this damn game is insane

[Leper Messiah]

I'm a huge fan of the [Ghost Recon] and completed multiple times, I've been out of the gaming loop for a few years (house+car = money pits). But I recently got a decent PC and decided to splash out the princely sum of 10 quid on GRAW.....bejesus the game is ridiculously hard. I'm all for realism (albeit GRAW has unrealistic elements to it), but dropping 4 men into a huge city with minimal backup and seemingly fighting the entire Mexican army is supremely and utterly stupid IMO. I play games to have FUN, I know some gamers like their games to be very hard but I'd guess they are in the minority.

I don't want anyone to lambast me with "you so crap dood get sum skillz" etc etc, ad infinitum. If anyone is thinking that whilst reading this I say "get a life", there's more to it than computer games that are stupidly hard. I feel that a truly excellent concept, with excellent presentation and graphics has been literally ruined by the sheer odds against you. Any soldier would probably say that urban warfare is the absolute worst and hardest theater of war to be in. I'm just aghast that the level designers could be so stupid and not balance the game to a larger audience. Not only that they also made the game seemingly impossible to cheat too, hell they may as well make a game called Ghost Recon advanced caveman next, to see if anyone can take down the Iranian Islamic govt with nothing but a hairy body and a club.

[Nutlink]

I wouldn't consider myself a hard core gamer, but personally I found GRAW to be rather easy once you figure out ways around the ridiculously stupid enemy AI. I felt that the original game and Raven Shield were harder than GRAW.

As for cheating, if you know a little bit about file editing it's actually rather easy to do things like make your gun more accurate or do more damage, or even give yourself "God" mode.

Welcome to the forums, too

[semjonov]

I'm a huge fan of the [Ghost Recon] and completed multiple times, I've been out of the gaming loop for a few years (house+car = money pits). But I recently got a decent PC and decided to splash out the princely sum of 10 quid on GRAW.....bejesus the game is ridiculously hard. I'm all for realism (albeit GRAW has unrealistic elements to it), but dropping 4 men into a huge city with minimal backup and seemingly fighting the entire Mexican army is supremely and utterly stupid IMO. I play games to have FUN, I know some gamers like their games to be very hard but I'd guess they are in the minority.

I don't want anyone to lambast me with "you so crap dood get sum skillz" etc etc, ad infinitum. If anyone is thinking that whilst reading this I say "get a life", there's more to it than computer games that are stupidly hard. I feel that a truly excellent concept, with excellent presentation and graphics has been literally ruined by the sheer odds against you. Any soldier would probably say that urban warfare is the absolute worst and hardest theater of war to be in. I'm just aghast that the level designers could be so stupid and not balance the game to a larger audience. Not only that they also made the game seemingly impossible to cheat too, hell they may as well make a game called Ghost Recon advanced caveman next, to see if anyone can take down the Iranian Islamic govt with nothing but a hairy body and a club.

I usually try to stay away from making coments like this but here it comes:

Get some 1337 skillz....;o)

Graw is not that hard, you just have to be more careful, after all you can probably take ten hits sometimes before yu go down.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

As Nutlink said, most feedback I've seen says it's to easy and there is not enough enemies. But there are different kinds of players, sure. The difficulty setting won't give you less enemies but it should make them less accurate with weapons and have a shorter detection distance.

As for cheating. Well... Games aren't made to be cheated through. But then again there has been the same major feedback here that the anti-cheat isn't good enough.

[Nutlink]

Not enough enemies? Blah, I hate taking out 80+ rebels on a mission with a four man squad. It's better than Vegas I suppose though. Personally I feel it shouldn't be any more than 40 (unless the 4 man squad gets upped to 9 again).

But, like you said, there are man kinds of players, and to each his own.

[Leper Messiah]

I wouldn't consider myself a hard core gamer, but personally I found GRAW to be rather easy once you figure out ways around the ridiculously stupid enemy AI. I felt that the original game and Raven Shield were harder than GRAW.

As for cheating, if you know a little bit about file editing it's actually rather easy to do things like make your gun more accurate or do more damage, or even give yourself "God" mode.

Welcome to the forums, too

Thanks for the welcome

But you are kidding right? The original is WAY easier than this damn game. I've editted files for many games and had no problems yet I tried the method of unpacking the bundles for god mode and it didn't work. I just don't like the fact that there's no "recon" at all in the game at many points, the original had a nice slow pace where I could methodically use bounding overwatch to clear areas. Yet this game all too often puts me in a situation where I have to run blindly away from a tank or a sudden influx of enemy troops. Usually into an area that is full of snipers. It's far too contrived. I'm just glad I only paid a tenner for it, I'll prolly play the 1st two missions a few times then return to Raven Shield, Ghost Recon, Swat 3 + 4 because they are all far superior games in the balance dept IMO.

I'm a huge fan of the [Ghost Recon] and completed multiple times, I've been out of the gaming loop for a few years (house+car = money pits). But I recently got a decent PC and decided to splash out the princely sum of 10 quid on GRAW.....bejesus the game is ridiculously hard. I'm all for realism (albeit GRAW has unrealistic elements to it), but dropping 4 men into a huge city with minimal backup and seemingly fighting the entire Mexican army is supremely and utterly stupid IMO. I play games to have FUN, I know some gamers like their games to be very hard but I'd guess they are in the minority.

I don't want anyone to lambast me with "you so crap dood get sum skillz" etc etc, ad infinitum. If anyone is thinking that whilst reading this I say "get a life", there's more to it than computer games that are stupidly hard. I feel that a truly excellent concept, with excellent presentation and graphics has been literally ruined by the sheer odds against you. Any soldier would probably say that urban warfare is the absolute worst and hardest theater of war to be in. I'm just aghast that the level designers could be so stupid and not balance the game to a larger audience. Not only that they also made the game seemingly impossible to cheat too, hell they may as well make a game called Ghost Recon advanced caveman next, to see if anyone can take down the Iranian Islamic govt with nothing but a hairy body and a club.

I usually try to stay away from making coments like this but here it comes:

Get some 1337 skillz....;o)

Graw is not that hard, you just have to be more careful, after all you can probably take ten hits sometimes before yu go down.

"Careful" has nothing to do with it, I'm usually incredibly careful and methodical in clearing an area, GRAW seems to just place huge amounts of enemies in an area in a contrived way to make the game more difficult. I just prefer my games to be more realistic and GRAW falls flat on it's face in this area, such a shame for such a good looking and well presented game. It just doesn't suit my playing style.

oh and my ai teamates are incredulously stupid too, why oh why did the developers drop the ability (in the original) of controlling all characters.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

(unless the 4 man squad gets upped to 9 again).

So... you want 8 of the nutty AI running into your line of fire?

[Leper Messiah]

As Nutlink said, most feedback I've seen says it's to easy and there is not enough enemies. But there are different kinds of players, sure. The difficulty setting won't give you less enemies but it should make them less accurate with weapons and have a shorter detection distance.

As for cheating. Well... Games aren't made to be cheated through. But then again there has been the same major feedback here that the anti-cheat isn't good enough.

"As for cheating. Well... Games aren't made to be cheated" Games are also supposed to be "fun", that is the raison d'etre of games, games should have a multitude of options to ensure that the game is as fun as possible for as many people as possible.

[[CIA]Shadow]

"Careful" has nothing to do with it, I'm usually incredibly careful and methodical in clearing an area, GRAW seems to just place huge amounts of enemies in an area in a contrived way to make the game more difficult...It just doesn't suit my playing style.

What I always do in heavily concentrated enemy areas is individually position the team of 3 outward and always in front of me, taking cover in a triangle formation where they can cover each other and better mow the enemy down one by one. Any enemies that come into my own arc of fire also get quickly wasted from a safe distance, especially if they are about to kill a teammate. (Protecting your weakest teammate(s) is key to easily surviving the map, especially early on.)

Now, of course the realism in GRAW stops when you lose a Ghost member in one map, only to have them be ressurrected in the next map, yet we are talking about firefights here, so I digress. When all the shooting stops in an area, move your team into different positions to seek out and destroy that lone enemy or sniper that might still hiding and waiting for *you* to enter his killzone. When I hear he is dead, I know its at least clear to approach the nearest teammate, regroup, and carefully move on from there. Keep doing this in every firefight and you stand more of a chance at surviving the map, and the game.

Therefore the key to the whole game is always overwhelming the enemy forces before they have a chance at destroying you and your team, and that's what I believe Grin was going for ... to *effectively* use a mere 3-man special forces team, who are always outnumbered, yet have every advantage with advanced weaponry, tactics, and ability to see (and zoom in on) the battlefield from above at any given moment, etc.

Because of the intense survival element in GRAW is exactly why I like it, as opposed to other tac-shooter games where you can almost always run into any area blindly, have much less concern for your life, use little or no cover and more confidently waste enemies too easily. To me, those kind of games collect dust on my shelf, there is no challenge in them whatsoever. Ironically, those are the same games that idiots always claim to have their "1337 skillzzz" in.

I completed the vanilla game on the hardest setting then started looking into mods to see what was there and liked GRAW even more ever since, so before you give up on single player entirely, you may want to try a good combination of mods and .xml tweaks to enhance your gameplay.

Edited March 2, 2007 by [CIA]Shadow

[Leper Messiah]

Shadow' date='Feb 27 2007, 04:09 PM' post='452434']

"Careful" has nothing to do with it, I'm usually incredibly careful and methodical in clearing an area, GRAW seems to just place huge amounts of enemies in an area in a contrived way to make the game more difficult...It just doesn't suit my playing style.

What I always do in heavily concentrated enemy areas is individually position the team of 3 outward and always in front of me, taking cover in a triangle formation where they can cover each other and better mow the enemy down one by one. Any enemies that come into my own arc of fire also get quickly wasted from a safe distance, especially if they are about to kill a teammate. (Protecting your weakest teammate(s) is key to easily surviving the map, especially early on.)

Now, of course the realism in GRAW stops when you lose a Ghost member in one map, only to have them be ressurrected in the next map, yet we are talking about firefights here, so I digress. When all the shooting stops in an area, move your team into different positions to seek out and destroy that lone enemy or sniper that might still hiding and waiting for *you* to enter his killzone. When I hear he is dead, I know its at least clear to approach the nearest teammate, regroup, and carefully move on from there. Keep doing this in every firefight and you stand more of a chance at surviving the map, and the game.

Therefore the key to the whole game is always overwhelming the enemy forces before they have a chance at destroying you and your team, and that's what I believe Grin was going for ... to *effectively* use a mere 3-man special forces team, who are always outnumbered, yet have every advantage with advanced weaponry, tactics, and ability to see (and zoom in on) the battlefield from above at any given moment, etc.

Because of the intense survival element in GRAW is exactly why I like it, as opposed to other tac-shooter games where you can almost always run into any area blindly, have much less concern for your life, use little or no cover and more confidently waste enemies too easily. To me, those kind of games collect dust on my shelf, there is no challenge in them whatsoever. Ironically, those are the same games that idiots always claim to have their "1337 skillzzz" in.

I completed the vanilla game on the hardest setting then started looking into mods to see what was there and liked GRAW even more ever since, so before you give up on single player entirely, you may want to try a good combination of mods and .xml tweaks to enhance your gameplay. Look at the photos I've taken of what a good mod experience with GRAW is like. The first thing you'll notice is Mitchell is now rendered in third person, which adds some pretty interesting visuals and gameplay in of itself.

What you say is what I do, I've been playing and loving Tactical shooters since the early days of Rainbow Six and SWAT3 etc. GRAW is definitely an excellent game, but I still don't like the contrived "difficulty" of the levels, coupled with the lack of a quick save means that I'm often unable to get to a save point before real life gets involved. Although because GRAW is so good in other areas I am still getting enjoyment out of it. Ironically I've been replaying Ghost Recon and easily made my way up to mission 10 (i think), the one where I have to ensure 3 tanks survive....it's urban warfare and has a contrived difficulty in that the Allied Tanks just go off on their own, so I have to hurry to each "ambush" location to clear out the enemy.....I can't do it, becuase I'm made to hurry, and that level reminds me of GRAW!! An outnumbered Elite team of Special Forces would rely on Stealth, and when the game forces that team to go "rambo", then it all goes wrong for me. Ho hum, still worth a tenner but could have been so much better....oh and what the hell is the close FOV all about!! Peripheral vision (even with a helmet on) and situational awareness is vital in Urban warfare, the FOV in GRAW is akin to "tunnel vision" and promotes "target fixation", which is tantamount to suicide in Urban Warfare!

Edited March 1, 2007 by Leper Messiah

[krise madsen]

I've heard quite a few complain that the game is too difficult, even on the easy setting, and I just don't agree.

Though I play games a lot, I'm actually pretty poor at it. I use cheat codes (SP only, obviously), a lot, in order to finish most shooters.

I didn't have any problems finishing GRAW. Played a couple of hours each day and beat in about a week.

I kinda figured thsoe having problems weren't accustomed to having to sneak-and-peek at every corner, but that's obviusly not the issue here.

Are you sure you aren't confusing "difficult" with "frustrating"? I found the sparse checkpoints exeptionally frustrating, to the point that I almost gave up playing on several occasions.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Curlydave]

You're probably taking it too quickly. There is no need to rush anything in GRAW - take things slowly, one enemy at a time. Take cover until you know you have a shot, and don't send your teammates into situations where they don't have cover. I'm not saying that GRAW isn't difficult, because it is, but that's what makes it so fun for me. I'm glad they didn't add quicksaves or I'd be cheating through most of it with them like I do for most games.

Another big point: There are usually multiple ways to solve problems in GRAW, and some are better than others. You could try directly assaulting some positions all day and never get to the next checkpoint, or you could experiment trying different strategies, and find one that makes it easy as cake.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Curlydave

[Apach]

True, true.

[Leper Messiah]

Curlydave..no I wasn't taking it too fast, in fact the opposite. It was that tank in mission 2 that was getting to me, that and the ambush when you find the VIPs Limo. So it was "set pieces" that moved the pace, not me...and that was the crux of my moan. Thankfully I stuck with it and with advice I gleaned from this site I completed that mission and since then I have to agree that the game isn't that difficult at all.

I guess I'm just lamenting that it's a game that has to be "learnt", to know when and where the enemy are coming from in those set pieces and preparing your squad to cover the routes. Coming from Raven Shield, Swat 3 and 4 I'd got used to the random placement of enemies (which can make even an easy level hard!). Shame GRIN didn't adopt a similar method. I'm thinking the console version spread it's insiduous influence on the PC version!

So all in all I'm now thoroughly happy with the game, excellent visuals (albeit with an FOV too close for my liking), excellent atmosphere, and solid if uninspiring at times action.

[[CIA]Shadow]

Coming from Raven Shield, Swat 3 and 4 I'd got used to the random placement of enemies (which can make even an easy level hard!). Shame GRIN didn't adopt a similar method. I'm thinking the console version spread it's insiduous influence on the PC version!

Yeah, I also wish GRAW enemy AI was less scripted and utilized random waves of enemy spawn like other games. That would have made it so much more (re)playable, yet I still add some newness to the game by experimenting with AI and other tweaks here and there for good custom gameplay nonetheless. Although, something tells me if there were random waves of enemy spawning from everywhere in the map, all coming towards you, even more people would complain that the game was too "hard."

[Leper Messiah]

you have a point there, also the tactical map makes randomness less of an obstacle.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

you have a point there, also the tactical map makes randomness less of an obstacle.

But the tactical map makes randomness harder for the developer. You have to hide where the enemy spawns so it can't be seen at any time on the tactical map. That combined with not being able to enter houses pose a real problem if you want to use randomness on AAA level today. Also, there are more possible paths that can cause problems, so randomness requires more QA time.

Randomness is fun, but it often comes at a price.

[chiles4]

but I still don't like the contrived "difficulty" of the levels

Well if you think about, the whole concept of what we're doing in these games is a bit contrived. But game devs are pretty much obliged to pit you and a few AI or you and a couple of buddies against many AI tangoes. That's just the way it has to be to make a playable game.

Both [GR] and GRAW can be very difficult but in their own unique ways. In [GR], if you make a mistake, you're pretty much history given the low chance of the enemy missing at short or medium range. The god-like reflexes and accuracy of the enemy AI in [GR] was a bit contrived but you adapt to it. Even with that contrived difficulty and the somewhat goofy enemy AI, [GR] is probably the most classic combat game ever made.

With GRAW, it feels much more like up your up against people. And if you make a mistake you can often get past it albeit with a sucking chest wound. The difficulty in GRAW is not because the enemy AI have lightspeed reflexes and stunning accuracy. They surely do not. But it's probably a combination of the tactical situation you're presented with and the greatly improved "intelligence" of the enemy tangoes.

SP in GRAW can be extremely difficult. Co-op MP is nowhere near as hard and is very satisfying. I'm playing GRAW co-op with a friend who's new to GRAW but has played [GR] for years. Every time we play GRAW co-op he gets his ass shot off...continually. It's not the reflexes or the accuracy of GRAW's enemy AI, it's the fact that you're up against "better" opponents.

Given how different GRAW is from [GR], I just find it hard to say which one is harder than the other. I just find myself far more dedicated to using better tactics in GRAW than I do in GR.

The best way I can put it is that in [GR], I had to have my reflexes sharp, in GRAW I had to have my mind sharp.

[Cpl Ledanek]

but I still don't like the contrived "difficulty" of the levels

Well if you think about, the whole concept of what we're doing in these games is a bit contrived. But game devs are pretty much obliged to pit you and a few AI or you and a couple of buddies against many AI tangoes. That's just the way it has to be to make a playable game.

Both [GR] and GRAW can be very difficult but in their own unique ways. In [GR], if you make a mistake, you're pretty much history given the low chance of the enemy missing at short or medium range. The god-like reflexes and accuracy of the enemy AI in [GR] was a bit contrived but you adapt to it. Even with that contrived difficulty and the somewhat goofy enemy AI, [GR] is probably the most classic combat game ever made.

With GRAW, it feels much more like up your up against people. And if you make a mistake you can often get past it albeit with a sucking chest wound. The difficulty in GRAW is not because the enemy AI have lightspeed reflexes and stunning accuracy. They surely do not. But it's probably a combination of the tactical situation you're presented with and the greatly improved "intelligence" of the enemy tangoes.

SP in GRAW can be extremely difficult. Co-op MP is nowhere near as hard and is very satisfying. I'm playing GRAW co-op with a friend who's new to GRAW but has played [GR] for years. Every time we play GRAW co-op he gets his ass shot off...continually. It's not the reflexes or the accuracy of GRAW's enemy AI, it's the fact that you're up against "better" opponents.

Given how different GRAW is from [GR], I just find it hard to say which one is harder than the other. I just find myself far more dedicated to using better tactics in GRAW than I do in GR.

The best way I can put it is that in [GR], I had to have my reflexes sharp, in GRAW I had to have my mind sharp.

I totally agree on the last sentence. Sorry don't know how to edit quotes

[Hawseman]

Well written, chiles4....totally agree.