What makes a shooter tactical?

[Hatchetforce]

The game will tell you.

On the note of what we discussed earlier, that is exactly why I defend such concepts as removing jumping so players know not to bunny hop. Save the pursuit of perfect realism (which I feel is impossible) there's no need to send players mixed messages.

Then do you think OFP did this poorly too? OFP allowed you to run with your gun shouldered, but of course the sight picture was all over the screen so you could barely see anything. Also, you could fire the gun while in a full sprint, but of course the rounds would be all over the map.

To me this was one of the things that I liked about OFP. It simply put you into a situation and let you do pretty much whatever you wanted. Want to try running people over with a jeep? Well, go for it, but unlike Halo someone will eventually tag you with a round, and end your joy ride. OFP had its issues too, but in my opinion it was by far a better game in virtually ever way than GR could ever be. Well, except for graphics.

Good to see you are back HF, and with a new gig too it seems.

Thanks. But that thing about HALO. Have you ever run HALO or HALO2? You will get sniped out of a vehicle. Usually though a grenade winds up flipping the Warthog and ruining the joyride.

OFP is a really good example of a great attempt to allow the evolving situation rather than the devs to limit what a player could and should do in game. It allowed TTPs to control things such as bunnyhopping. Play VBS online in Co-op or adversarial and you can count on one hand the number of jumps someone does before that wind up in the dirt.

The other thing was security protocols have been changed or else Rocky did something and I can now see the forum at the Base. It used to be blocked and I could never figure that out.

[BS PALADIN]

What makes a shooter tactical is the level of realism of the gameworld. The more realistic the physics, the locations, the player movements and weapons then the more tactical the game will become. A game should allow the player to formulate his own tactics to see if they work for a certain situation. So that you alternate your tactics according to the weapon loadouts of your team, their abilities, the terrain and of course the preceived tactics of the enemy. Thats what a true tactical shooter should be.

[FA sear]

Thanks. But that thing about HALO. Have you ever run HALO or HALO2? You will get sniped out of a vehicle. Usually though a grenade winds up flipping the Warthog and ruining the joyride.

OFP is a really good example of a great attempt to allow the evolving situation rather than the devs to limit what a player could and should do in game. It allowed TTPs to control things such as bunnyhopping. Play VBS online in Co-op or adversarial and you can count on one hand the number of jumps someone does before that wind up in the dirt.

The other thing was security protocols have been changed or else Rocky did something and I can now see the forum at the Base. It used to be blocked and I could never figure that out.

True, very true about Halo MP, but you could run the AI over in campaign mode which was something OFP (thanks to BIS) would not even let you do in SP mode.

Bunny hopping should be allowed as you have stated, and this type of thing is what I found disappointing about GR. Heck, in GR I often found it lame that you could not even go close enough to the edge of a cliff to properly get a view to snipe people below. I would even like the ability to fall off a cliff if I get to close to the edge. Another feature that OFP had that I liked.

Good to see that whatever security measures there were in place now let you log in here. I changed jobs, so all the filters at work that I used to have to deal with are no longer there. I can now see where people are from etc... I never knew so many people here on the forums were from the UK. The only bad thing for me is that I'm on the road a lot now (locally), so I'm not on the forum as much.

[Sup]

Then do you think OFP did this poorly too? OFP allowed you to run with your gun shouldered, but of course the sight picture was all over the screen so you could barely see anything. Also, you could fire the gun while in a full sprint, but of course the rounds would be all over the map.

The sight accomplished what I'm talking about. The lack of the 'pip' reticule and the absurd way your main ret jumped around the screen made it pretty obvious it wasn't a time to be shooting.

I don't really see there as being an easy and clear way to let players know jumping is a bad idea too. A simple (but fast) climbing mechanism seems a lot more sensible. Maybe even a context sensitive jump, when there's actually someone to hop over.

[Raw Kryptonite]

To me, the problem isn't bunny hopping, it's the lack of physical exhaustion and some kind of endurance limitation. Sure, go ahead and jump all over the place if you want to, but after a few jumps with full gear he needs to be so exhausted he can't see straight, much less shoot. Weight and the action you're doing need to have an affect on the soldier.

Another AA plug, but in there you could run so far just fine according to your conditioning level, but then you started getting tired, winded and your heart rate too high. You'd hear your heart pounding after a while. It GREATLY affected your aim, vision and eventually you could even have a heart attack and DROP from the exertion. Similarly, if you were shot and even attended to by a medic your endurance would be greatly lowered. Running after getting shot could kill you.

Games need more attention to that kind of detail.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Raw Kryptonite

[FA sear]

I say to each their own. The more realism the better in my opinion (for certain games). The fact is that there are an infinite number of semi real and all out fantasy shooters, but sims are barely a handful. Let the realism junkies have at least couple games that they can go to.

I am all for a game that gives the player freedom and they need to learn or figure out what to do and what not to do. If a player cannot figure out that jumping in the middle of a firefight is not a good idea, then they need to go run something else. That would be akin to constantly wanting a "go prone" feature in Halo. Halo is just that, a run and gun blow them all up fantasy game. It is fun in its own way, but it is not OFP.

Let the realism junkies have what they want, and if you disagree then so be it. Not everyone wants the same thing in a game, and what you think works does not necessarily appeal to everyone. How should a player know that jumping in the middle of a firefight is a bad idea? If realism is what they seek, then they should simply know this beforehand. Also, the manual can contain some simple basic principles like running while shooting reduces accuracy, single shots at distance are far preferable to full auto, shooting prone is much more accurate than shooting standing, etc...

Basic principles are already outlined in the game manual, so I don't see why they could not just do this the way they do it now.

[Sgt. Atoa]

To me, the problem isn't bunny hopping, it's the lack of physical exhaustion and some kind of endurance limitation. Sure, go ahead and jump all over the place if you want to, but after a few jumps with full gear he needs to be so exhausted he can't see straight, much less shoot. Weight and the action you're doing need to have an affect on the soldier.

Another AA plug, but in there you could run so far just fine according to your conditioning level, but then you started getting tired, winded and your heart rate too high. You'd hear your heart pounding after a while. It GREATLY affected your aim, vision and eventually you could even have a heart attack and DROP from the exertion. Similarly, if you were shot and even attended to by a medic your endurance would be greatly lowered. Running after getting shot could kill you.

Games need more attention to that kind of detail.

You know, what you said above was implemented in Ghost Recon Jungle Storm for the PS2

which uses the same engine as [GR] for PC... I dont know why they never implemented that

to the PC version....... So running around is a no no in GR:JS

Why we never got that on the PC version? I guess because GR:JS was released in 2004 and 2 full years had passed since GR:IT pack.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Sgt. Atoa

[WhiteKnight77]

Good to see that whatever security measures there were in place now let you log in here. I changed jobs, so all the filters at work that I used to have to deal with are no longer there. I can now see where people are from etc... I never knew so many people here on the forums were from the UK. The only bad thing for me is that I'm on the road a lot now (locally), so I'm not on the forum as much.

This website is based in the UK as the owner lives in Scotland.

[Trident-za]

I must say I'm extremely keen on seeing this game that John and HF are talking about. And... what a pleasure to read HF's posts - extremely well thought out and based on real-world experience.