Tell me the truth, the community the truth.

[GRiN_Bumbi]

First a short one on the Diesel engine: I'm quite sure it has been completely rewritten at least once since Bandits, and you could say that there is a Ballistics, Bandits and GRAW version of the Diesel engine. But it's a good name, why ruin it with version numbers

About the development of GRAW: I and GRIN knows how many of you feel about GRAW, there was high hopes and lots of different oppinions on what GRAW should have been. Some wanted more or less just a graphical update while others wanted elements that are in other newer games. It became something in between, and it has turned out that most features some of you love while others hate, as Brettzies said - a mixed bag in many ways.

All I can say is that I'm very proud o what GRAW finally became, and if anyone ask me if there is anything I feel that we should have done differently I usually say "I would have liked to spend three extra months on it". Unfortunately few titles today get the amount of money and time that should have been spent on them and good game designs and ideas are ruined every day in studios all over the world since the pace of the industry is set to quantity instead of quality.

I guess the ones who does not like GRAW can only hope for it's financial success so that Ubi decides to make a new GR that goes back to the first one in the series and hopefully with a huge budget and a development time of at least 18-24 months.

[AJ59]

The writing on the wall should have been clear to anyone after the demise of GR2 for PC. UBIsoft was clearly more interested in console games, where they can make a LOT more money.

I guess they thought they would throw us a bone with this... but weren't willing to devote enough resources to making it a really good bone.

So of course GRAW wasn't going to meet the unrealistically high standards that the GR1 fan base had set for it. Not that GR1 was perfect... far from it. But I think most GR1 fans expected GRAW to be GR1 plus a whole lot more.

However, that didn't happen. Yes, GRAW is a good game and if I was a developer I would be proud of it. Unfortunately most of the GR1 fans aren't happy with it. Who knows... as those GR1 fans are now five years older... five years along in their lives... many can't afford to update their rigs to play GRAW. ("What? You wanna buy a new video card for a new video game when little Tommy needs braces???")

GRAW is GRAW. GRAW isn't GR1. Better get used to it. Oh... don't hold your breaths for GRAW2. It probably isn't going to be GR1 either.

[Papa6]

First a short one on the Diesel engine: I'm quite sure it has been completely rewritten at least once since Bandits, and you could say that there is a Ballistics, Bandits and GRAW version of the Diesel engine. But it's a good name, why ruin it with version numbers

About the development of GRAW: I and GRIN knows how many of you feel about GRAW, there was high hopes and lots of different oppinions on what GRAW should have been. Some wanted more or less just a graphical update while others wanted elements that are in other newer games. It became something in between, and it has turned out that most features some of you love while others hate, as Brettzies said - a mixed bag in many ways.

All I can say is that I'm very proud o what GRAW finally became, and if anyone ask me if there is anything I feel that we should have done differently I usually say "I would have liked to spend three extra months on it". Unfortunately few titles today get the amount of money and time that should have been spent on them and good game designs and ideas are ruined every day in studios all over the world since the pace of the industry is set to quantity instead of quality.

I guess the ones who does not like GRAW can only hope for it's financial success so that Ubi decides to make a new GR that goes back to the first one in the series and hopefully with a huge budget and a development time of at least 18-24 months.

nice post. I'm just a bit dismayed as why UBISOFT yanked the plug on GR2 when it was just about finished? UBISOFT had to have lost money bcz they had to spend money on GR2 upto that point. The gaming industry is brutal. But I'm even MORE curious as to what the GR2 dev team thought about the project being yanked? I guess maybe not much. they got paid for their work so i guess no skin lost.

with GRAW2, I saw the video and look slike the unifroms changed again. I think I saw something that looked like the SA80? or some really new weapons, kinda hard to say.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Papa6

[Wille]

nice post. I'm just a bit dismayed as why UBISOFT yanked the plug on GR2 when it was just about finished? UBISOFT had to have lost money bcz they had to spend money on GR2 upto that point. The gaming industry is brutal. But I'm even MORE curious as to what the GR2 dev team thought about the project being yanked? I guess maybe not much. they got paid for their work so i guess no skin lost.

with GRAW2, I saw the video and look slike the unifroms changed again. I think I saw something that looked like the SA80? or some really new weapons, kinda hard to say.

I can tell you that they were probably quite ###### off when it was pulled. Making a game requires alot of involvement from the uuh..well..involved, and it affects both your personal and social life a great deal alot of the time, but you do it to have something to be proud of in the end, and to have that satisfaction yanked out from under your feet, after having put so much of yourself into something is so frustrating that no one in their right mind could walk away from it without being a tiny bit ###### off. Most people dont work in games to make make alot of money, If I wanted to make alot of money I wouldnt work in games, we/they do it because they love games(for the most part).

and about the uniforms, you dont expect mitchell to wear the same sweaty uniform he wore in the first game do you?it must smell horrible after those intense days in the hot mexican sun!

[IrishStout]

Man, it's fun to speculate the "what if's" in the world .. that's why millions of lottery tickets are sold around the world weekly I guess.

I wonder, I really wonder how difficult it must be to create a game. Think of it.. what kind of GRAW game would you make.. how many people do you think would buy it? Don't forget.. it's easy to say a game would have this and that .. but you need the game engine that can do it, the programmers to have the exact insight you have and be able to program it exactly like you want it..

Not as easy as you think .. because I know.. just from this board there have been many suggestions that have been mentioned that would have stopped me from buying the game.

Anyway, I think GRIN you should be proud of the game you made and don't let any one take that away from you..

It seems to me like the effort was there.. I know what it is like to have to work and miss family time (most important time in my eyes), and work long hours.

There is not such thing as perfections.. because it can always be approved upon..

I for one enjoy the game you made.. If you are the chosen group for GRAW2, please put in the same effort.. try to work through the weeds and figure out what the majority of the Hardcore GR/GRAW players want.. Hopefully you get the time required to deliver the final product you intend to release..

No I am not a fan boy.. I just enjoy the game and appreciate the time and effort put forth.. Are there things in there I would like to see in GRAW2 .. yup.. is GRAW everything i wanted no.. but it's good enough for me.. it has given me hours of enjoyment.. worth it to me!

Edited December 15, 2006 by IrishStout

[Ghost9]

I'm happy that GRAW is so much different than GR1. I used to love GR1 way back when, but not too long ago I reinstalled and played it and really didn't like it very much. I think GRAW was a tremendous evolutionary step that made the game 100 times better and I don't see why Papa is all geeked on RSE. Maybe he has some stock in them or something. Sure there's lots of things that i would've like to have seen with GRAW, but I think GRin did a nice job on it and i think they also went out of their way to really listen to the community and add what we asked for in many ways. I don't see, Papa, where you get off talking about how much RSE listened to the community as if GRIN has not. Ever since GRAW's release I have seen them respond in the forums and I have seen changes within the game that the community had asked for. What in the world makes you think RSE is some benevolent entity? I've seen some crap come out of their office just as much as any other place.

I also find the whining about GR2 getting cancelled funny considering that the console version was not well liked and it would have been very obviously different than GR1. Are you complaining just to complain?

[semjonov]

Well, after playing Rainbow six : Las Vegas on PC I must say that we GR lovers got the good stuff. I only played the first map on Las Vegas and I must say they really just ported the console over. The gameplay don´t seem to have anything to do with RS, on the first map you get to start of alone, but rumor has it you will get two team mates...hehe..

And the framerates? Well, 15-20fps on:

E6600@3400

x1900xt 512MB @675/792

2GB of ram

This is at 1680x1080 but a lot of the options turned off or lowered a lot. I think it looked like ###### even before turning the options of/down. It is like some kind of blur filter all over the screen. Apparently even people with 88000 cards get 20-30fps outside.

So I must say that they gave GRAW their VIP treatment. I hope they do the same to GRAW 2 (But seriously it shouldn´t be called GRAW 2, I think it will be more like an addon that they want to charge full price for and are willing to divide the small community up...). PC gaming from Ubisoft is dead, they are going all in for console, if we wan´t GR/RS type of gameplay I think we have top look elsewere.

There is a slim hope and that is that GRIN has been given more freedom for GRAW 2. If that games fails on PC I think we will see no more GR/RS games from UBI to PC. For face it, Lockdown was crap and no one bought it, no one is going to buy Las Vegas because the demands on the system are truly insane, well, no one that bothers to check it out before búying that is.

Some artistic freedom and time for GRIN and I hope we will have a GRAW 2 that is what GRAW 1 should have been. Face it, they just killed of GRAW 1 with an early buggy release without even multiplayer, I mean, who releases a FPS without multiplayer in 2006?

[KRP 56]

I guess the ones who does not like GRAW can only hope for it's financial success so that Ubi decides to make a new GR that goes back to the first one in the series and hopefully with a huge budget and a development time of at least 18-24 months.

Boy would that ever be great. Another GR game that would be fun to play year after year. Problem is, I can't ever see that happening.

[Hockeystick]

Well, after playing Rainbow six : Las Vegas on PC I must say that we GR lovers got the good stuff. I only played the first map on Las Vegas and I must say they really just ported the console over. The gameplay don´t seem to have anything to do with RS, on the first map you get to start of alone, but rumor has it you will get two team mates...hehe..

And the framerates? Well, 15-20fps on:

E6600@3400

x1900xt 512MB @675/792

2GB of ram

You only get 15-20 fps with an X1900XT card?!

Geez UBI...

[Cangaroo.TNT]

And the framerates? Well, 15-20fps on:

E6600@3400

x1900xt 512MB @675/792

2GB of ram

This is at 1680x1080 but a lot of the options turned off or lowered a lot. I think it looked like ###### even before turning the options of/down. It is like some kind of blur filter all over the screen. Apparently even people with 88000 cards get 20-30fps outside.

Well, does it crash every 30 seconds like SC:DA? If not, then Vegas is top-notch Edited December 15, 2006 by Cangaroo[TNT]

[semjonov]

Well, after playing Rainbow six : Las Vegas on PC I must say that we GR lovers got the good stuff. I only played the first map on Las Vegas and I must say they really just ported the console over. The gameplay don´t seem to have anything to do with RS, on the first map you get to start of alone, but rumor has it you will get two team mates...hehe..

And the framerates? Well, 15-20fps on:

E6600@3400

x1900xt 512MB @675/792

2GB of ram

You only get 15-20 fps with an X1900XT card?!

Geez UBI...

' date='Dec 15 2006, 11:13 PM' post='440182']

And the framerates? Well, 15-20fps on:

E6600@3400

x1900xt 512MB @675/792

2GB of ram

This is at 1680x1080 but a lot of the options turned off or lowered a lot. I think it looked like ###### even before turning the options of/down. It is like some kind of blur filter all over the screen. Apparently even people with 88000 cards get 20-30fps outside.

Well, does it crash every 30 seconds like SC:DA? If not, then Vegas is top-notch

I get 15-20 fps with an overclocked card, an E6600@3400 with a lot of settings on low but, it is a fairly high resolution, 1680x1050. As a comparison I play GRAW at the same resolution, AFx16 postprocessing at low, 30-60+ fps.

And I havent made it crash, but haven´t played much, got turned of by the 15fps....Double agent didn´+ crash either. Thank god I didn´t buy any of those two games, had a friend to lend them to me to test. I am very scared of buying games these days, got a disc of the newest Hitman that I bought downtown for a nice price on the table infront of me, lets hope it is good because I am planning to game and eat candy while my girlfriend is of to work tomorrow.

Also, I am really hoping for a VIP treatment for GRAW 2 but for me it feels like it will be a rush jobb considering the amount of time they had to make it, of course it probably will mainly just be a bunch of maps and some new weapons and skinns but that takes some time to.

Edited December 16, 2006 by semjonov

[[SPQR]The JAckal]

After last 2-3 patches I like GRAW very much.

It has some problems, but all games have bugs, and, in my opinion, GR1 had more bugs than GRAW.

From 1 to 10 my vote is 8.

Edited December 17, 2006 by [SPQR]The JAckal

[AMET_Balamir]

... and if anyone ask me if there is anything I feel that we should have done differently I usually say "I would have liked to spend three extra months on it"...

So, are you saying that GRAW is finished here? No update? No add-on? Really do you think GRAW is a complete game?

[Nutlink]

Actually, AMET Balamir, he's saying that he wishes he had MORE time to work on the game, implying that it's NOT finished.

[AMET_Balamir]

Actually, AMET Balamir, he's saying that he wishes he had MORE time to work on the game, implying that it's NOT finished.

Yes Nutlink, that could be an interpretation... But, what about GRAW2 from GRIN? Do you think they still work on GRAW?

I don't think so but... It's just my mind...

[rookie]

This thread is hilarious. I smell a conspiracy.

So many games didn't meet the expectations when the publishers and producers made bad choices. It happened in the past and will continue on happening in the future. Obviously GRAW and GR2 have not been exceptions. GRAW has been released way too early, at least 6 mons more would have been needed, but that wouldn't have made the implementation of own mods/weapons any easier(too bad). And who really knows why GR2 has been cancelled for the PC. Vegas is the latest example of bad choices, instead of developing a own PC-Version(as anounced on E3 2006) Ubisoft decided to port Vegas because of the positive feedback of the E3(whoever said "it would be nice to see vegas for PC", maybe ended what made Rainbow Six Rainbow Six.).

Most important is, that Publisher/Producers/Developers should learn from these mistakes...but they don't see the mistakes, just profit, so we will see what GRAW 2(shooting drones ? ) and the next R6(grenade launcher ?) will bring us.

[MVTalon]

One question we have to ask or selves is ......Is the co-op community still large enough to make creating the game we want worth the cost of developing ? Can publishers like UBI soft make a profit by doing so ? That is after all what they are in buissness to do. It would be interasting to know what the cost of the additional content that was added to GR:AW added up to in dollars and cents. To my knowledge this is the largest and Best GR site on the web and as such I think if you play or have played co-op GR you have registered here at some point in time.12,880 members across all platforms as opposed to 2.4 million copies (across all platforms) of GR:AW sold. So are there enough of us ???????

Take that 12,880 members and subtract those that no longer play, Those that Don't play the PC version and last but not least those that are happy with GR:AW....what does that leave us with ? I am NOT defending UBI soft just looking at the reality of things.

Edited December 18, 2006 by MVTalon

[RAbbi_74]

You're right. It's not worth a publisher's time or money to give us what we want...

[MVTalon]

Its a sad thing...In my opinion the best type of gaming with the best people.....

[sui317]

it has aslo be able to sell,

i agree with you guys on what coop should be, but it is a steep learning curve for new commers to coop and gaming i guess (or in the eyes of ubi)

[RAbbi_74]

Once again, EA kicked everyone's tail with BF2. Integrated VoIP, simple AND effective orders/commo system, integrated crew positions in vehicles, etc. They hit COOP right on the head.

And BF2 STILL sucks compared to GRAW.

Look, I like this game. I don't LOVE it the way I did GR or any SC prior to the current one. But I like it better than any R6 I've played. Better than DooM3, which is saying something (D3 SP was insane).

But even if Diesel is newer than whatever other engines are being used out there, I take issue with it. It has the understanding of simple physics that one would expect of a 3-y/o mentally retarded chimpanzee. Which is to say, exceptionally little. One word: MOMENTUM! Nonexistent. And THEN look at the thermonuclear overkill of particles when using a PhysX card (wait, am I the only ###### who bought one of those things thinking it would be worth the cost of shipping?). It's got faults. GALORE...

Not that other engines DON'T have faults, but the folks at UbiShaft touted the physics of this game as some kind of electronic revolution. Yeah, good thinking Pierre. No brilliant physicists or mathematicians at Ubi, I can tell...

GRIN, y'all are alright. But when seven months after release this game still isn't fixed to where folks can generally agree it's worth of match play, it's honestly served to do little other than sabotage the GR clans. I don't know if it was Ubi's decision to cut their funding for continued support for GRAW, or if it was something wrong within your studio. Frankly, I don't care. I miss matching with my fellow Ghosts of 30+. I miss it BADLY. And I can't get that back right now, because we haven't got a match-worthy game.

Whoever's fault it is, it no longer matters. Just cuz it's good, it's not necessarily good enough...

And right now, nothing is...

[wildbill]

But they couldn't even get GR2 to work for the PC and scrapped it to make GRAW

Papa, step back from the keyboard mate, it's clearly malfunctioning today.

I just wish i was playing a kick ass GR 2 with homies i have played GR 1 for years now! UBI has just spilt this community, with just not producing a GR 2 that just upgrades GR 1, to the level we had our hearts set on.

I think that is what is really driving at this community to lash out, simply cause we have been let down, in the aspect of multiplayer we have nothing. I was so looking forward to this sequel.....thinking they got it right the first time they are just going to bring on something just that much better,,,,, you know. WELL RSE you guys really pulled off a winner with GR 1, hope one day you all bring us back that action just upgraded with nice effects and realism gritty and tough play we love.

[sui317]

One word: MOMENTUM! Nonexistent.

another word, what if momentum gave a glitch ? some problem that was open for exploits

that only a few could use (thinking of jumping on cars and such strange behaviour?)

then that would be your dismay, but in GR1 you could not even fall.....

these are things we may never know, too bad that it brings down the joy for you

the real answeres are probably trade secrets

btw, momentum is there, just not for the player, try shooting cans or plants or any other prop

Edited December 19, 2006 by sui317