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GRIN - Why do you make it so hard?


RavenousNC
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Well then you have nothing to wonder about. GR:AW, as per specifics, doesn't support modding.

Everything you've gotten that enables some modding is just bonus.

They may not support modding, but they did provide an editor, and some half-baked tutorials. That said, they support it in some fashion.

I used to work for a gaming company, and presently work for the largest privately own software company in the USA. (I think the world, but can't remember if that is correct) If we treated our customers with the same attitude as the makers/publishers of this game, and/or pushed a product out the door in the shape this product was released or patched, we would never be able to provide to the fortune 500 and others.

No matter how anyone tries to explain or reason about how or why GRAW was in the shape it was when released, it is even apparent to the lay-person that it was not what it was expected to be, nor as bug free as to be called even normal for a release.

Back to my original plea, as Papa6 has tried to re-route us, you don't just drop a product in a person's lap, write incomplete instructions, then walk away and say "good luck". And though they didn't walk away entirely, there efforts to fix things, or even appease the audience by giving them what they expected, seem to always be plagued with the introduction to new problems. A thorough testing of the product would bring these problems to light so they could be addressed before the consumer recieves the product/patch. It's obvious it was not tested thoroughly, even in this patch which is the subject of this post. Otherwise the server would be operating with the objectives, or it would be noted in the readme file of the patch that it was buggy.

You can't explain it away. They have only two thing to do... fix what they have broken and be surer about the shape of the product before releasing it or any patches. That does not mean that everything will be bug free, but it does decrease the margin of error.

Rav :zorro:

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Yeah Rav, i was one of the beta testers for at least one of the patches for GRAW. What shocked me was, we tested the patch and reported the bugs/issues. this lasted for like 2-4 days. but when it was over, just days later "WHAM" , the patch was released. none of the bugs were fixed but we got content.

I think that was what stuck out in my mind. just days later, i wondered how they could've done the fixes so fast. But they couldn't have. Beta testing is meant to find issues, fix them THEN release. GRAW it was, Beta test, release.

Let's hope that GRIN gets it right. let's hope

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Well then you have nothing to wonder about. GR:AW, as per specifics, doesn't support modding.

Everything you've gotten that enables some modding is just bonus.

They may not support modding, but they did provide an editor, and some half-baked tutorials. That said, they support it in some fashion.

Well, I'd say no, they don't support full out modding as the game wasn't made to be modded.

The only reason there are a few mod tutorials supplied and that the editor was updated slightly is that the community asked for it. And they delievered what could be done without making changes in the engine. As it was to late to do changes in the engine to support modding as the game was already completed. I think the tutorials supplied are quit good, but they require that you have basic game design/production knowledge which is what is required to make mods these days as well due to the games getting more complexed.

I still think that alot of people doesn't look at this product from a neutral point of view. I do as I didn't expect anything special of the game. I never do. It's better to get surprised.

Edited by Wolfsong
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I think the tutorials supplied are quit good, but they require that you have basic game design/production knowledge which is what is required to make mods these days as well due to the games getting more complex.

I disagree on two fronts:

1) While most of the tutorial for [GR] explained how to place objects into the map in a somewhat understandable fashion, they failed to explain things that would clear any obvious questions. I know they can not anticipate every question a user is going to have, but some are pretty obvious. The majority of questions cover the scripting aspect of the mapping process. You can get things to work in a semi-decent way, but the things that may appear to be complex to the novice are not at all. The novice does not know this because it isn't documented properly.

For example the tutorial may tell you how to setup an area to trigger new groups, but the mapper is going to want more, such as tanks or helicopters. It may be easy for someone like yourself to understand what it means to open a bundle file, but I assure you the novice have no understanding what that means, and/or are afraid of what may happen to their game if they attempt to do it and screw it up.

2) Games are indeed more complex, and the means to make them can be even more complex. I have nothing to go by in regards to other games at this point, except for the Unreal Editor. Seems many games made by this editor have maps/mods and are supported. With the GRAW editor, however, it is not so much a complicated program to maneuver, it's what you do on the other side of the editor... scripting.

Yes, I have an advantage over a novice in that I have experience scripting. That experience does not afford me to understand immediately how to write an element tag, know it's properties and values for each property. It doesn’t leap off the page as "Oh, this is an x, y, z co ordinance", or tell me whether or not I can't mix properties. The only way I found out about this information was via the forum and from your tutorials. As grateful as I am for your efforts to provide for us, you should not have had to. The novice, not knowing where to go, may never find your information and simply give up when the feel they have exhausted their search.

So yes, it is complex to whatever degree the user lacks in knowledge, but the complexities could and should be explained by the makers of the game/editor so that the info is readily available to the user.

Well. No, they don't support full out modding as the game wasn't made to be modded.

It should have been. Why would they want to make a product that wasn't able to mod when that is what the consumer expected? You may not have expected it, but that is how you approach it. I personally feel that you are in a minority of people who feel that way. From what I read from people in the forums, modding was not only desired, but expected. So much so that even the makers of the game felt compelled to provide the community with the ability to mod after getting so much heat for not doing so in the first place.

I still think that alot of people doesn't look at this product from a neutral point of view. I do as I didn't expect anything special of the game. I never do. It's better to get surprised.

And surprised we were. No, we weren't neutral from the start. We were getting back to our beloved Ghost franchise and without pause plunked down our $50. We cracked the seal, thus committing finally to the purchase, then installed with anxiousness to play the game. But even the install was plagued to some. They had to get a patch in order to install it. Whoops

While it played SP OK (for most of us) we quickly found that it did not have; the ability for multiplayer, which we expected; a stand alone server, which we expected; a means to edit and create maps, which we expected; as well as a slew of other expectations that we found were not there. This includes the smoke grenades we see in the movie plaing in the interface of the game once it starts. Should we not have expected that?

So we didn't expect anything like what we got, and we were definitely surprised.

--------------

GRAW is not a bad game. The patches to the game have made it better than its release, and we are definitely happy that they provided us a means to mod. If only they told us how to in a manner that we could all understand, not a select few, and made sure that the new additions actually worked as intended. Perhaps then we wouldn't be reading a post like this.

Rav :zorro:

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Well. No, they don't support full out modding as the game wasn't made to be modded.

It should have been. Why would they want to make a product that wasn't able to mod when that is what the consumer expected?

I think you may find the answer to that question Here

I personally think Wolfsong's explaination is probably the nearest to the truth. As much as I think it's wrong, and a let down to loyal GR followers GR:AW was never going to be moddable (hell it's only just MP enabled) and any moddability you have is from GRIN's help here at GRNET and assistance off their own back not UBI's orders.

If it wasn't for GRIN employees turning up here and assisting, then modding would be a long way off what it is now even though that is far from ideal.

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If i may plunk another dime or two. What makes modding GRAW so damn difficult is How one has to go about doing it.

Point#1GRAW we know wasn't intended to be modded. So they built the game from the floor up. but wait, now the users want to be able to mod the game.hmmm

point#2 them having to go back and open GRAW's engine. that is what wrecked the modding thing. it's ALOT easier to setup a feature while in the process of making a game. Having to go back and adjust things and rewire things can only make things worse.

But the modtool(s) should be a separate entity anyway. I use IGOR for an example. But hey, what do I know right?

but to sum what what I'm saying common sense tells me, " It's a whole lot easier to get modding setup at the time of game development then having to go back later and try to find a way to force it into the game.

Edited by Papa6
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Despite my feeling toward how this game was put together, or the state of the patches, it would be nice to have a polite conversation with GRIN folks about what, if anything is coming in another patch. To know what is going on and that we can have some sort of input, even if it is only via a forum.

Problem is that you get folks with an opinion like or worse than mine that want to beat up on them. I don't care to do that. Voicing my opinion has already done that, I guess. I can understand why they don't chime in. Just wish they would.

Rav :zorro:

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I'm on Teamspeak now and one member said,

once you mod and get around one technical issue, they introduced yet another issue. then you find yourself running in circles.

And I'm getting pretty dizzy from doing so.

I've got two maps I'm working on. One that I have had to completely redo in regards of enemy placement due to finding out that objectives do not work in [GR] on a stand-alone server.

Unless they get things working as they should, I'm done with modding GRAW after these maps.

Rav :zorro:

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I'm on Teamspeak now and one member said,

once you mod and get around one technical issue, they introduced yet another issue. then you find yourself running in circles.

And I'm getting pretty dizzy from doing so.

I've got two maps I'm working on. One that I have had to completely redo in regards of enemy placement due to finding out that objectives do not work in [GR] on a stand-alone server.

Unless they get things working as they should, I'm done with modding GRAW after these maps.

Rav :zorro:

The joys of GRAW.... :wall: It's an endless up hill walk and there is no end..... when wiki.com go live again after their site re make (18 Dec 06) my wiki will be up again I will post a link , it might help... (it was made when I use to make maps for GRAW)

viii

p.s. till the 18th..

link will be dead till the 18th http://viiiper.wiki.com/GRAW_MAP_MAKING

reason: http://www.wiki.com/

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I think the tutorials supplied are quit good, but they require that you have basic game design/production knowledge which is what is required to make mods these days as well due to the games getting more complex.

I have to disagree as well. Maybe not all the tuts, but coming from the weapons side, and no offense to Digitally because his tut will help others with no knowledge, but everything in the tutorial that was written was already known. The thing that enabled us to get new meshes into the game was the supplied max sample files. Examining those and reproducing the hierarchy was 10x more valualbe then the tutorial. The tutorial doesn't even explain what half of the nulls are for. Much is self explanatory, but it would be good to know exactly why each is there. Especially since GRAW loves to crash if just one thing is wrong. And of course, the very necessary bits on how to line up sights or scopes is missing. I'm far from a novice as well, but I can't just magically know how game A likes to recieve it's animation data as opposed to game B which explained it.

Anyway, I do appreciate that GRiN has tried to supply us with modding tools as best they can. It's just extremely frustating when you hit a wall and kind of know what you need to move forward. So, I agree with Ravenous, if they're going to supply us with something, and seeing as they pop on here almost everyday, it would be helpful to support it. I know they've taken a lot of flak because of GRAW, but that comes with the territory. The whole entertainment industry is based on it.

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Some really interesting & useful stuff there, thanks Viiiper :thumbsup:

A few minor changes/additions since 1.35 but, Modders can compare with readme txt(s)

example: KEY BOARD SHORT CUTS

1) The 'G' key will toggle through the GRID scales

2) Thumb click (drag) and then right click will 'align to surface', usefull for signs and such.

3) 'B' Key with curser on prop will copy that prop. Saves having to go back through prop menu list.

I'll put together a full list of the ones I know and start a post in Graw Map or Mission Modding

Is there one for Planer Move Toggle??? :hmm:

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Thank you so much!!!!!!!

coming from radiant/world builder for HL2 and COD2 I could not believe the lack of community info on the Game.

The editor is pretty easy (since i don't have to build things one brick at a time:) but it was hard to figure out the file structure and scripts for me.

Im mainly interested in [GR] COOP maps so Thanks for addressing the script for [GR] coop( AI and extraction points) I think i can get it from there lol

Thanks for the hard work!

Edited by winlandr
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If it wasn't for GRIN employees turning up here and assisting, then modding would be a long way off what it is now even though that is far from ideal.

Haven't seen that confirmed yet, but I have had my suspicions about it beeing the case.

I will think more then twice before buy a game released by UBI/ATARI/EA no matter who developed it.

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