Is it an elitist thing?

[Pritzl]

[rant on]

let's be frank here. I am fully aware that the real thing is very, very hard. I'm also happy to see numerous fun factors in ArmA, from bullet drop to heavy breathing and dispersion.

BUT... How in the world is this supposed to be a "game" if even on the easiest difficulty levels you can't get past anyone?

• It's impossible to spot enemies at any distance beyond 200m without zooming in. Even then, it's a stretch in spite of max LOD settings. I've resorted to toting the sniper rifle just to be able to see the enemy with its scope.
  
• When you do spot the bandits, weapon accuracy is so poor, combat outside of 100m is mostly about luck. You can be prone, holding your breath and zoomed in though the scope, walk the pipper all over the bad guy and still miss. Even the sniper rifle is only accurate up to about 400m or so, beyond which you might as well wish them dead for all the good it'll do ya.
  
• Meanwhile, the AI seem more than happy to reach out and touch you at over 300m with bloody AK-47's! Oh don't worry, they first give you the illusion that they're missing with the first few rounds and then zero in for the kill. It always amazes me when I miss a guy, out in the open, with the sniper rifle and he turns around and shoots me, up in my perch, prone with only my gun sticking out, several times until I'm dead.
  
• The friendly AI tend to do some ridiculous things, like firing their precious RPGs at individual troopers, (two guys, 3 grenades apiece, all wasted on one rifleman, I kid you not! Oh and they still missed!) standing up and trying to retreat in the middle of a pitched firefight, never going where you send them and almost never coordinating their actions. If you thought GRAW's friendly AI was poor, wait till you get a load of these guys! What further boggles the mind is that I specifically set them to expert versus novice for the enemy.
  
• The enemy numbers are horrendous in the demo mission. I killed 20 personally and the rest of my team took out another dozen but we still got ambushed by hordes of them when we finally entered the town.
  
• Configuring the game and learning the control scheme requires a degree in computer engineering, only rocket scientists need apply.
  
• The command system is so tortuous, you need a desktop reference to use it. In the middle of a firefight? Forget it.
  

Like I said, I get it. Some people want it very real and very hard. No problem. But to intentionally put the game beyond the reach of the majority of players seems a little daft imo. The relevance to GRAW of course is that I keep seeing people clamouring for more realism... which is fine... up to a point. I'm a fan of realism myself, or thought so until I saw how far it can go. The line between realistic and fun gameplay and flat out work is a very thin one indeed. Take a look at the ArmA demo to see what the other side of that line looks like.

The real shame of course is that there are so many, many good things about ArmA that it doubles the frustration with how it turned out. e.g. enemies generally behave logically, not immediately realizing where incoming fire is coming from, raising alarms where appropriate and very aggressively pursuing a solution to the problem. They zig-zag, bound from cover to cover, take long, roundabout routes to come up your 6 and even lay in ambush waiting for you to come out. I've even witnessed one guy play dead after I shot him (saw the blood and he fell forward) only to have him shoot me in the back when I turned my attention elsewhere.

The environment is beautiful with lush vegetation, down to bloody daffodils, with dragon-flies buzzing through the reeds and seagulls wheeling above. Oh, and the interactivity. Wonderful!

And yet, all of this is wasted on what ends up being some nutter's wet-dream demonstration of just how "1337" he is unlike the rest of us. Congrats, you can guesstimate the correct number of pixels to offset your pipper for a head-shot from 500m. Whoop-de-doo!

[/rant off]

It'll probably be a blast in MP (provided you don't run into Mr. Deadeye Nutter above) but the SP game will simply be an exercise in frustration that will make GRAW's checkpoint system look like a cake-walk.

[Hockeystick]

To be honest, I'm not really an ArmA fan either.

ArmA sure is realistic and I really like that. But IMO realism is just as important as gameplay. As I said, I like realism but the gameplay in ArmA don't live up to the realism level, if you know what I mean.

Ex. The game is great when it comes to weapons, bullet drop, looks, scale etc. But the AI doesn't live up to the realism level which makes the game pretty unrealistic IMO.

As Pritzl said, the AI can be pretty stupid from time to time.

But there are no perfect games, right? And there is probably no walk in the park to create realistic AI. But that's the problem. If there is no realistic or atleast near realistic AI then the gameplay falls behind and the game gets frustrating since it's simply not fun to fight realism with fiction. Hope you get what I mean.

I guess developers gets a bit too far ahead of themself in some areas.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Hockeystick

[NoQuarter]

Not to be CPT Obvious but wouldn't this be better placed here...

http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php?showforum=113

...because if this continues the next thing you'll see are posts about flight sims in this section.

2.2

[Bota:16]

From what I have played of the demo, I can see where the game could be quite fun but as many have posted before the control scheme is autrocious. Whomever decided that had to have been high.

[PONDLIFE]

Arma just takes time to getting used to, it nearly put me off from playing as i had bought the Czech version so unable to read the manual for help, But trust it's a great feeling when you do master the controls and loads of atmosphere.

It gets my thumbs up.

[Noraf]

yes, the controls are quite astonoshing, and a lot to get used to, and, yes, the ai can be a pain in the ######, and do realy stupidd things, but then again, so can we.... i managed to get blown up up and away by an enemy ai last night, in a mp game (coop), i was working to get in for an at kill on a shilka, saw a few enemy spec ops, and opened fire on them, took the blunt down, i thought, so, i continued to move towards the big price, heard some movement near by, turn around, and saw an enemy round the corner, running away from me.... i thought, ######? , and boooom, he blew me up with a stachel he plantet right by my feets!

i've seen friendly ai storm a street infested with enemies, supportet by bmp's, quite a few of the fall, befor e the rest reacted, and one of em just stood there looking stupid, take a hit to his leg, when he set a charge, and detonated it!

and i've seen enemy ai outflanking like you wouldn't belive it ( witch, the friendly ai does just as well, if the team leader is competent...)

[Pritzl]

Actually, I'm disappointed this got posted here, in the ArmA section. I know it's related but now I sound like a whiny little git - which I probably am!

Besides, I'm sure the folks in here have either already made up their own minds about the game or are in the process of doing so and don't need me ranting about it. Now that it's here though, I'll try to give some perspective to this one-off rant.

I guess I was disappointed with ArmA given what I felt it could have been. But the real point was actually related to GRAW, GRAW2 and the future of tactical shooters in general. Realism is always welcome, but when it gets to the point that it feels like work, someone's gotten carried away.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Pritzl

[Sup]

That's just OFP's gameplay. You do get used to it, and you'll have a lot of control when you get good, but to a degree that's always how it is.

I would never suggest thinking of AA as a GR successor, but approached as an unfairly hard sim there's a lot to like about the OFP series.

[Pritzl]

That's just OFP's gameplay. You do get used to it, and you'll have a lot of control when you get good, but to a degree that's always how it is.

Never thought it would be but I'm always open to new game ideas.

I would never suggest thinking of AA as a GR successor, but approached as an unfairly hard sim there's a lot to like about the OFP series.

Yeah, that's the part I don't get. Nothing wrong with an unfairly hard sim, but how much would it have cost them to add some configuration settings that would allow us average joes to get by? e.g. IL-2 is deadly hard on the most realistic settings but you can turn on/off a lot of the realism features. In ArmA it seems even the lowest level is designed with the hardcore OFP gamer in mind. Very strange business decision.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Pritzl

[CrowmanUK]

I'm not sure if you can set Veteran or Cadet settings in the demo but you can turn on/off a lot of stuff in there, that can make a difference to gameplay, what had you got it set on?

[Pritzl]

I spent a LOT of time trying to configure the game to my taste but between the hordes of options and the difficulty figuring out what did what I can't for the life of me tell what I set it to. I do remember the AI settings though because I remember feeling rather humiliated when the crippled enemy AI still managed to make mince meat of me and my team time and time again.

[CrowmanUK]

Its a game that definitely falls into the category of "take your time", if you do see an enemy force then you need to guarantee that once you do open fire theres a good chance that none of them will be alive to shoot back, bullets hurt a lot and with the AI on higher levels you dont have much chance once they do start firing on you.

[Lightspeed]

I think you're overreacting Pritzl. You need to give it some more time of serious playing and then you'll really appreciate the difficulty level.

Do you really want to kick the AI's ass first go at the Demo? I would hope not - then the game would be too damn easy.

Once you play the Demo several dozen times you start to work out what works and what doesnt, and when you figure it out, you can beat the Demo with a team of good players over and over again.

The beauty of ArmA is that it forces you to get smart to beat the AI - they are excellent aat long range. How do you counter that accuracy? By applying standard military tactics = fire and relocate. If you don't the AI will track you down, hit you front, side and flank - brilliant tactics.

Shooting from a distance for us should be hard - if I can tag a guy at over 100 yards with my first or second bullet like GR, then its actually not that realistic at all. You have to expect to use several rounds at that range, but so the game isnt too easy, pressure is added by giving the AI better accuracy. Hate it? You should love it - it lifts your game and creates more of a challenge.

ArmA forces you to plan tactically, not just the first wave but second and third wave of attack - it forces you to expect counter attacks and to work out how to counter those. This is a brilliant MilSim, just give it a chance.

What fun would a Demo be if there were only 20 AI on it - you said you took out 20 and your friends took out over a dozen. Game would have been over long ago...boring. The fact that you, one man, successfully eliminated 20 before being eliminated is not a disgrace, its an excellent performance and in reality you would have just been given a big shiny medal for that effort. Your family would have received it unfortunately you couldnt be there...lol.

As far as you still not beating the mission - that clearly wasnt your fault, it was the inadequacy of the other guys with you who could only knock out a dozen between them.

nuff said, give the game a good go and I'm sure you'll learn to love the fact that the AI will kick your ###### if you let your guard down.

btw, Im not sure if you're used to playing with respawns but those who are will become much better players without them.

[Sup]

Never thought it would be but I'm always open to new game ideas.

I would never suggest thinking of AA as a GR successor, but approached as an unfairly hard sim there's a lot to like about the OFP series.

Yeah, that's the part I don't get. Nothing wrong with an unfairly hard sim, but how much would it have cost them to add some configuration settings that would allow us average joes to get by? e.g. IL-2 is deadly hard on the most realistic settings but you can turn on/off a lot of the realism features. In ArmA it seems even the lowest level is designed with the hardcore OFP gamer in mind. Very strange business decision.

I'm not positive on AA's settings, but OFP had things like letting you see your position on the map that would normally seem like a given but actually were there to allow average joes to get by. If AA is as much like OFP in options as it is in gameplay, it can probably get a lot worse.

If you can tolerate the game, though, give it a while. You'll get a lot better, learn a lot about the gameplay, and probably really start to enjoy it.

But if you don't want to devote that kind of time, it's perfectly understandable. OFP(/aa, from everything I've heard) is only really appreciated by people who lack the sanity to go play something fun.

[CrowmanUK]

Theres not many games where you need to learn about mapreading, topography and compasswork just to get where you're going and figure out where you are, thats just a few of the many reasons I love it.

[Pritzl]

Its a game that definitely falls into the category of "take your time", if you do see an enemy force then you need to guarantee that once you do open fire theres a good chance that none of them will be alive to shoot back, bullets hurt a lot and with the AI on higher levels you dont have much chance once they do start firing on you.

And what makes you think I didn't take my time? I did a whole boatload of waiting and then waited some more. I got really good at sniping that first patrol and relocating before the BRDM showed up or other troops flanked. Indeed, I usually take them out while they're still flanking the original position completely oblivious to our new location.

I think you're overreacting Pritzl. You need to give it some more time of serious playing and then you'll really appreciate the difficulty level.

I've spent 10+ hours as it is and probably will spend a little bit more just because I'm kinda ###### about not finishing the mission. I wouldn't mind the difficulty level if there was a way to tone it down to start, but this is at bloody cadet level!

Do you really want to kick the AI's ass first go at the Demo? I would hope not - then the game would be too damn easy.

Why would you think that? Try almost a dozen tries and I still haven't made it into the town proper. I'm no twitch-gamer looking for a run-n-gun title but ArmA is a bit too much imo.

Once you play the Demo several dozen times you start to work out what works and what doesnt, and when you figure it out, you can beat the Demo with a team of good players over and over again.

I have no intention of playing the same mission several dozen times just to be able to complete it. Besides, if I could use human players it wouldn't be as hard probably. That's why I specified that it was the offline SP game that was extremely weak.

Shooting from a distance for us should be hard - if I can tag a guy at over 100 yards with my first or second bullet like GR, then its actually not that realistic at all. You have to expect to use several rounds at that range, but so the game isnt too easy, pressure is added by giving the AI better accuracy. Hate it? You should love it - it lifts your game and creates more of a challenge.

And you are basing this on what precisely? First-hand experience? Even if it were true, it should at least be configurable in the difficulty settings.

What fun would a Demo be if there were only 20 AI on it - you said you took out 20 and your friends took out over a dozen. Game would have been over long ago...boring. The fact that you, one man, successfully eliminated 20 before being eliminated is not a disgrace, its an excellent performance and in reality you would have just been given a big shiny medal for that effort. Your family would have received it unfortunately you couldnt be there...lol.

In reality, I'd be dead, several times over, before I even got anywhere near 20 kills.

As far as you still not beating the mission - that clearly wasnt your fault, it was the inadequacy of the other guys with you who could only knock out a dozen between them.

I said that was part of what ###### me off about the game. The friendly AI is very, very frustrating.

nuff said, give the game a good go and I'm sure you'll learn to love the fact that the AI will kick your ###### if you let your guard down.

No thanks, I have better things to do with my time than playing a game over and over to learn how to beat it. That isn't my definition of fun and this coming from someone who plays IL-2 on full realism (for 5 years) and went so far as to purchase a number of air tactics books to get the hang of it.

But if you don't want to devote that kind of time, it's perfectly understandable. OFP(/aa, from everything I've heard) is only really appreciated by people who lack the sanity to go play something fun.

Like I said, that's my problem. What's wrong with a difficulty setting that allows those of us who don't want to spend months/years learning how to play the game still enjoy it? Even on lowest settings the game is ridiculously hard.

[Lightspeed]

pritzl, get a grip ######.....

if you're not getting into the town after over a dozen tried then thats your first mistake.

if you sit on the hill and wait you will get your ass kikked. the only way to beat the AI is to knock out the first guys on the hill, then penetrate the village, you must get inside to have a chance.

i have never played OFP before, and in 10-15 hours of playing I have beaten the mission. Im not elite I just learnt that the best way to win was to get inside.

Join the Alpha Squad server - Ill give you addy if ur interested - and then you can have a crack with us. In a short time you will respect and love the level of difficulty and wish ou'd never posted this rant. ArmA is the ###### and thats just how it is. You just have to realize it.

[Malleus]

Pritzl, this is a Coop mission, meant to be played with other people who, supposedly, peform better than the AI (I guess both individually and as a team). I, too, couldn't complete this mission with AI backup (although I haven't tried it that much). Also, don't forget that you can save game in normal SP ... at least I hope so...

[Noraf]

yes, in sp you can save during missions ( in cadet mode, unlimited )

[Pritzl]

pritzl, get a grip ######.....

Thanks, that will surely change my mind.

if you're not getting into the town after over a dozen tried then thats your first mistake.

if you sit on the hill and wait you will get your ass kikked. the only way to beat the AI is to knock out the first guys on the hill, then penetrate the village, you must get inside to have a chance.

I only stay on the hill until I've killed the first patrol. Then I relocate to another hill on the other side of the road where I can pick off the guys that come to assault the first position. Then I relocate again to a better vantage point on the town and cover my guys as I send them in. Still, the farthest they've made it is a few meters beyond the roadblock on the South East end of town.

i have never played OFP before, and in 10-15 hours of playing I have beaten the mission. Im not elite I just learnt that the best way to win was to get inside.

I've only put in 10hours or so. The first few tries lasted about 5 minutes each tops. I learnt from my mistakes and moved on but the friendly AI just can't do a decent job. I often know exactly what I need them to do but can't figure out how to accomplish it in a timely manner.

Join the Alpha Squad server - Ill give you addy if ur interested - and then you can have a crack with us. In a short time you will respect and love the level of difficulty and wish ou'd never posted this rant. ArmA is the ###### and thats just how it is. You just have to realize it.

I doubt it because I never said the MP sucked. For one thing I can easily see how a coordinated group of players on comms can accomplish quite a bit in this game. But I play offline mostly so the artificial difficulty level meant to challenge a group of human players is just too much for my brain-dead AI team.

Pritzl, this is a Coop mission, meant to be played with other people who, supposedly, peform better than the AI (I guess both individually and as a team). I, too, couldn't complete this mission with AI backup (although I haven't tried it that much). Also, don't forget that you can save game in normal SP ... at least I hope so...

I understand, but why not provide difficulty settings that allow us to tone down the challenge so it's assailable offline too?

This is why I didn't want this posted here in this forum. Some of you, understandably, take my criticisms almost as a personal assault on your own contrasting opinions. I know some people like it so. My question was why limit the scope so much?

In the meantime, unless something drastic happens, I won't be posting here anymore since it borders on being rude to just hang around and bash a game you don't even play. So, adios...

[CrowmanUK]

Sussed why you're having a hard time, I think. The squad control commands were broken in gently in flashpoint, you're taking on the role of squad commander right from the start and its not easy to start with, after a while though ordering the units around is much easier and they do tend to do as theyre told.

[Buehgler_AS]

I would agree. Doing squad command (especially with the AI) is DAUNTING. But let's remember that this is a multi-player demo. Drawing conclusions or making criticisms about what the single-player game will play like based on this seems just a bit inappropriate to me. At this point I have been involved with teams that have beaten the demo mission by attacking from just about every direction. In each and every case it required coordinated movement and quick tactical relocation and/or coverage to succeed. Success really depends on setting teamates out to cover flanks and respond to enemy movement -- I've found that direct or narrow attacks tend to rapidly degenerate. As I recall the best we have done is to insert with 7 humans and 1 AI, and to have 1 KIA (we attacked from South of insert up the East road, then relocated East to attacked from there, and finally made entry from the East and NorthEast to clear out the stragglers). But we have succeeded with split simultaneous attacks from North and South, we have turned it into a defend of the West factory complex, we have drawn them into the large field West of insert,... you name it and it seems possible.

That is the thing that makes this game attractive. Here is one apparently quite "trivial" demo mission and success at it requires decent coordination and can be accomplished in probably a dozen structurally different ways. Based on this I foresee a very high level of replayability for "real" missions and am thus quite optimistic about this game.

[Warbird]

I personally didn't find playing the demo that difficult but then again, when I first started playing VBS two years I found that difficult after playing GR for 4 years. It is a steep learning curve, but once you get past that, it's a lot of fun. I didn't have a problem with the single player but I have to admit, it's much more enjoyable in a multiplayer setting so we found out after walking through the demo with myself and 3 other team members with only one friendly AI death. I think that if you stick it out a little longer, you will eventually enjoy it. Of course this is only my opinion as I enjoy and look forward to challenges.

|RE|Warbird

[Sup]

pritzl, get a grip ######.....

i have never played OFP before, and in 10-15 hours of playing I have beaten the mission. Im not elite I just learnt that the best way to win was to get inside.

He might simply not like the game, Lightspeed.

I played OFP seriously for years, and while I admittedly haven't gotten to play Armed Assault yet, with a few minutes' adjusting I could probably take those 32 enemies alone, and maybe another fifty with a squad, assuming the command system hasn't worsened, but not everyone is going to want to play the game that obsessively. A lot of the charm of Ghost Recon, (the game which we all have in common here, I should hope,) was the way it valued fun over punishing realism.

'Flashpoint is a very different game, and while it's one of my favorites, I'm not going to try and convince someone that they'd like it if only they weren't being so stupid as to take a slow approach to a town in some demo.

[CrowmanUK]

The commands have slightly changed mate, the worst bit is not being able to split your squad into coloured groups and give them separate tasks

Do you think you'll all be migrating to ArmA then Warbird?