Community map?

[X69RZX]

So, I haven't seen this brought up, but maybe I over looked it, or maybe I just want to ask myself.

What if we did a community map?

Push the engine to it's max, and each contribute elements.

For instance, a building. Instead of a good map by one person, they could spend half the time creating a great building with lots of dynamic objects and stuff. I dunno, there are still some great modders here that could all come together to put the cards on the table and see what we all could do.

Example, I have created animated birds that flap their wings(not really ground breaking) and fly out of the trees to other trees when triggered. You can have as many as you like flying in different directions, then trigger them by script via proximity or gun fire. Someone in the distance can see the birds fly and know the general location of the disturbance. They can be re-set by timer to fly away again after the birds would have settled. To do them realistically for a whole map would be crazy if you had to make the whole map too, but if you where only doing part of it.......Well, you could make a large variety of birds, place them and animate them. You could create four sided effects that would trigger right to left ect so that if you came up on the right of the tree, the birds would fly to the left ect. I'd give my stuff up and do the work on those parts(and other stuff too) if others where interested.

Even if we only do one map, it would possibly be the best map for GR ever. Oso, Blakeness, Sleeper, Cobaka, Deleyte, you guys are the best mappers frequenting these forums I rekon, so obviously, I'm looking for your input(even if that doesn't mean direct participation). I've been out for a bit, but I'm back and will do the leg work and be go-between to coordinate all the people and parts for the map(s). You old schoolers know me, this would be fun I think, and a way to get some of those great ideas out there in a fresh medium instead of letting them rot. The newer guys who I may not know or w/e, I'm in no way be-littling your work, or possible contributions. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks and who would want to work on this. I know that the bigger they are, the harder they fall, and this stands true for modding, but we can try, nothing to loose for trying eh? Guess we'll see.

[cobaka]

Sounds interesting. I actually like doing buildings (sort of) but doing many of them just takes so much time. Would be nice to not deal with everything.

[Dannik]

Perhaps something akin to a object repository, with all objects released under a GPL or Creative Commons license, to preserve the original creators' rights, but allow for free licensed use in other projects? Instead of scrolling through readme files trying to figure out if the author will allow repurposing, you check the repository, looking for something that suits your needs, and just use it, respecting the license.

No need to reinvent the wheel, or create a huge "I need a..." request list. Make what you're good at, or contribute what you've made before, and want to share. The great thing about using the above licences is you get to retail legal control, but can otherwise share and benefit freely.

Great idea, mate. You would need to demonstrate to those who already try to release their models/scripts semi-freely that it's a worthwhile idea, and start a proof-of-concept project to get the ball rolling, but the possibilities are literally endless.

[X69RZX]

My idea to preserve the privacy of each creator's work is; to cooperatively agree on a design, be it a real life location, or imaginary. Collect data on the location, maps, topo, ect. Once the main plane is down, the terrain that is, then each item to be built by a designer could be assigned an x,y,z coordinate for the location and orientation of thier object's origin point. That way, any animations they do will be in the proper orientation in relation to the map's center point and still function properly. Or at least that's my idea. (will that work?) In this way, thier "tricks" will still be secret, only the person selected to compile the components would need to have access to all of the work in it's raw format.

I see what Dannik is saying too, and of course I would love to suggest that meshes be distributed with the release of the mod to assist in future mods and what not, but then, that would of course be up to the creator.

[Phlookian]

Push the engine to it's max,

For instance, a building. Instead of a good map by one person, they could spend half the time creating a great building with lots of dynamic objects and stuff. I dunno, there are still some great modders here that could all come together to put the cards on the table and see what we all could do.

As to my understanding there is a limit to dynamic objects:

The number of doors/ windows/ destroyable objects as well as actors/ vehicles FX can only add up to a certain number

It's a challenge to make things interesting while finding a few key things to animate etc

A lot of fan made maps already exceed the limitations placed on the origmiss maps

Nice idea though

[OSO]

First, you can ony have 255 dynamic objects on a map. This includes windows and doors. That dude who made the carribean map and the downtown map ran into this problem on the latter map.

Ideally, working as a team is the most productive way to create a map. Sleeper, H-Hour and I have shared objects in the past so it isn't unheard of. After all these years I have yet to make a tree of my own.

The challenge to the project is management of the whole affair. Who is in charge? Who makes the final decision on layout, etc..?

From my experience most of the guys that take the time to make a map are pretty set on a specific layout and unless they ask for ideas and input aren't too hip on changing them (this includes myself).

[Dannik]

Perhaps the project needs a manager who has real-world experience in the managing aspect. They wouldn't need to be a modder, just like a movie director doesn't need to have set building experience.

Find someone with the skill and time to manage the day in, day out aspects of workflow. They wouldn't be the "boss" per se, just the co-ordinator to ensure smooth communication and asset management.

Just a thought. I'd volunteer ZJJ,for example, but she'd kill me.

[X69RZX]

Like I said, I'll take the task of coordination and comlpilation. I would much rather spend my bugdet of dynamic objects doing cool stuff like making dumpsters with doors that a player could open and hide inside of rather than spending them on windows. To me, that is the challenge of the idea I'm trying to present, break out of the box and collaborate and brainstorm. There doesn't seem to be many people interested anyway, but I won't give up just yet. I'm off to find some possible locations.

Dannik makes a great point, I would just love to see what we could all do combining ideas and skills, I'm open to all suggestions.

[callmehobbes]

A great thread for a great idea. The only contibution I could offer is with texturing. I'm still new at texturing maps but am willing to do what I can when the time is available.

Another suggestion that may or may not be possible is to have a mix'n'match system for the maps. By this I mean having the same buildings/objects on different landscapes, or a number of maps with some extra buildings or some buildings removed (this would work particulary well if there was mission/campaign that required a building/wall etc being destroyed). Basically anything to add as much variety and possibilities has to be a good thing (but without having to create a whole new map each time). Just an idea!

Cheers and good luck with this!

CMH

(PS I had the idea of having a mission where the ghosts had to infiltrate the ship on the the IceBreaker (ship) map from OpFB. The idea was that on the ice surrounding the ship were flocks(?) of penguins that would screech and run if you got to close to them thus giving your position away. Alas this wasn't to be!)

[El_Davido]

Its a pretty good idea, but it would probably look like a patch work quilt, as for instance say my own textures look completly diffrent from snowfellas textures, and then Snowfellas look completely diffrent to Deleyts. And say for instance you have one person who poors there heart out into a building and every face is mapped perfectly then someone else who doesnt quite go the full mile, the final effect will be very noticable in game.

This could obviously be managed out by a good manager.

[TheBlakeness (HotPants)]

Its a pretty good idea, but it would probably look like a patch work quilt, as for instance say my own textures look completly diffrent from snowfellas textures, and then Snowfellas look completely diffrent to Deleyts. And say for instance you have one person who poors there heart out into a building and every face is mapped perfectly then someone else who doesnt quite go the full mile, the final effect will be very noticable in game.

This could obviously be managed out by a good manager.

possible solution...With the exception to the terrain map, only use stock GR textures. At the most allow for small edits to the texture.

Im surprised that my name came up..I suck at maps. Tried to make one once and Im pretty sure Sleeper is still laughing at it. I could never picture things that large in max. The only thing I would probably be good at in a project like this is making objects to place in the map. Even buildings might be a little much for me. Most of what I know about maps are what I have learned from working with the real talent...OSO, Sleeper, etc

@OSO,

Funny you should mention trees. IIRC, that was one of the things in YOTM that Sleeper hated the most..making foliage.

[X69RZX]

@Callmehobbes, Thanks for the input, any help with textures would be great.

@el_davido, I think that is also part of the attraction to making the map. Each building would be decorated differently irl, so the variations would be kind of realistic I think. It will be a challenge to make this happen with continuity, but I believe the challenge will be met by this community.

@Blakeness, Thought you did more on the mapping end, guess not. Models are awesome though. I'm sure there will be lots of cool objects that will make the map come to life that can be made by you. I think your idea of using only stock textures is great. I think we would want to be open to custom textures, but they would just need to match the stock textures feel and quality.

I like making trees and foliage so I can work on that if no one else wants to, or even if they do. I'm compiling some map ideas, I think I'll do a poll to decide on one. I guess that's the best way to pick it. Tired now. More tomorrow.

[callmehobbes]

Here's a few ideas to get the ball rolling:

Walls that can be destroyed on buildings (much better than going through doors!)

Trees that can be cut down with explosives (Phlook is working on this for a UKSF mission)

When modelling a building how about creating it with alternate roof types (pitched and flat) -that way with only a little texturing work, the basic model can be used in any environment almost anywhere across the globe.

Rather than build totally new maps, would it be easier to add-on to existing maps (I don't do maps so I'm just guessing here!) but there is a lot of potential in several existing maps to be totally transformed. Ideally a totally new map would be better but in terms of work load this may be a more productive route.

Cheers

CMH

[X69RZX]

Here's a few ideas to get the ball rolling:

Walls that can be destroyed on buildings (much better than going through doors!)

Trees that can be cut down with explosives (Phlook is working on this for a UKSF mission)

When modelling a building how about creating it with alternate roof types (pitched and flat) -that way with only a little texturing work, the basic model can be used in any environment almost anywhere across the globe.

exactly the kind of things I'm talking about.

Rather than build totally new maps, would it be easier to add-on to existing maps (I don't do maps so I'm just guessing here!) but there is a lot of potential in several existing maps to be totally transformed. Ideally a totally new map would be better but in terms of work load this may be a more productive route.

I don't actually think that will work. I'm pretty sure the only way to be able to do what you are talking about here is to make the objects vehicles, which is not exactly what I had in mind.

I think the best idea so far has been to use as many stock textures as possible. Most of them are tagged in the RSB editor for material type which would speed things up a bit, and simply not having to create them would also speed things up for the modelers. This way, any texture guys that want to help could spend their time on cool new stuff for custom applications and not spend it making a redundant texture for dirt. The next big question is the location, or more specifically, the type of map. Desert, jungle, or urban. Also, does it need to based on sat images or can it be a fictional location?

I just started some drawings for an island map with an underground cavern that leads from the main island to the smaller one near by with stalagtites that could fall and break off with grenade or m203 blasts, bunkers that make up a compound and lots of nice terrain and foliage for open field work too.

Another idea, Mexico City.

Should I do a poll to decide on a map type to start designs and basic terrain for this thing? Should I just select a map idea and hope others like and still want to work on it?

Just to be clear, I'm not really trying to compile a database of free meshes to be used in any map. I encourage sharing info and work and all that, but that's not the idea here. I'm thinking more along the lines of building a city. One person normally wouldn't build the whole city. They would have contractors or architects design and build the various areas and buildings individually. Thereby getting a little piece of each of those artisans on the final product. A true community map. A map that is functionally great as well as lots of fun to play on. Each part would be assigned a basic outline, (as an example) a bunker 200x300 meters, that extends two floors down and at least one above ground. You have a budget of 50 dynamic objects for this building (or something like that). In this way, the artist still has all kinds things to work out for himself, the use of his dynamic object budget, the design of everything in the building, as well as the actual building(or cavern or whatever) design itself. As well, the limited dynamic objects are budgeted so that they are distributed evenly across the map.

[Phlookian]

Just a couple of pointers:

The GR1 engine is sorely lacking in many respects:

In fact map makers have to design their way around it ( I know this as I still fall on my face in this respect on a regular basis)

1. Dynamic objects:

The 255 limit (as far as I understand it) includes "in game" items such as actors/ vehicles/ rockets in flight etc, you actually have far less than 255 so 50 per room/ area is a bit of a luxury really)

2. Levels. Maps that extend at least 2 floors down and one above ground are easily done, but the command map / igor can only see 2 of these/ you can only place enemies/ zones on 2 of these. The trick usually is to get 90 percent of your map on the command map, using the intermediate levels to pass between map levels 1 and 2

3. You can make buildings with more than one roof etc but each item removable from the playable area is a dynamic object (see item 1)

4. Collision models. It is possible to allocate a collision plane to, say a dynamic, destroyable wall, however this collision plane fills the area. therefore a room made from this object would not be enterable to the player unless each wall were a seperate object (see item 1)

5. Mexico City (Oh, Puhlease No!)

I hate to be a negative voice (especially at this time of year) but once you get introduced the the game engine you realise that the best map to make is one that is well thought out from a strategic point of view, that lends itself to many gametypes and has no clearly defendable strongpoint posititions. In fact, dynamic objects, are better served as mission specific items. destroyable, and which can be hidden via igor if not required.

Bah, Humbug!

[X69RZX]

Thanks, those were totally random examplesthat I made, not actual ideas, (I thought I made that clear) and if I were to assign 50 dynamic objects to a bunker that would be the main building of the map, I think it would possibly get more allocated to it than say a field or cavern. I don't think there will be some magical number of dynamic objects that will work for every aspect of the map. No. Making the walls individually destructable is exactly the idea, it would really not be logical at all to make a room that was destroyable totally or what ever you were trying to explain. Simply to have a more dynamic environment that responds to player stimuli is all I'm saying. Perhaps some corners that crumble or a few walls that might be "thin". I wish I had a dollar for everything that people say can't be done in this game but then is done by someone who is willing to try.

once you get introduced the the game engine

Joined: 8-April 03, while not claiming to be the best mapper by far, I think I'm a lil familiar by now.

[Tinker]

Thanks, those were totally random examplesthat I made, not actual ideas, (I thought I made that clear) and if I were to assign 50 dynamic objects to a bunker that would be the main building of the map, I think it would possibly get more allocated to it than say a field or cavern. I don't think there will be some magical number of dynamic objects that will work for every aspect of the map. No. Making the walls individually destructable is exactly the idea, it would really not be logical at all to make a room that was destroyable totally or what ever you were trying to explain. Simply to have a more dynamic environment that responds to player stimuli is all I'm saying. Perhaps some corners that crumble or a few walls that might be "thin". I wish I had a dollar for everything that people say can't be done in this game but then is done by someone who is willing to try.

once you get introduced the the game engine

Joined: 8-April 03, while not claiming to be the best mapper by far, I think I'm a lil familiar by now.

Swinging Road Bridges would be awesome!

Tinker

[wombat50]

I always longed for a map that had the San Francisco Club, Savoy, and the proverbial Lucky Club on it.

[H-Hour]

2. Levels. Maps that extend at least 2 floors down and one above ground are easily done, but the command map / igor can only see 2 of these/ you can only place enemies/ zones on 2 of these. The trick usually is to get 90 percent of your map on the command map, using the intermediate levels to pass between map levels 1 and 2

Not true. You can place as many levels as you want, and Igor can recognize all levels, and you can place zones and enemies on all levels. The ONLY limitation is that the command map in-game can only recognize two levels.

[element11]

2. Levels. Maps that extend at least 2 floors down and one above ground are easily done, but the command map / igor can only see 2 of these/ you can only place enemies/ zones on 2 of these. The trick usually is to get 90 percent of your map on the command map, using the intermediate levels to pass between map levels 1 and 2

Not true. You can place as many levels as you want, and Igor can recognize all levels, and you can place zones and enemies on all levels. The ONLY limitation is that the command map in-game can only recognize two levels.

I only ever use one map anyway, never even used 2....

[sleeper]

2. Levels. Maps that extend at least 2 floors down and one above ground are easily done, but the command map / igor can only see 2 of these/ you can only place enemies/ zones on 2 of these. The trick usually is to get 90 percent of your map on the command map, using the intermediate levels to pass between map levels 1 and 2

Not true. You can place as many levels as you want, and Igor can recognize all levels, and you can place zones and enemies on all levels. The ONLY limitation is that the command map in-game can only recognize two levels.

Not true. The command map can recognize any number of levels. The only limitation is that it can only accurately visually represent 2 map levels. The command map will allow you to plot waypoints on any number of levels regardless of how many are actually represented by the command map and command map overlay textures. You can add visual "number tags"(representing map levels that you can cycle through) to each level to lessen the confusion but you only get the two textures to appear as your command map. The two command map textures limit is the only limit.

**Take a look at Neutron's Ship map if you want to see that 5 levels do in fact work without any scripting issues. I'm sure he's got a few others as examples as well, that's just the first one that comes to mind.

Edited December 24, 2006 by sleeper

[element11]

Well put, i dont think we will have to say that for at least a little while now.