GRIN - Why do you make it so hard?

[RavenousNC]

With the 1.35 patch we were told that we could use objectives in our coop maps. I began placing them in my [GR] maps, since they are coop, and was elated to see them working when I tested them.

I tested the map while serving it on the same machine I was playing/testing. Me and the guys spent hours fine tuning the map and placement of enemies, creating objectives that really gave the map a nice flow.

I nearly released the map thinking all was well. Since I didn't set my server up with the new patch I thought I would do so and test the map on it. I was so disappointed to find that my hours of working on the map with the objectives was a complete waste of time. As soon as the server gets the command to show the objective... CRASH!

To make sure it was nothing in my map I decided to make a test map with only one area trigger that did nothing but display an objective. It crashed too.

Strange that the map would play on the machine I was playing/serving, but not on a stand-alone server.

GRIN - Why is it there is no indepth information about how these things work?

Why is it that we have to depend on forums and a select few die-hards to get information on how things work, when we should be getting such info from you?

You'll have to excuse me, but my time is very valuable too. We spend hours working on maps that not only give us new areas to play the game, but helps promote GRAW at the same time. Yet the help and information we need is hardly there.

I'm wore out, disappointed, and frustrated that, with this game & GRIN, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited December 10, 2006 by RavenousNC

[arrowsmile]

I am sure its a simple thing to do, and some one here will give you a hand.

Reading through the many mod posts it nearly always is a simple solution.

[RavenousNC]

I am sure its a simple thing to do, and some one here will give you a hand.

Reading through the many mod posts it nearly always is a simple solution.

Sorry to be so cynical, but my guess is that GRIN either intended not to put them in [GR] maps, or someone dropped the ball when it came to updating the server.

I always thought it was strange that my friends were not seeing the objective text boxes, but were able to see the objectives listing when pressing "M", and see the green boxes that marked each point for an objective.

It wouldn't be so bad if this game did not have its history of being in poor shape since its original release date. Since then it has come a long way. However, it should have never had these types of problems in the first place. Which is the biggest reason some get so disgusted with the game.

Quite honestly, if games such as UT2007, Quake Wars or Crysis were out, and they had editors, I myself would have dropped GRAW already. At least the UT series has had an editor and ways to create for a long time. Sure, the game types are a bit different, but I simply like the action and building maps. I don't look for making it real. After all, it's only a game. My problem with this game is that once again I was let down, and that I keep telling myself I should have known better.

I'm not one to cut and run, but it gets a lot easier to do when they remain consistent at not giving or telling you all you need to run or create for this game.

[arrowsmile]

I would suggest getting in touch with WolfSong he is as far as I know doing this aswell, but much further along.

[Johnny Hazard]

Man that sucks ... I'm glad that I haven't had time to start fiddling with the objectives yet, but as I had planned to use them on my new one and built my map "physicals" due to that. I have to reconsider another option or just scrap the map before I put more work to it.

Has anyone tried if the supply command functions yet?

To much time just to test if the commands and functions realy works in [GR]. And it's time I'd rather used to build maps to play then just to test.

Well, I better use my mapping skills (the few I have) into making mods for NWN2 instead.

[Papa6]

truth is, I spoke to a Grin member whom I'll keep anonymous. but GRAW from the get go was NEVER intended to be modded. With all the anger and loudness, GRIN gave in and gave us something, what, i don't know.

But it's ok to be dismayed. This game was a mis conceived project from square one. all we can do is the best with what we have.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Papa6

[Brettzies]

truth is, I spoke to a Grin member whom I'll keep anonymous. but GRAW from the get go was NEVER intended to be modded. With all the anger and loudness, GRIN gave in and gave us something, what, i don't know.

I'm not surprised by that statement at all. They've provided some things, but in a lot of ways it's more headache then fun to mod. Like the weapons for instance, they never even addressed how you control your own aiming down ironsights or adding a custom scope. Or even just aligning the in game scopes so you can aim properly. Snowfella was able to use a workaround, but that's not going to fly for every weapon. I hate to say it, but they almost provided just enough to frustrate us. You can get close, but you'll never be able to make it correct.

What's interesting is that a game like Swat4, which has a very small modding community, provided a fairly detailed tutorial on how to get a new weapon into the game from first person animations to third person. Sure it has hiccups and isn't simple, but I'll put it this way, it took me about 4 weekends to go from never modding to getting a complete weapon with anims into the game. With GRAW, I've spent countless weekends and hours trying different things, and really I have no idea how I'll get any ironsights to line up correctly. I can model detailed weapons or create custom animations till the cows come home, but if there's no way to line the sights up correctly it just doesn't seem worth doing. Personally I hate doing things half assed or forcing it to fit .

Sorry to rant on a bit, but your frustration is felt in all aspects of modding.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

nag nag nag. I guess modders today are used to get everything handed to them... Modding is an offspring to hacking. You got to do what you got to do to be able to get the result you want with the game you want, no matter what the developers provide.

Anyhow.

@RavenousNC

I suggest you try using your mission as an SP/Coop override instead. You can't use spawn areas as in [GR] Coop, but the rest should work.

@Brettzies

GRiN has said that the weapon animations has been made specific you each weapon to be able to use the actuall weapon to aim with, and that that requires new animations for each weapon added into the game, and that the original animations as encrypted. So don't say that haven't told us how to do it. It's just lots and lots of work to get it done, beginning with creating a decrypter. So it's all about how badly people want to do it, like in the old days.

[Johnny Hazard]

Wolfie your right, but if a developer/publicer wants to sell alot of copies they better provide good tools for modding because nowadays there are lots of other games that provides good tools to their community. Where would Valve been today without their modding community?

Now we have a toolkit and don't know who to thank, GRIN or UBI? It should be UBI that provides means to GRIN to make updates and fixes for both the game and the editor, but today the publicers often releases a game long before completed and we the customers have to ###### for month and sometimes years to get our games fixed.

As someone wrote earlier, I hate halv ass attemptes. My modding time is limited, I have a family and kids that need my attention. If I have to invent the wheel everytime a new game is released, well then I have better ways to spend both my time and my money. As for now I hold on to both very hard because there's no thrust to be given to gready publicers and my list of "banned" publicers is growning.

Support a game even after the first 6 month and I keep buy your games, else I won't touch the stuff with a 10 foot pole!

[RavenousNC]

With the tools provided to us by many other games, we have good reason and just cause to nag, nag, nag.

I doesn’t matter if modding came from hacking. What matters is that it was expected, among other things, that GRAW would have an ability to make maps. The tutorials for the editor are only half-baked, and we have to rely on the select few, such as Wolfie, to understand the things that GRIN should have told us from the get-go.

After spending SO MUCH time with this one map, then realizing I have to go back to the drawing board as far as enemy placement and flow goes, me and my friends are almost ready to call it quits altogether.

I hate being so critical, but I hope whoever is working on GRAW 2 is taking notes. I'm willing to give another version of GRAW a chance, but it will be my last. And if GRIN is working on it, and the game has issues like this game has had since release, I'll never by a product with GRIN written on it.

I'm an [GR] player. Don't care much for SP/coop when you are limited in the ways you are with this game.

I was all set to make some tools for mapping. I had even bought a domain name of www.grawmaps.com that I had planed to build into a mapping community aid. Right now it's just a page with very little on it, and I doubt I'll even go ahead with my plans. Not just because of the objectives problem, but all the other problems as well. I'm wishing I never bought the domain.

There are at least 3 maps in our plans for the Closed Casket series. After the last map is completed there are no plans to continue. We'll play until a new game takes to our liking. And our map making with pick up on the game that not only we find enjoyable, but has catered themselves to satisfying a mapping community as well.

Rav

FOR SALE: www.grawmaps.com

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

I'm an [GR] player. Don't care much for SP/coop when you are limited in the ways you are with this game.

With this statement I don't see your problem. [GR] works. SP/Coop are the gametypes where objectives appear, which was the thing that caused your problem. So you're an [GR] player not doing an [GR] map? I'm a bit confused here.

EDIT:

I don't remember seeing anywhere that GR:AW would be moddable before the release, nor have I later. The community shouldn't expect things that the developer hasn't said will be supported.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Wolfsong

[RavenousNC]

So you're an [GR] player not doing an [GR] map? I'm a bit confused here.

I am making [GR] maps only. When objectives were added it was not mentioned that they were limited to sp/coop missions. In fact, the [GR] tutorial mentions the use of objectives with the 1.35 patch. Based on this we are led to believe that objectives are a part of [GR] mapping.

It wasn't until I got a reply from you, and read your tutorials on the matter, that I got it to work at all. My experience is that it only works when serving on the same game you are playing, and others don't get the same full impact as the person serving. When placed on a server it crashes when trying activate the objective event/element.

Someone obviously dropped the ball on this, and sadly I must add, again.

I don't remember seeing anywhere that GR:AW would be moddable before the release, nor have I later. The community shouldn't expect things that the developer hasn't said will be supported.

This has more to do with what has become a sort of normal expectancy. They made the other Ghost games with the ability to map/mod. This also includes the Rainbow series and many others. It only stands to reason that we would expect the same for GRAW. In fact, many posts were made by folks complaining that an editor was not included when GRAW was originally released. It was obviously expected, and I am certain it was even mentioned in forums long before the release that it was desired to be there.

I do know that we have to depend upon each other when it comes to understanding how and what to do for creating maps/mods. The problem is that we should not have to. At least not to the extent we do with GRAW.

Look at the last version of Unreal Tournament. If you bought the DVD version you got a tremendous amount of video tutorials to aid with making maps for the game. It was expected that the ability to make the maps would be there, but we did not expect the team to provide us with that sort of information. While I never took advantage of it, I surely intend to when UT2007 comes out. And the Unreal Editor has been updated big-time.

Note to readers/mappers - Wolfsong has been very helpful to the mapping community. If you do not know of him, or his help, I highly suggest you look into the GRAW - Mission Modding portion of this site for some very helpful info he has graciously provided.

I'm not kissing up. I simply believe some folks get over looked and/or are underappreciated. His post are, IMHO, helping to keep the mapping/modding alive for GRAW, and he is filling the shoes of GRIN in this area. As much as he may enjoy it, I believe he should not have to work so hard to inform us.

[Brettzies]

GRiN has said that the weapon animations has been made specific you each weapon to be able to use the actuall weapon to aim with, and that that requires new animations for each weapon added into the game, and that the original animations as encrypted. So don't say that haven't told us how to do it. It's just lots and lots of work to get it done, beginning with creating a decrypter. So it's all about how badly people want to do it, like in the old days.

Alright, I know, I've read it in my own threads. Saying it's in the animations is not the same as telling us how to do it. This statement, "So don't say that haven't told us how to do it," is a little bit condescending. That's like saying the weapons are meshes. Really? You don't say...

Anyway, I agree that it is partially about how badly people want to do something. However, I seriously doubt anyone would be able to write a "decrypter" for the diesel files. It's really just a 3d file format. I know that I could never do anything like that nor would I expect anyone to. If the devs are hoping someone will, then that's just insane. Sure with a diesel importer(or decrypter as you called it) to max you could do it, but the devs would be crazy to release that and I dont' see anyone working on anything like that so...

I realize there are a ton of anim files to be generated to aim properly with each weapon, but without a point of refrence I'm not sure anything can be done. Even with a small sampling of the max anim files, or even just one of a basic aim pose and zoom pose, something could at least be started. Or even what to export from the character rig, all the bones? everything? Does the camera get passed between two different nulls when going from zoomed to non-zoomed?

I also realize the devs have no responsibility to tell us anything at all or support modding. I'm greatful for what they have provided, but they also stay 'mum' about certain things, and that's really frustrating. Especially when you see them here all the time. It's rare to have them here and ironic that other games have been modded with no interaction from the devs at all save for whatever tutorials were released.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

I'm only trying to stick to the truth here. I know for a fact that GR:AW wasn't designed to be moddable by GRiN. Why? Because UBI Soft didn't have that on the list of requirments for the game. Making a game engine moddable takes alot of extra work, which I can assure you all is not something a developer do unless the contractor wants it. Because time costs money. Regular demanding deadlines/milestones have to be completed with short intervals, which are what the developer gets payed for when completing. Into those there isn't time to add much extra besides what is demanded by the publisher to get the pay check.

I am making [GR] maps only. When objectives were added it was not mentioned that they were limited to sp/coop missions. In fact, the [GR] tutorial mentions the use of objectives with the 1.35 patch. Based on this we are led to believe that objectives are a part of [GR] mapping.

Well, yes they are. But it is only a halfway solution as they couldn't fix it so you could add real Coop missions. In my eyes [GR] Coop is firefight and recon, and real missions are Coop. But as said, it was the only way to solve the request from the community. Haven't tested it myself as I use the override method to allow the AI team (giving the ability to be played in SP with savegames as a bonus).

I just interpreted your post wrong I guess.

[RavenousNC]

I'm only trying to stick to the truth here. I know for a fact that GR:AW wasn't designed to be moddable by GRiN. Why? Because UBI Soft didn't have that on the list of requirements for the game.

If UBI Soft didn't have that on the list of requirements for the game, then they are surely not listening to the gaming community, or caring about the history of the Ghost series and how fans will accept it.

It's fair to say that there are many game forums out there with people having something to complain about, and you can't please everyone, but if UBI Soft truely did not have this in their plans then I hope they hear the community load and clear with this GRAW debacle.

Debacle because we should not have had the troubles we have had with this game. Though they do make an effort to give us what we want it appears it's only because we "nag".

truth is, I spoke to a Grin member whom I'll keep anonymous. but GRAW from the get go was NEVER intended to be modded. With all the anger and loudness, GRIN gave in and gave us something, what, i don't know.

If what Papa6 says is true, then it seems we are being heard in some fashion. Unfortunately, some of the fixes are not tested fully. Case in point - the objectives work when serving from the game, but not from the server.

Whoever was supposed to test the server with these changes didn't do so. Thus we have another failed attempt to give the user what they wanted, no matter how good the intentions were. And it is these small inabilities to insure quality assurances that add up to make mountains of complaints. They stack onto one another to the point that it makes it really difficult to enjoy the game.

[Johnny Hazard]

I have never complained on GRIN, infact I think they given us more then they been paid for and cudos for that. As I wrote in a earlier post, it's the publicers as UBI, EA and Atari that needs to listen to what we want. Most of the customers don't want to make maps, but they want their game experience to last and one way is too give them alot of maps to play. Now you could include alot of maps when you release the game, or provide them with updates. But maps takes time to do and test and it will prolong the developing time thus costing more money to make and even let the competion get before you with a similair game and thus losing market. Another way is to sell them as expansions, but if you release an expansion to soon customers will get upset and demand thatthe maps should be released free as updates.

So easiest would be to provide the community with the means to make there own maps and mods thus prolonging the games life expectance!

[TheNoid]

I'm only trying to stick to the truth here. I know for a fact that GR:AW wasn't designed to be moddable by GRiN. Why? Because UBI Soft didn't have that on the list of requirments for the game. Making a game engine moddable takes alot of extra work, which I can assure you all is not something a developer do unless the contractor wants it. Because time costs money. Regular demanding deadlines/milestones have to be completed with short intervals, which are what the developer gets payed for when completing. Into those there isn't time to add much extra besides what is demanded by the publisher to get the pay check.

Exactly!!! Let me put this into laymans terms for you. The game company's in praticular UBI, and VU (To name the 2 biggest offenders) really just care about getting paid. Don't fool yourself, they are laughing at us all the way to the bank. They create a title that has not even been properly BETA tested, and let you BETA test it for them. Then they release the first token patch which may or may not fix the issues. Then when you ###### enough they release a shut up patch. Then they give you a bone and a couple extra really bad maps to "Extend the playability" (Because they care about you the consumer, and modding isn't supported so of course you cannot create your own.) and maybe fix a few more issues. THEN they drop support for the game and create the second title in the series and you buy it all over again and the same cycle goes round again. For those of us that are old enough you can almost remember the days when a game came out and it did what it said on the box. Patches were few and far between (Because they were tested properly first) and modding was recognized as a way to extend the life of a franchise. Those days are gone, now they just want yor fifty the first time and be dammed. Either put up or don't buy the games. If everyone who said they were not going to buy another game from UBI or VU really didn't then things would change, but the truth is when the new game comes out, you will be in line and the cycle will start all over.

[Brettzies]

The game company's in praticular UBI, and VU (To name the 2 biggest offenders) really just care about getting paid. Don't fool yourself, they are laughing at us all the way to the bank.

I agree with most of what you said(didn't quote it all) Though, I'm not sure they are laughing at anyone, just counting their money. I'm also not sure about how much GRIN's hands are tied with things they can or cannot release. It doesn't surprise me at all the UBI would not want modding to flurish, because like you said, they just want people to buy buy buy. I definetly can see that being thier marketing stratagey with both GR and R6, console or otherwise.

This is the most sad thing with these games today. They're so concerned with the money, which is understandable for the suits, that the whole game concept is jeapordized. Innovation is squashed and games that devs may even want to make are not being made because only games that UBI or whoever thinks they can sell are being made. That's why there's only a 4 man team and you only control one. The overall GRAW PC concept is a direct result of the GRAW x360 concept which is a result of GR2 concept. 4man, you control the "hero." While it does have merits as far as a game goes, you can see where the limitations arise. Only a few companies exist with the luxury to develop how they see fit. Valve, etc.

I think with GRiN it's a complex situation compounded by the game market being such big business now. GRiN provides a lot of info but has also left some holes that perhaps they aren't even allowed to explain for NDAs or whatever. I'm really impressed by a lot of things GRiN did, but baffled by others.

Anyway, it just seems like there are a lot of frustrated GR gamers and modders, few answers, lots of "rationalizing the situation," but not many results.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Brettzies

[Papa6]

I remember way back when GRAW was "JUST" released, hell my CD's even had that new smell to them, that someone here posted how their was an editor in the game to a certain degree. the quote below was a snapshot of th etopic of that thread. Notice the highlighted section. That was originally set to FALSE because there were NO tools or editor per se'. I think what happened was when this was exposed, GRIN got caught up in a wirlwind and mayeb, just maybe felt or ubi felt they had to deliver. But the editing of xml this and xml that, seems quite confusing. plus, from my point of view, i have no clue in hell as to how i go about doing that vertice painting. but limits in my personal life demand that modding be feasible within reason. I don't expect anything to be handed to me. But i do expect that it be in terms that most can understand.

<script base="data" exec="levels/editor/editor" editor="true" enforce_texture_sets="false" override_allow_autoload="true"/>

Edited December 12, 2006 by Papa6

[RavenousNC]

I don't expect anything to be handed to me. But i do expect that it be in terms that most can understand.

Exactly, Papa6!

And we have a right to expect thorough testing before delivery. Why should we be the guinea pigs, or pay our hard earned cash to become beta testers?

Rav

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

I don't expect anything to be handed to me. But i do expect that it be in terms that most can understand.

Exactly, Papa6!

And we have a right to expect thorough testing before delivery. Why should we be the guinea pigs, or pay our hard earned cash to become beta testers?

Rav

Once again. You buy what UBI Soft, the owner of the Ghpst Recon brand, has said is an ok product. If their testers hadn't approved it, GRiN would have been told to fix the issues they had with the game or it would've been cancelled. That is how the gaming industry works. In this case we have one less actor then in others as the IP owner and the publisher is the same company. Usually the publisher doesn't decide if a product made by the developer is up to quality according to the IP. That is decided by the IP owners. But on the other hand there is another actor here, Red Storm, who are the main designers of the game and the company given the job to design the product, even though GRiN was given the opportunity to adjust this design slightly for the PC.

If I take the BioWare project I was part of as an example.

Atari is the publisher of all electronic D&D products.

Wizards of the Cost is the owner of the D&D IP.

BioWare Corp. is the developer of the product, and the designers.

BioWare gets the guidelines they have to stick to.

BioWare makes a design draft of what they want to do with the game, to Atari.

WotC has to approve the idéa and/or make adjustments so that it works in the way they want to take their IP.

Atari has to approve the idéa so that it follows the guidelines they want to take within their contract with WotC.

BioWare produces the product and each milestone/deadline has to be approved by both companies above of the development stops.

Final milestone/deadline is the same.

If after the final milestone/deadline, Atari and WotC approve the product it is released.

Then comes the patches, which once again have to be approved by both Atari and WotC to be released.

As you can see the developer really can't do what they want if they want to get payed, which they do after each milestone/deadline is approved.

[Brettzies]

Once again. ...

[stuff written]

...As you can see the developer really can't do what they want if they want to get payed, which they do after each milestone/deadline is approved.

I don't think we need an explanation of red tape, but thanks. This is what I mean by rationalizing the situation and it solves nothing. It's like saying, "the aiming is controlled in the animation." Oh boy, thanks for the hot tip!

GRIN - Why is it there is no indepth information about how these things work?

Why is it that we have to depend on forums and a select few die-hards to get information on how things work, when we should be getting such info from you?

You'll have to excuse me, but my time is very valuable too. We spend hours working on maps that not only give us new areas to play the game, but helps promote GRAW at the same time. Yet the help and information we need is hardly there.

I'm wore out, disappointed, and frustrated that, with this game & GRIN, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

This is the essence of the complaint, so I thought I'd re-quote it. It's not very complex, just someone pleading for some information. Modding takes a lot of time, so the more info available, the better. The more time you can spend on the creative parts and less on the technical parts which the devs have already solved, the better. It's just such a waste to spend hours debugging something that someone (who visits the boards frequently) might have the answer to. It's easy for GRiN to take certain info for granted because it's their tools, they have in depth knowledge of how it works.

I don't know what the deal is with the all this lack of info or support and I don't really care about Atari or the chain of command. The game is good, but it could be even better the less hurdles and hoops that modders have to go through.

Either support modding or don't. The person who wrote about UT2k4 was right. A whole dvd with all the info you need to do practically anything you want. I don't think we need quite that much for GRAW, but given how frustrated people are something seems to be lacking.

[GRIN_Wolfsong]

Either support modding or don't.

Well then you have nothing to wonder about. GR:AW, as per specifics, doesn't support modding.

Everything you've gotten that enables some modding is just bonus.

[Papa6]

Either support modding or don't.

Well then you have nothing to wonder about. GR:AW, as per specifics, doesn't support modding.

Everything you've gotten that enables some modding is just bonus.

I'm under the impression that Modding is Regressing. With Doom2, I first experienced modding by playing a level designed by a guy in the marine corps. It was a hit. That i think was the launch pad for this modding bonanza back in the mid 90's.

\\Then you get a long list of titles that allowed for user made mods, maps etc.\\

after many games and years of having games come with mod tools and tutorials became the norm. But with GRAW, I'm not saying you meant this wolfsong but, it would appear that, for whatever reason, GRIN/UBISOFT didn't intend for GRAW to be moddable. but why? alot of the gaming community CAME FROM modders. Modders have gotten jobs at some of these companies because of their work.

another issue i remember was, someone tried telling me that games are getting too difficult to mod due to the game technology making it harder to mod games. That i don't believe. With GRAW I'd say alot of this modding anger is directed at GRIN/UBI's lack of real support. as the old saying was for me, the six "P's" weren't in effect for GRAW and GRAW modding, " Prior Planning Prevents ###### Poor Performance".

But not all of us are high tecnnically inclined and if games are just that difficult then don't bother with mod tools. But include a statement like, "no mod tools to be included".

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I remember way back when GRAW was "JUST" released, hell my CD's even had that new smell to them, that someone here posted how their was an editor in the game to a certain degree. the quote below was a snapshot of th etopic of that thread. Notice the highlighted section. That was originally set to FALSE because there were NO tools or editor per se'. I think what happened was when this was exposed, GRIN got caught up in a wirlwind and mayeb, just maybe felt or ubi felt they had to deliver. But the editing of xml this and xml that, seems quite confusing. plus, from my point of view, i have no clue in hell as to how i go about doing that vertice painting. but limits in my personal life demand that modding be feasible within reason. I don't expect anything to be handed to me. But i do expect that it be in terms that most can understand.

<script base="data" exec="levels/editor/editor" editor="true" enforce_texture_sets="false" override_allow_autoload="true"/>

So basically you want a sandbox editor?

Most modding now adays besides simple maps with no user created content have to be scripted.