GRAW 2 COOP BASED MISSION OBJECTIVES ?

[Colin]

In the past years teams and clans have been created by games like GR1.

With the ability to play coop based missions with a nine man team or more.

Example:

M02 Eager Smoke

The Farm in GR1.

Stealth, recon, mixed with Fire Fight, many peoples favourite.

This game type brought together many teams and had a knock on effect for tournaments across the world being played by many different teams with different nationalities.

Hundreds of teams and servers were created, thousands of players for 6 years and more played and made a unique impact on internet gaming.

This game type came to an end with the release of GRAW 1.

To do mission based objectives with no more than four players basically ripped the community apart, GR1`s general decline did however add to this as well.

Many Teams and clans split and went their separate ways; the community became in effect fragmented.

Most of us can understand the need for games to be better especially the AI on both sides, but with the massive improvement in this area already seen and much appreciated, it has left a part of the game completely neglected.

You may say this has to be a balancing act, what can be in a game and what cant, but the real point is a game that restricts the amount of players, being sold to a community that has been playing with a minimum of nine players, and more for years is really an opportunity lost.

Modders have worked very hard to achieve this in GRAW 1 with limited results and as I understand a steep learning curve, the ability to create Mission based objectives with more than four players needs to exist within the new game.

From my point of view COOP BASED MISSION OBJECTIVES need to be at the top of the list for GRAW2 otherwise the community fragmentation will go unaltered.

This to me was the only large element missing in GRAW 1;

I hope it will be rectified in GRAW 2.

Posts of this nature have been numerous over the past year and the reason is obvious, this element which is important to hundreds of us is missing.

[Hammer]

I have to agrea with Colin, That mission based objectives in the MP coop are the one real big thinng missing from GRAW. Im not to concered much with the limit on the number of players in SP as GR had a limit of 6, But in multi player you had the ability to play the same missions with upto 9 men. This combined with the multipule objectives and the ability to choose the type of game play eg:- Recon or Assault for the mission was the big attraction to me. I too would like to see these type of opptions in GRAW2 and the ability to easily creat new missions with multiple objectives on all maps for MP coop.

[Tinker]

In the past years teams and clans have been created by games like GR1.

With the ability to play coop based missions with a nine man team or more.

Example:

M02 Eager Smoke

The Farm in GR1.

Stealth, recon, mixed with Fire Fight, many peoples favourite.

This game type brought together many teams and had a knock on effect for tournaments across the world being played by many different teams with different nationalities.

Hundreds of teams and servers were created, thousands of players for 6 years and more played and made a unique impact on internet gaming.

This game type came to an end with the release of GRAW 1.

To do mission based objectives with no more than four players basically ripped the community apart, GR1`s general decline did however add to this as well.

Many Teams and clans split and went their separate ways; the community became in effect fragmented.

Most of us can understand the need for games to be better especially the AI on both sides, but with the massive improvement in this area already seen and much appreciated, it has left a part of the game completely neglected.

You may say this has to be a balancing act, what can be in a game and what cant, but the real point is a game that restricts the amount of players, being sold to a community that has been playing with a minimum of nine players, and more for years is really an opportunity lost.

Modders have worked very hard to achieve this in GRAW 1 with limited results and as I understand a steep learning curve, the ability to create Mission based objectives with more than four players needs to exist within the new game.

From my point of view COOP BASED MISSION OBJECTIVES need to be at the top of the list for GRAW2 otherwise the community fragmentation will go unaltered.

This to me was the only large element missing in GRAW 1;

I hope it will be rectified in GRAW 2.

Posts of this nature have been numerous over the past year and the reason is obvious, this element which is important to hundreds of us is missing.

Well put. I am sure this statement will be agreed with by many. I DO like GRAW, still grab a few games when i can, however, the above post covers it all for me too. There are many new maps and missions now, but with no offense, they are just fancy firefights.

How is it some nights there are more GR1 Servers to find than GRAW? Because it is more FUN and challenging to play!

Penny dropped

Tinker

[rossiski]

Colin, your sub-question was, "Will it happen?"

I hope so, but IMO, the publisher has migrated their stance from the game type many of us came to love. This attitude is unfortunately pushed onto the developer.

The run-n-gunners have won out for the time being because it's an easier and cost-efficient game type to create. Complicated AI, difficult objectives to accomplish, the feeling of brotherhood you get when you insert with a bunch of your friends...this is too much for publishers to absorb (for now, at least).

Who knows? Maybe in a couple years the market will shift back to the game type we love.

EDIT: Other thoughts...

Just yesterday, 5 separate teams inserted in the first mission of our Community Coop Tournament sponsored by AS, 9MS, and +SD. The busiest day so far. http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png' alt=':)'> It was a difficult mission, but I know that everyone had a good time. The fact we're still doing this after 5 years is a testament that the game type still holds merit and there is a target market for it. I'm glad to see that some developers are recognizing our needs.

[calius]

Fixing what wasnt broken might be it.

Maybe now the overhaul of the game is set via GRAW 1 they can focus a lot more on this area. Apart from my rig deciding for me not to get GRAW or 2, this area was a box left without a tick to purchase it even at crappy FPS.

Nail on the head with this thread.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

From my point of view COOP BASED MISSION OBJECTIVES need to be at the top of the list for GRAW2 otherwise the community fragmentation will go unaltered.

This can be done in GRAW without much work. But you have to build the missions as real missions (Coop), not firefight or recon ([GR] Coop) ones. And as such you have to use override to be able to play them. But still you can do this, it's not that hard and it doesn't create large files.

Bonus: By building them as such you also open up for SP players to use them as in mission Coop you are allowed to use AI team members if the server sets it so.

All that is needed is to allow for such mission to be used as bundles instead of override, which would be done by having that export option and coop mission lists that are not locked, and it would be fully implemented.

Adding objectives to [GR] coop is a waist of time. It should be used for firefight and recon only. Which it would if the above export option was available.

As for the bigger player teams, the reason that is a problem has already been discussed in other topics. I can see the possibility to add a few more, like 6 players, without to much performance issues. But more then that would lead to a reduction in enemies to allow for players, which beats the purpose of the game in my thinking.

[Buehgler_AS]

Spot on Colin -- as usual. I know that we had a blast putting together the current Community COOP tourney just because we could build missions that had all of these features.

@Wolfsong, please read all of Colin's post again. Then spend a few hours playing some GR1 tourney missions with 5-8 teamates. Then finally ask yourself how many GRAW missions are available that afford a similar level of teamwork and tension. I know that I have not found any.

I very much hope that Grin has done the same exercise and that they will rectify this problem as a first priority with GRAW2.

Finally, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we not turn this into a GR vs GRAW "debate". They really do not help anyone.

[rossiski]

As for the bigger player teams, the reason that is a problem has already been discussed in other topics. I can see the possibility to add a few more, like 6 players, without to much performance issues. But more then that would lead to a reduction in enemies to allow for players, which beats the purpose of the game in my thinking.

Hmmm...I guess I didn't realize the reason for limiting the number of mission-coop players was because of possible performance hits. I thought it was because of developer time contstraints.

If that's the case, is the Diesel engine from GRAW and GRAW2 ever going to provide the gametype we've been missing? Until that question is answered, we're just speculating from here on out.

Someone, please correct me. Please.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

@Wolfsong, please read all of Colin's post again. Then spend a few hours playing some GR1 tourney missions with 5-8 teamates. Then finally ask yourself how many GRAW missions are available that afford a similar level of teamwork and tension. I know that I have not found any.

I very much hope that Grin has done the same exercise and that they will rectify this problem as a first priority with GRAW2.

Missing objective scripting for MP isn't the reason for it though, which is the part of Colin's post that I answered. I still haven't seen any community missions made at all, so there is nothing to compare against even though I've told the community how to do it over 2 months ago... So to solve that problem all that would be needed is what I stated. Simply as what you have to do is just the same as the exporter do but manually as an override instead of a bundle due to the SP/Coop mission list being locked and as such not being an export option from the editor.

As for your comments. Fixing tension is all up to the mission scripter. And again, the community hasn't provided any missions. Teamwork can be done at the same level even by 2 people as by 5-8. It's still how you plan and execute that matters for it. Which I can say as a former military man isn't that different. You only have to take into acount the current resources of the team.

[Colin]

The coop tourney that is being run at the moment in gr1, for 17 teams.

Am to understand that this is also possible in GRAW1 ??.

This has not been done as far as I am aware, there must be good reason for it.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

The coop tourney that is being run at the moment in gr1, for 17 teams.

Am to understand that this is also possible in GRAW1 ??.

This has not been done as far as I am aware, there must be good reason for it.

I don't know what you need in the way to run such a tournament, but you can make full Coop missions with objectives and all the scripting functions in the game. But not as [GR] and not as bundles.

[Nutlink]

That's the problem Wolfsong, if we cannot use it for [GR] Coop then that limits it to 4 players (not a problem for me, I prefer smaller groups). The other problem is the bundles. Bundles are easier to use and remove. Just look at the "how to install a custom map" vs "how to install a mod" threads there are.

If GRAW1 supported full objectives in [GR] Coop maps I would be ecstatic. If GRAW2 will support full objectives with 6+ players I'll be glad my time mapping with GRAW didn't go to waste.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

If GRAW1 supported full objectives in [GR] Coop maps I would be ecstatic.

I actually wouldn't as [GR] has other limitations, like no option to use AI so the SP players can't use the missions. If it's a mission with objectives I think it should be made so it can be played in Coop, not [GR] Coop, so all players can use it.

And mods is just as easy to install as bundles, besides that you can't download them automatically. Just unpack in local directory and change which folder to use in context.xml. Done in 5 seconds. The mods that cause problem are those not made by the creator to be easy to use. The fact that you have to quit the game to switch mods isn't a problem when it comes to a tournament as you'll only play one mission at a time anyhow. But as said earlier, bundle support for SP/Coop would be much better.

[Peace]

If GRAW1 supported full objectives in [GR] Coop maps I would be ecstatic.

I actually wouldn't as [GR] has other limitations, like no option to use AI so the SP players can't use the missions. If it's a mission with objectives I think it should be made so it can be played in Coop, not [GR] Coop, so all players can use it.

And mods is just as easy to install as bundles, besides that you can't download them automatically. Just unpack in local directory and change which folder to use in context.xml. Done in 5 seconds. The mods that cause problem are those not made by the creator to be easy to use. The fact that you have to quit the game to switch mods isn't a problem when it comes to a tournament as you'll only play one mission at a time anyhow. But as said earlier, bundle support for SP/Coop would be much better.

Do you look for a job at GRIN?

[ZJJ]

If GRAW1 supported full objectives in [GR] Coop maps I would be ecstatic.

I actually wouldn't as [GR] has other limitations, like no option to use AI so the SP players can't use the missions. If it's a mission with objectives I think it should be made so it can be played in Coop, not [GR] Coop, so all players can use it.

And mods is just as easy to install as bundles, besides that you can't download them automatically. Just unpack in local directory and change which folder to use in context.xml. Done in 5 seconds. The mods that cause problem are those not made by the creator to be easy to use. The fact that you have to quit the game to switch mods isn't a problem when it comes to a tournament as you'll only play one mission at a time anyhow. But as said earlier, bundle support for SP/Coop would be much better.

Do you look for a job at GRIN?

I asked him the same thing a few months ago!

[Colin]

The real point being missed is, it is not possible to do as with our normal community tournaments.

Ammount of players/mission objectives.

We dont want to see team sizes drop, we dont want 4 man restrictions when entering tourneys, games are supposed to progress not regress.

Lets say you want to do a mission there are 8 guys on the server and in TS it cant be done, getting to the extraction zone is not a bleeding objective fgs.

The more people that play the game as a large team, it will provide more money to the developer.

More people more sales simple maths.

People have been buying GR1 for 6 years and its because of the game play and what can be done with it not the way it looks.

All I am saying if GRAW 2 has the capabillity of you and 8 other members being able to do a coop mission as part of a tournament or on a local server it would doulbe the sales figures and make a lot of us real happy.

And or Modders be able to do the same thing out of the box with no steep learning curve. Either which.

Its not a lot to ask, we have had this for over 6 years, why bring down the achievment bar it should be raised on all aspects of the game, NOT LOWERED.

[Peace]

games are supposed to progress not regress.

Wow, a soon to be famous quote by Colin!

I think that reflects a lot of the frustration with GRAW for coop players (with their frustrations) as well as t vs t players (with theirs)

There has been too much regression of vital gameparts. Some forum members and devs argue that "this and that" could not be done due to design issues and GRIN did the best they could. For example: too much space required (replays, number of maps). Too much animations required (limp)...

I say (but I'm only a gamer not a game developer) that this is a fundamental design flaw and should have been thought of at the drawing board.

Example:

-Maps should be able to play in all gamemodes! They should be designed so that it is a piece of cake to add some spawn zones, change weather effects etc.

-And to release the game with no whatsoever effect when being hit by a bullet is just... (and still, after patching, is too subtle to matter)

-Mission objectives should be able to do in any order etc etc

To me, the devs seem to put to much efforts into fancy stuff as AGEIA Physics, HDR lighting, shaders and graphics in general.

Sorry for deviating from the topic slightly, now back on track:

I truly hope the coopers, modders can have some improved tools and abilities in GRAW 2 because they deserve it, helping keeping the [GR] community alive

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

The real point being missed is, it is not possible to do as with our normal community tournaments.

Ammount of players/mission objectives.

Mission objective are unlimited even in GRAW, so I wouldn't think that would change.

On the number of players, the reason for that has also been explained. Sure in urban combat it's easier to set up a million spawn points so that only a small number of enemy AI is on the map at one time, but if you want open spaces and sniper distance that is much more out of the question. If you want the system requirements to stay down it won't change either. But if you want it be boosted to Core 2 Extreme and GeForce 8800GTX SLI I think you can have quite a few players at the same time and still be able to have a tasty bunch of enemies spawned into each area.

And or Modders be able to do the same thing out of the box with no steep learning curve. Either which.

They won't if they haven't been following the evolution of graphics and game complicity for the last 5 years. The reason GR was easy to mod is simply because it really easy to create stuff for it. Also because the engine was fairly simple and didn't require to much special animations and such for weapons and vehicles, it wasn't hard to rigg for it. What the community has to understand is games today are totally different beasts. You have to have the skills developer around the world had not longer then a year ago if your gonna have an easy shot at modding stuff into a modern game without it showing what isn't original work. Scripting, or course, requires less then modeling and texturing when it comes to artistic skills but is heavier on logics and programming. I hope people understand what has happened in gaming developing during the last couple of years isn't just the same thing as before with more detail.

[Colin]

I think you miss my point the game may look better but the play is going downhill, once you restrict player participation you destroy a gaming community and its as simple as that.

Playing with friends is what made GR1 a great game.

for what ever reason you decide to reduce the abillity for more than a set number of palyers to be able to participte in a mission, you make by default the community smaller and that has what has happened with GRAW1.

It fragmented the community and that is a fact purly because of the above fact.

It is a good game if you want to play in small teams on missions, most of us weree weaned on somthing bigger and better.

This to me is a game going back wards not forwards.

Im not interested in where gaming is going because its leaving a lot of us behind.

It is a fact this game did not fill the coop based community slot, it needs to be fixed.

If you make a game for less indeviduals as far as team work goes you are reducing your income, that is a fact.

Teams and clans promote good coop games, sell copies by just word of mouth.

I dont want to see Teams/Clans and good torunaments come to an end because Game Publishers cant see where good gaming comes from.

I want to see GRAW succeed like GR1 did I dont want it to be a six month wonder, with less options and fancy grahphics at the cost of good team game play.

[sui317]

to fall is to learn....

[Peace]

I hope people understand what has happened in gaming developing during the last couple of years isn't just the same thing as before with more detail.

This is what I understand:

The sum of effects of that is... regress,

Regress of:

- Gameplay

- Variability/freedom

- Options/customizability

- Injury model

- Server tools

PS I really hope you and devs take the critisicm seriously, and not too "defensive" (taggarna utåt [sorry Swedish expression])

As Colin stated, we are many that truly hope for a revival of the community with GRAW 2, we'd like to support the devs as best as we can what we believe is right for GRAW

[sui317]

we fell with GR once when the limp was lost in IT

(ubi seems to want this out..... as with other injury effects)

game play might have suffered because of time tables, maybe making it up with graw 2 (we have to wait and see)

variaty, who knows why and what, it did not reach [GR] levels they are still at work so cross fingers on part 2

options,

guess that is something which is learned by doing wrong or right, they missed some options, hopefully they have green light or the will to give us more this time

server tools and as i read in a post of ROCCOAFZ in graw thread,

can use some work, but again people have to learn and they missed some things,

a new dev team a new contract, limited freedom, ubi.

we just have to see if graw2 will deliver , but then again, some set the bar way up (not aimed at any one person just a gross generalisation)

and will never be satisfied,

i have learned that when people are positive, and talk positive the negatives are less negative, in the case of graw the glass is half full, or half empty,

but don't stop posting negatives, cause that is what they learn from.

just hope that grin has got a bigger budget and or freedom to work this time round as they seem/are willing to listen and apply suggestions from the forums

[rossiski]

I think you miss my point the game may look better but the play is going downhill, once you restrict player participation you destroy a gaming community and its as simple as that.

This may be better phrased that a "portion" of the overall gaming community was wounded, i.e. the mission-based coop lovers. The TvT (the other part of the overall community) received a wonderful game that supplied the majority of their needs.

Maybe it's too much to ask for one game to have it all.

Playing with friends is what made GR1 a great game.

I've said this before...this is the reason why I play online. Friends.

[Peace]

The TvT (the other part of the overall community) received a wonderful game that supplied the majority of their needs.

Maybe it's too much to ask for one game to have it all.

You must be kidding me rossiski, right?

Look at the online # GRAW TvsT servers, the # TvsT players, he # of TvsT GRAW clans, the # of TvsT GRAW ladders...

That pretty much sums it up, and no further explanation needed. Well, yea I can add that from my original TvsT [GR] community in Europe there is about 5% playing GRAW, 25 % returned or sticking with [GR], the rest have moved on to other games... Not exactly what we expected when GRAW was released.

[Tinker]

Wolfsong:

They won't if they haven't been following the evolution of graphics and game complicity for the last 5 years. The reason GR was easy to mod is simply because it really easy to create stuff for it. Also because the engine was fairly simple and didn't require to much special animations and such for weapons and vehicles, it wasn't hard to rigg for it. What the community has to understand is games today are totally different beasts. You have to have the skills developer around the world had not longer then a year ago if your gonna have an easy shot at modding stuff into a modern game without it showing what isn't original work. Scripting, or course, requires less then modeling and texturing when it comes to artistic skills but is heavier on logics and programming. I hope people understand what has happened in gaming developing during the last couple of years isn't just the same thing as before with more detail.

I can agree with that, but, better tools and documentation would help. GR or GRAW, Needs an update, but your scripting tutorials, which are fantastic, cannot help the Co-Op people. There needs to be more help here, lot`s more extra options.

Like we will ever get a mission editor again!

XML is not that difficult from my angle. Have no prior knowledge, but have advanced with tutorials. However, it can take me upto 10 Mins on a CTD, just to even reset, alter an issue, reload the game! You know this takes hours of your time, making a mission. I have an uncomplete mission 05 here, i keep going back in, but it`s just not even FUN to do.

Thing is, even learning it, which i would like to be confident with, we still just so limited for a 9 Man Squad Insertion on a pretty tasty mission?

Tinker