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GRAW PC gets mention in Gamespy PC Game Awards..


Rocky
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Perhaps not for the best of reasons, but Tom Clancy games, inc. GR:AW, were mentioned in the Gamespy 2006 Awards today - during a gripe about Day One Patching of PC games...

We understand that PC games are complicated beasts and people are always going to encounter unique problems, but it's become clear that several publishers have made a quiet policy of "release now, patch immediately." When was the last Battlefield game that didn't have a Day One patch? Almost every Tom Clancy game released for PC seems to have major issues out of the box, including Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Splinter Cell Double Agent, and the just-released Rainbow Six: Vegas. These are two brands that were once cornerstones of PC gaming, and they're now shadows of their former selves. Maybe even more discouraging is the fact that we're starting to see this sloppiness creep into console titles as well. It's up to gamers to Just Say No or else this is a trend that won't end anytime soon.
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NO !

how about publishers get some HEART in what they do

and reap less and GIVE more

whether it is to the gamer or dev team, the PUBLISHER should have more heart for the GAMES they publish and a little less heart for their POCKETS !

we gamers try to give trust and support and the PC gamers FEAR the console and that it might KILL pc-gaming

if we gamers pc especially would stop investing and supporting games and devs and sadly publishers, who would even want to make games for the PC ?

who would publish for pc when we gamers stop buying?

and communities like this die out because we should say NO ??

we should stand up and make a stand, but not go for selfdestruction

cause that would mean no one will publish any pc game

we got forums and a voice. rather be using that and buy games and honnestly say whats wrong than not buying and complaining about things we do not know.

the industry should put some heart in it a little or a lot more

(no offence grin as i would like to exclude you from this generalisation and any other dev team that works their ass of to please)

publishers and the likes should return to the thought that games might be art or creative works, and not an assembly line product or fast food like BS

thanks ...

(no offence to those who have heart for gaming or do say NO, every one has a choice and I say YES, BUT !)

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Perhaps not for the best of reasons, but Tom Clancy games, inc. GR:AW, were mentioned in the Gamespy 2006 Awards today - during a gripe about Day One Patching of PC games...

We understand that PC games are complicated beasts and people are always going to encounter unique problems, but it's become clear that several publishers have made a quiet policy of "release now, patch immediately." When was the last Battlefield game that didn't have a Day One patch? Almost every Tom Clancy game released for PC seems to have major issues out of the box, including Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Splinter Cell Double Agent, and the just-released Rainbow Six: Vegas. These are two brands that were once cornerstones of PC gaming, and they're now shadows of their former selves. Maybe even more discouraging is the fact that we're starting to see this sloppiness creep into console titles as well. It's up to gamers to Just Say No or else this is a trend that won't end anytime soon.

Hmm not honerable mention exactly, but I can't see pc gaming come to an end. It's games that drive the pc requirements for consumers, and I think Nvida, Intel, Asus, ATI, etc would be happy to supply parts to gaming PCs as well as consoles. There is an interest too see both markets alive...

Still, it has been a change in the 'release standards 'of games lately...Sad but truth...

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Part of the issue is that previously there was no way to patch a game after release. Anyone remember the Commodore 64 & Atari 2600?

I experience the same issue at work (in construction) due to cell phones. Now there is no reason to plan your day in advance, because you can just call if you forget or need something.

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ofcourse buggyness is a sore issue, but it really hasnt got much to do with sloppyness in most cases but more from lack of time, and also I think alot of it comes from the forgetfullness of players, in our heads the games of years past was perfect and bugfree, but in reality they were really just as buggy as games are now. I wouldnt say games have become sloppier(especially considering how much more advanced they are nowadays) but peoples expectations has gotten higher. but ofcourse, me as much as anyone would wish games were bugfree, but there really isnt a "fix bugs" button to press(if there is, please tell me where its located on the keyboard!) :)

that said, looking back, GRAW patched is ofcourse alot tighter than graw out of the box and ofcourse we would have wanted it to be as good as it is now from the start, but time time time doesnt always allow this.

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Bigger & better games = more code = more opportunities for bugs

Bigger & better games = more features = higher expectations = lower tolerance for bugs

Older games = novelty factor + idealized memories = less objective appraisal

More code = more bugs. You can't escape that reality. This doesn't just apply to the games themselves but everything from the OS to the various firmware and drivers already on our systems. There is just no comparison.

Next comes the novelty factor. When Doom was released there was no such thing as an FPS. It didn't matter that monsters came straight at you, textures looked like vomitted porridge, weapon muzzle flashes were opaque, levels were linear, etc..., etc..., etc... because there was nothing else like it.

Short and idealized memories also play into it. We fondly remember the only tweak necessary for DOS games (adding the HIMEM and 386 lines to our config.sys files) conveniently forgetting that some failed to run inspite of it.

Last but not least, more features = more opportunities to expose bugs. Some examples:

  • 2D games don't have to worry about clipping and collision detection is far far simpler.
  • Sound bugs like looping or crashing are far more likely when it has to be volumetric 3D surround than just an odd assortment of beeps.
  • AI pathfinding is only really a problem when games are chock-full of obstacles, many of them dynamic. Remember the original Doom? How many such obstacles would you encounter in a level?
  • Strange dead body positions? Not a problem when the bodies are just 2D sprites that look the same from every angle. (again, see the original Doom)

I just know that someone is going to jump in with the inevitable "but we're talking about some more recent games here like [GR]!" And the difference is? [GR] was just as buggy as GRAW at release even though it offered far less tech-wise. (physics? What physics?)

I will say this though. Truly innovative games are few and far between nowadays. There are far too many "recipe" games out there that fail to add anything new to our gaming experience. The most likely culprits are skyrocketing development costs and the publisher/developer paradigm. Enthusiast games keep dwindling as a percentage of the total and publishers are unlikely to risk millions of dollars on an unproven game concept.

Edited by Pritzl
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Both of the above statements are correct in a technical sense of the word. BUT and its a big BUT.

A product was released as a full, ready, commercially viable item at FULL price to the public. It was not released with a big sticker on it saying "Hey we tried to fix everything but whatever, no time, buy it at your own risk". We were not given the option to pay for it on a pro rata basis (ie a percentage now and we will pay the rest as you fix it).

The TIME excuse is starting to wear thin in the PC gaming industry now. If it's not ready then don't release it, but that's not the way it works is it? No...

The publisher want's their money back, as soon as possible and to hell with the gamer so they can move on to the next title and grab more cash.

Yeah things are more complex nowadays, but then the tools to produce those complex things are now available when they weren't before. So that argument is actually self negating.

It comes down to this in the end, a product was released to the public that was NOT finished. At least GRIN actually admit this and have endevoured to rectify it to some extent, but please don't use the TIME excuse as if this makes it all ok because to be frank I think most of us are getting sick of hearing this from the entire industry.

Edited by Dai-San
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Yes time is a big factor. Right now the publishers aren't going to stop doing it, infact it's only going to get worse IMO until it gets to a critical mass of sorts with the consumer. It's going to take it getting worse until the media and the consumer wake up and just say "NO MORE" to the publishers.

As long as the gaming media accepts it and the consumer keeps running out and grabbing everything as soon as it hits the shelves, then the publisher keeps making money and justifies it's rushed buggy release strategy.

The only games that this seems to not be happening to systematically, are from the independent developers that are either self publishing or are contracting with a publisher to distribute the game but not fund it. Ala Valve with both the steam distro and boxed distributions from EA I think.

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time is an issue....

we use it as gamers far too often

"WE WANT A DATE ???"

any one ??

again i think we should go aim our arrows at the publisher who gives green light to games that still require work, but PUSH it out just to get some money in advance....

technology would be a valid point,

things change rapidly in the PC industry and there is a great diversity of components, and all have to be compatible,

No the game or product has to be compatible with all that hardware

no matter how ######ty the hardware or drivers are the game gets the blame..... because that is where it breaks down, here time is an issue

because time might be required to test and verify certain things

people should have more tollerance....

gamers towards dev's and publishers about quality and expectations

publishers towards devs and gamers, give time and good info and such

devs well they have shown lots of tollerance towards us here

they probably know the hardship of unfinished bussiness

and can not easily go intollerant towards the publisher because of a contract....

(i have become a fan boy..... sorry grin)

but most of all

people should, in all things care less about the financial things and more about the non material rewards,

anyway i guess most will be bored with my whinning ......

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It's not just the gamer per se either. The stock holder and the suits also have to attempt to meet financial expectations for the quarter or year. Sometime if a company is doing poorly for the year they will attempt to push out a game inorder to boost the books.

Where the onus lies on is the gaming media to let the gamers know if the game is full of bugs. And the general gamer/consumer to listen to this and NOT purchase right out of the gate if there are major issues or missing features that are potentially deal breakers for them. Which is why I waited to purchase GRAW until I did. I didn't make much of a difference to UBI for just me, but if more people would do as I have it would go along way to sending the message to them.

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ofcourse buggyness is a sore issue, but it really hasnt got much to do with sloppyness in most cases but more from lack of time, and also I think alot of it comes from the forgetfullness of players, in our heads the games of years past was perfect and bugfree, but in reality they were really just as buggy as games are now. I wouldnt say games have become sloppier(especially considering how much more advanced they are nowadays) but peoples expectations has gotten higher. but ofcourse, me as much as anyone would wish games were bugfree, but there really isnt a "fix bugs" button to press(if there is, please tell me where its located on the keyboard!) :)

that said, looking back, GRAW patched is ofcourse alot tighter than graw out of the box and ofcourse we would have wanted it to be as good as it is now from the start, but time time time doesnt always allow this.

Valid points Wille, in 6 years we will probably all remember GRAW as a 'state of the art' release due to forgetfullness hehe...

Well, I don't think the main problem when speaking of GRAW (NOTE I'm speaking MP t vs t- wise) was bugs really, it was the pre-term release by UBI without complete MP features and maps as the community expected (and also was admitted by you guys due to time constraints).

GRAW MP 1.35 is in my point of view a very nice and tight package. Not exactly what I had expected of a sequel of GR, and not what I wished for, but still I have blast playing me and my clanmates. Unfortunately, the release of the additional basic gamemodes (TDM etc) and the 1.35 patching came far too late, most GR clans and former competetive GR players have moved on and seem not to return :(

I'd appreciate if not 'everything' in GRAW 2 evolved around the SP campaign. As you well know, there are tons of players buying games solely for MP and never even bother about the SP features. Time for the MP development should be allotted too, that's my 2 cents.

I also appreciate you GRiNer's presence here on the forums. I understand it must be tough to get criticized for something you all put your best efforts in, and may often be taken personally. It's normally more easy to criticize than to give credit, especially for a sequel of a ground breaking and beloved game like GR...

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Yeah things are more complex nowadays, but then the tools to produce those complex things are now available when they weren't before. So that argument is actually self negating.

Read my post again. I never said it took longer necessarily to program a game nowadays, which is where the tools you speak of generally help out. They allow developers to be more productive and output more code, models, etc...

OTOH, I do not know of a single tool that can actually prevent semantic bugs. (as opposed to syntactic bugs) Sure, good IDE's can catch the missing semi-colon or open quote and even do a good job debugging the program but they can't tell you that this code won't do what you think it should or appraise every possible variation of user input. As for 3D game engines, they often have to be so heavily modified the concept of "tried and tested" code goes out the window. All this and we haven't even touched on bugs unique to the end-user environment.

Edited by Pritzl
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