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Please don't "Rainbow Six" GRAW2


WarlikeFlea
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Ubi's Rainbow Six Vegas Forum

I know that they are two different games and they are being developed by two different divisions, but they are both coming from UBI. I'm not sure if the developers bother to lurk over on the Ubi Rainbow Six forum, but it's quite eye opening. Yes, there they have their share of unwarranted crying, but there are some very well described problems and concerns with that game.

Is there any plan to use the "Cover" system or one like it for GRAW2?

Is the PEC 2 custom character creator or something similar going to be available?

Is there going to be A LOT of "locked" content like Rainbow Six Vegas????

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Uh, that Vegas cover system was taken from GRAW. GRAW2 is obviously going to have it again.

Uh, it wasn't in Multiplayer! I guess I should have clarified that. In Single Player story mode I could care less, but it shouldn't be in Multiplayer. You could not hug up against a wall in Multiplayer. You could only peek around the corner.

Edited by WarlikeFlea
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Uh, it wasn't in Multiplayer! I guess I should have clarified that. In Single Player story mode I could care less, but it shouldn't be in Multiplayer. You could not hug up against a wall in Multiplayer. You could only peek around the corner.

You're right. But, considering the success of Gears of War and Vegas' cover based multiplayer modes, I really would not be surprised if GRAW2 360's mp included the sp cover system.

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Cover system ----> campfest ----> no fun.

In real life, you cannot get a bird's eye view over obstacles you are taking cover under, no matter what innovative camera system you are using. So, why include such a feature in a tactical simulation shooter? :huh:

I will say this; if they include the cover system in multiplayer, they had better fix the glitches present with the system in RS Vegas.

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Cover system ----> campfest ----> no fun.

You know, I used to think that was true, but not any more.

Since GRAW has OTS anyhow I don't think the cover mode does that much. I think as long as they maintain:

Weapon Balance from sniper to rifleman

A one hit kill system. and

A more mature game (siege, lobby, war to participate in, et. al.)

...GRAW 2 will be fine with cover.

HERE IS MY THEORIE THOUGH

GRAW cannot compete with Christmas gaming season. There is such a pull for juvenile friendly games like Halo 2, Gears of War, etc. that GRAW is better released AFTER the Christmas Season is over.

This is why GRAW was released in March of last year...more time to finish AND a marketing play to avoid competition with other games at that time, like Perfect Dark Zero for example.

It seems to me that Rainbow, with the younger run-and-gun crowd, is Ubi's holiday military shooter that can be tweakes somewhat for mature gamers.

....while GRAW is their staple mature gamer platform that can be tweaked for the run and gun crowd.

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Cover system ----> campfest ----> no fun.

In real life, you cannot get a bird's eye view over obstacles you are taking cover under, no matter what innovative camera system you are using. So, why include such a feature in a tactical simulation shooter? :huh:

I will say this; if they include the cover system in multiplayer, they had better fix the glitches present with the system in RS Vegas.

Wait, isn't this a GRAW forum? An entirely 3rd person game?

...and a patch is on the way.

Vegas is in no way a "campfest" although I read that a lot. Compared to some shooters it's slow, just like GRAW, but that's a good thing IMO.

I see no "maturity" difference in GRAW and Rainbow, it's just different forms of combat.

Edited by Raw Kryptonite
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Gears Of War is a 3rd person "shooter". SHOOTER being the key word. There really aren't any tactics applied. Not in the way GRAW or Rainbow would be used.

This guy does a great job of explaining the problems.

TPV Problem

Here is his propsed fix.

TPV FIX

Have you even actually played GoW? It's much more than just a shooter, especially if you try it at the higher difficulties.

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Gears is actually a tactical horror shooter, but I guess that's splitting hairs. :P

And Juvenile? I know a lot of gow players (and some people who worked on gow) and I wouldn't say many of them are 14 year olds. An awful lot more mature than many of the posters around here, infact.

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GRAW cannot compete with Christmas gaming season.

It could, but why it should. It is not done yet, anyway.

It seems to me that Rainbow, with the younger run-and-gun crowd,

NO. RB6 is a tactical shooter. GR is an open field spec-ops game, while RB6 is a cqb. They both intermix sometimes due to the nature of operations, of course.

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graw and rainbow can/should be at any time during the year since those games arent exactly the stocking stuffer type games older family members buy as gifts for the younger gamers. Not only that buy mid-year release turns the games into "event" releases during the year...

in regards to cover mode:

I sincerely hope the cover mode from rainbow finds its way to the ghost series since it gives the player even more options when engaging an enemy. Still i do agree that the cover system needs adjusting. The possible solution the link provides is an acceptable fix. The main point any adjustment must make is to negate the camera peeking the current system allows. Any peeks around the corner should endanger the player (just not to the extent on the original graw)

for the record a cover system wont turn graw into rainbow six....so quit worrying.

-for one ghost recon is open field combat, so as long as the devs. focus on establishing that point in the design then the series will remain unique.

this means:

-make large maps that accentuate the outdoor settings, to include weather, changes in terrain and elevation.

-large open combat means large battles with powerful hardware.. graw understood this very well which is why bradleys and abrams tanks were in the story mode.

-ghost recon is about long range combat, rainbow is not....i hate the fact that crappy submachine guns are killing assault rifle players in rainbow....ghost recon sure as hell wont allow this.

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My concerns were specific. I think the current cover system in Rainbow Multiplayer is flawed. I agree that it needs to be tweaked to something similar to that listed in the link I provided. There should be a risk to "peeking" out and you should NOT have "full" view around what your hiding behind. GRAW is a third person view, so I already expected a similar cover to that of Rainbow since it already existed in the single player version of GRAW, but hopefully not as flawed. I was just trying to make light of the concerns the Rainbow players had and hoped that the GRAW2 group would look at it for ideas.

I like the PEC character generator and hope it's in GRAW2. What I don't like about Rainbow is that 90% off all the head gear doesn't work with a custom character face (vision camera option). You can't even wear the tank top or t-shirt. Aside from a basic set a fatigues EVERYTHING else is LOCKED content. I haven't counted them all, but I'd guess 50% of the guns are locked too. The more "online" games you play and experience points you get for playing and the more you unlock. Now this is NOT "ranked" games. They CAN be ranked, but it's not a must. As you gain experience you gain rank (in the game) and unlock content. This is complete BS. How would you have felt if when you bought GRAW 50% of the guns were "locked" and couldn't be used until you played it 8 hours a for 4 or 5 weeks and even then they weren't all unlocked????

I thought and still feel that this was done to get more player time on Xbox Live. I thought that there was some kind of "pay for play" thing going on. Kinda like what websites do for hits on a site. UBI gets paid $$$$ for X number of hours their games are played or something like that. Then I found this post on the Rainbow site. Please read the whole thing. Massive

I'm not terribly concerned with what others are saying about this software, but it somewhat confirms my suspicions as to why they had so much locked content and why you'd have to spend hundreds of hours playing to unlock content that should have been part of the game already. Are they uploading static images to the game (like the AXE ad) and tracking how many players viewed the ad and for how long and then getting advertising $$$$??? I'd rather see a Coke ad or AXE ad than some generic crap , but I don't agree with being forced to play all of these hours to unlock content that should have been available just so they can make even more $$$$.

This is what I meant by "Don't Rainbow Six Graw2"!

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My concerns were specific. I think the current cover system.......I'd rather see a Coke ad or AXE ad than some generic crap , but I don't agree with being forced to play all of these hours to unlock content that should have been available just so they can make even more $$$$.

This is what I meant by "Don't Rainbow Six Graw2"!

I think I can address these concerns.

The second item under Vegas lists what is locked. Click on the Summary of Rank file.

http://www.ick.bz/weapons-lists.html

There are 27 non-pistol weapons. Of these only 4 are locked.

As you can see these weapons are locked:

2 rifles --->MP7A1 and SIG552 you get almost right away. These weapons are no big deal.

2 rifles --->After a good 7 to 10 hours of play you earn the AK-47 and SV98. These are no big deal.

Pistols

Pretty early on you get the USP40 pisol too. This is also no big deal.

After the 7 to 10 hours you get the raging bull pistol. This is sweet, but really not a big game effect.

Much much later you earn the desert eagle pistol. I am told this is not a big game effect either.

Everything else you earn is all grapic beauty only.

---> The armor earned is simply visual in nature, it doesn't give you any advangage over what you get as an option the first time you play.

--->the camo patterns are nice, but they really have no game effect. It is not like you earn a ghille suit that can be used on a heavily wooded map or something.

--->It seems to me that this whole clothing, helmets, hats, cool armor, night vision goggles graphics is all about you havving a "look" to your guy that you like. Nothing more.

--->The one thing that these grapical things create is a certain badge of honor. If you are in a room and you see a guy that really has some style with his character....YOU want to rank up all the more to improve your outfit and develop your own "cool" character.

--->This doesn't seem to have changed the level of boosting, etc......except that people boost for graphical beauty instead of boosting to be able to kick your ass with a weapon you can't seem to unlock.

Having said all of that:

The ranking system in this game is the best I have ever had the pleasure to play.

I would say that this ranking system has IMPROVED my game experience. It increases my desire to play big time.

Edited by Ick
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50% of weapons locked? Apparently Flea hasn't played Vegas or even read much about it.

IMO, in Rainbow, the best equipment is not locked at all. I still use the guns that you have from the start and camo. Armor differences are cosmetic only, you start with light, med and heavy armor. Like Ick said, almost all weapons are available from the start. I have unlocked them and I still use the original weapons. There's no real advantage to be gained in unlocking the others.

Ranking: well, I'd be just fine with everything being unlocked, but as it is--no advantage due to rank--I'm fine with it. It's not like Lockdown/Critical Hour where glitchers ranked up and had access to all kinds of advantages.

I don't understand the negativity towards Vegas. I've always felt GR and Rainbow were two sides of the same coin--just different types of combat. IMO, if GRAW 2 combines GRAW & Vegas it would be a great idea. They've both got very nice touches to them.

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50% of weapons locked? Apparently Flea hasn't played Vegas or even read much about it.

IMO, in Rainbow, the best equipment is not locked at all. I still use the guns that you have from the start and camo. Armor differences are cosmetic only, you start with light, med and heavy armor. Like Ick said, almost all weapons are available from the start. I have unlocked them and I still use the original weapons. There's no real advantage to be gained in unlocking the others.

Ranking: well, I'd be just fine with everything being unlocked, but as it is--no advantage due to rank--I'm fine with it. It's not like Lockdown/Critical Hour where glitchers ranked up and had access to all kinds of advantages.

I don't understand the negativity towards Vegas. I've always felt GR and Rainbow were two sides of the same coin--just different types of combat. IMO, if GRAW 2 combines GRAW & Vegas it would be a great idea. They've both got very nice touches to them.

My bad, there are two other weapons that you unlock in the higher ranks:

MG36 Light Macine Gun and the SPAS12 Shotgun. These weapons are of no consequence either.

So the total number of unlocable non-pistols is 6 and they don't affect gameplay.

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Ok, my bad too on the % of locked guns. Sure felt like 50%! I know I'm not wrong with the rest of the locked content.

I have too played the game quite a bit. I unlocked my Captain rank last night. :hehe:

I'm not trying to debate this. I agree that Rainbow and GRAW are two different sides of a coin and that is why I said "Don't Rainbow Six GRAW2".

You all make the same point about the locked content. It gives you absolutely zero advantage, so WHY LOCK IT??? Want a badge of honor???? Then try using your military rank! Keep the rank system like it is, but DON'T TIE LOCKED CONTENT TO IT! I could give a rats azz if I stayed Private 2nd Class forever as long as I had all the content. Forcing me to play hundreds of hours to unlock content is just BS.

Edited by WarlikeFlea
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It's psychological, and it just plain works. ;)

Why do people care about gamer points? I have no idea. There's no benefit whatsoever. However, it works to keep many people playing games--and a wider variety of games--just to get those intangible points. Same here, but there's a reward system in place--but not something to reward glitchers with an advantage for getting ranked up. I think it's a good system, otherwise we might not even HAVE the various armor/camo options. I wish GRAW would adopt it so that we could have those options. To me, starting with a lot of options and ranking up to get even more options is better than the very few that GRAW offered--with no chance of more to come.

Just depends on how you look at it I guess.

Congrats on Capt, btw. I hit master sgt the other night and I can tell I'm going to be there for quite a while.

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Ok, my bad too on the % of locked guns. Sure felt like 50%! I know I'm not wrong with the rest of the locked content.................Forcing me to play hundreds of hours to unlock content is just BS.

I definately see your point.

I felt exactly the same way with gamer points when they announced it about X360. For quite some time it didn't bother me if I got points or didn't. To a certain point this is still true. Of course gamer points don't "unlock" anytyhing.

Just as I enjoy completely trouncing a game and beating all the levels on the hardest setting...I now find myself enjoying getting the gamer points. Granted, I don't spend hours going after a point in a game I don't like...but it actually helps me enjoy the game more.

For example, I never would have messed around with the bolt action rifle in COD3 had it not been for the "complete mission using the bolt action ony." The achievement helped me to find a way to enjoy the game in a different way.

Similarly, the increasing rank that everyone in the room can see adds to the intangible reward.

Furthermore, the enjoyment I get from figuring out how to get past the "alter of death" puzzle in Laura Croft is the same satisfaction I get when I rank up and earn "urban camo".

Give it a chance, I suspect the same thing that draws you to a challenging but dooable experience in video games will convert into enjoyment from ranking up rewards like this....even though the effect in game is immaterial..

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It's psychological, and it just plain works.

Yes it is, but that psychology works different at different age groups. At 41 (in Jan) my time with my family and such is worth more than hundreds of hours with a game. If I were a teenager again or single or unemployed with a ton of time on my hands I probably wouldn't think much of this. I've already been given the "stink-eye" and cold shoulder from the wife a few times due to all the time I've spent with this game so far. I would have prefered having the content "unlocked". I like the rank idea being tied to time played/experience instead of ranked games. That is your bragging rights. I'm sure with that will come gamer points which again gives you bragging rights with your buddies. Again, this is different than locked content. If I don't play much and all my buddies are Sergeants or Captains or whatever and I'm in the lobby with my crummy little Private badge then so be it. But, having to run around with simple camo just because I have a different priority just doesn't seem right. I paid the same amount for the game that you did. I'd like to outfit my character as much as anyone else.

At least offer an unlock patch in the Marketplace. I know many don't like this, because its more money, but my time is worth that to me. EA did it with the last Tiger Woods golf. I played the hell out of that game in '06 and unlocked everything. I did this, because I enjoy playing the game not because I felt a challenge to unlock content, so when the new one ('07) came out it was more like "been there, done that". I grabbed the unlock patch off marketplace and I was enjoying the ENTIRE game from day one. I still played it as much as I would have if the content was still locked, but I enjoyed it more, because I now had all the clubs, clothing, courses and all that available to me. It was worth it and it left the game locked for those who wanted the challenge of unlocking the content. My bragging rights are my gamer points for levels of completion in the game and owning my buddies when we play.

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@ WarlikeFlea - Thing is, for many people the single player experience is king and they do not care for MP, so once the SP part of the game you love has been completed things can get a little stale, unlike MP which can differ from one game to the next. So what do you do with a game for SP to keep them interested, to keep them playing it time after time? This is where the locked content comes in to play, it gives you something else to consider, not just that you should complete the game as quickly as possible and then move on to your next SP experience.

And like you, I've a family and a job, which means I can not spend as much time on line as I used to be able to do years ago, but still this locked feature will keep someone like me who plays 90% MP and 10% SP going back for more just so I can eventually say "I've done it!!".

Either way, RavenShield imo is a very good game, as is GR:AW and I'm impressed with both as a console game goes, and imo they both certainly beat anything on the PC that has been released for sometime, that's for sure.

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A perfect example of a ranking/rewarding system that is like a drug is in Battlefield 2142. In that game everything is locked except for the base kits. Even grenades must be unlocked. This is a pretty dumb idea but once a person goes for one unlock said person needs another one. Soon the person unlocks one gun and needs another. Throw this in with all the other ranking stuff and its addictive. Its just what all the big game companies want from you. they want you addicted so that you play forever and always come back for more. Basically any crazy outlandish idea added to a game is from the publisher who wants money money and more money. You would too if you owned a huge game publishing company.

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