those areas will be marked red on the squad screen. Not sure if that's necessary, but we sure need a wound model.

EDIT: Btw, I like this screenshot. The shadows look really nice.

Edited by Hockeystick
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I would be curious as to how you feel about Red orchestra's damage and indication mode. (I assume that most GRAW people have played RO, but I odn't know if you have).

So far, RO seems to be the best model i have seen for incremental body injury and effect. What do you think is the best model out there so far?

Haven't tried RO, but the [GR] model with the distinct viewspin when hit and effects like limp, heavy breathing, (and) or "slow reticule" is the best damage model I've come across so far even though it was pretty basic. It gave tremendous positive effects on gameplay and enhanced the pure fun of gaming.

PS I agree that a health status indicator, preferably a figure showing the body part hit, via small figure on HUD (toggable on/off)still is valuable to verify the health status.

Sry for going off topic...Please give us some more in game screens to study in detail... I'm very curious of the new? reticule.:hmm:

Did GRIN finally get rid of the "unresponsive" dots around the GRAW reticule (that actually did not show the actual bullet spread (like it did in [GR]). If so, it is a good thing even if I'd have prefered to have the ret dots act like in [GR] when firing unscoped/without ironsights :thumbsup:

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I don't mind the red diamonds. If you're getting info fed to you from a satellite or something and they point out the hostiles it makes sense. Plus they aren't always on, like if they move away too far or behind something. It's much better then the x360 version. In that one, I actually felt like I was fighitng an army of red diamonds. They were so big and bright and the games overall contrast so strong you could almost see nothing else but the diamond. In the PC version, you get a pretty good look at the bad guys even with a red diamond.

However, I think people should be given an option to turn all that stuff off if they want? Is there one? Did someone mod it? Looking through the xmls, searching for the hud icon in the lower corner and messing with the scope sight, I can see how they probably are controlling the diamonds. Could be as simple as sending a blank diesel file with a point or transparent texture, or just setting the vis to false on the gfx tag in the xml. Someone must have done this already, but it would be easier if it was simply an on/off option.

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To me the graphics in GRAW are great even today, but then you never know what they have managed to tweak in that department, after all the diesel engine is always being added too. I went from an ATI X800xt to a X1950 PRO 512mb re started the game and loving it all over again so hopefully I can enjoy the sequel in all it's glory still! So not having to waste too many man hours upgrading the graphics hopefully the majority of the time was spent fine tuning everything else by GRiN.

We'll have to wait and see...

Edited by PONDLIFE
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the screenshots look though like the graphics have been tweaked some but who knows till I see it in game . Offtopic I just dont understand why people who dont like graw come into the forums to bash the game/grin/ubi constantly. I'm not the forum police and you have a right to your opinion but if I dont like a game, I DONT PLAY IT AND MOVE ON......Heck I was a big fan of DOOM but was totally let down by 3, never did I go into the forums there and say SCREW ID yadayadayada............I happen to like graw ALOT and that is my opinion.

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GRAW is run n' gun (if that's your cup of tea) but there are NO tactics. Judging by UBISOFTS track record, SP, R6 and a slew of other titles, you ask why people bash UBISOFT?

this negativity towards UBISOFT stems back to a time perhaps before you arrived at GR.net. GR2 was being anticipated by PC fans since GR was still going strong but, we wanted to go to Korea and continue the journey as the ghosta. but the game got cancelled. that's why..

The graphics look alot better than GRAW and I'll remain optimistic as I can but with the way UBISOFT is handling the xbox360 GRAW2 freezing up, what can we see but the same status quo.

I just hope to recoup from the badside of GRAW the last go around, Grin has a real opportunity to redo this as they have with the game engine I hear. also Grin can really win the fans who want a tactical shooter from the get go.

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GRAW is run n' gun (if that's your cup of tea) but there are NO tactics. Judging by UBISOFTS track record, SP, R6 and a slew of other titles, you ask why people bash UBISOFT?

this negativity towards UBISOFT stems back to a time perhaps before you arrived at GR.net. GR2 was being anticipated by PC fans since GR was still going strong but, we wanted to go to Korea and continue the journey as the ghosta. but the game got cancelled. that's why..

The graphics look alot better than GRAW and I'll remain optimistic as I can but with the way UBISOFT is handling the xbox360 GRAW2 freezing up, what can we see but the same status quo.

I just hope to recoup from the badside of GRAW the last go around, Grin has a real opportunity to redo this as they have with the game engine I hear. also Grin can really win the fans who want a tactical shooter from the get go.

Graw is however you play it. Take away the spawns and you get tactics (like for matches) make them unlimited and you get run and gun.

Same with GL. Take it away and the laggy ones that run and gun will rule. Put them back and they won't be running at you.

Tactics is a matter of opinion.

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GRAW is run n' gun (if that's your cup of tea) but there are NO tactics.........

Huh?

Wow. You certainly are entitled to your opinion, but unless I am living in a bubble, I just played months of VERY tactical single player, mission coop and [GR] coop.

Now. If you take a custom map and don’t have it set up with the right options or it’s just a poor balance or if you have the wrong number of players on the map for its size, it can break down. But GRAW is chock full of tactical if you choose to play it that way.

I think people are uncomfortable with the fact that GRAW lacked the options to make it like [GR] and it had more ways to allow tactical behavior to break down. But about 85% of my time spent with GRAW was dripping with tactical play. And if we didn't use those tactics, we would have died like dogs in the mean streets of Rebel Mexico (and sometimes did).

Granted, the easier AI settings can be runned and gunned. But not the hard. Their reflexes, aim, readiness and awareness were too high. So without a boat load of tactics including reconnoitering the arena and then setting up cross fires, flanks, cautious bounding over watch movements, proper use of cover, proper use of in game squad leader orders etc, our blood spilled. Every one of these tactics was used by our crew to survive.

Can you specify which tactics (I'm sure there are some) you feel were not useful in this game and should have been? Or were not available to implement due to some limitation of the game engine? I'm genuinely curious. I have no delusion that me and my buds are real spec ops guys who know it all. But I do know that I read about this stuff when I can (tactics and techniques of small squad movements in urban terrain), and we worked pretty hard to use the techniques we read about and learned. To us, it felt pretty tactical. Without the tactical techniques, we got our tailbones handed to us.

Are you talking about your nightly foray into TDM? Because TDM with 32 people is less than tactical for almost everyone on the map. But once in a while, a couple of buddies and I go private Teamspeak and play our tactical coop game in the TDM servers.

When the numbers of people are too high for the map size in TDM servers, it doesn't always get the outcome we are hoping for. Too many random encounters from the run and gun hopeful crowd. But we still kill those guys more than they kill us. But no question, that behavior makes our tactics seem silly. After all, tactical maneuvering only makes sense when the enemy cares something about preserving their own life too. But when the numbers of players vs. map size are right, we get a pretty tactical experience despite the fact that many people are still trying running and gunning.

OK. I said my piece. But I respect your play Papa6. I saw you take my head off more than a few times last night on the Xtreme servers.

What do you feel is missing to "force" players into a more tactical mode and further eliminate any run and gun possibilities.?

But consider this in closing. By giving us a game that allows for server admins to determine which style of play they want ton their server (depending on settings), GRiN can sell more copies, appeal to more people, and keep the genre alive. I fear (not sure) that a purely tactical shooter which cannot have its settings tweaked to be anything but hard core dig in the dirt tactical may be (again ... not sure ... see Blackfoot studios.... I'm rooting for them) doomed to low sales and obscurity in the shadow of the console generation........

Food for thought

Edited by Sleepdoc
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