Quality of the M9?

[El_Davido]

We all make mistakes.

Im more "hands on" now

Good to hear, and also that your hands and the rest of you are ok.

[FA sear]

Back to the original topic,

Irregardless of what this guy says, i know what sidearm my unit carries. The 9mm is just as effective, i would like somene to prove me wrong, take your 9mm, go out and shoot someone, then take your 45 and go out and shoot someone...

oh wait you cant. all you know is numbers and how it hits steel, ive seen a guy walk away from 6 5.56 wounds.

balistics is a very.... delicate discussion, and unless you have experience in the field of killing people, you only know what the books say, which isnt enough to make a accurate statement about 9mm vs .45.

therefore, i encourage you all to go Army, HOOAH!

no but really, adrenaline, courage, whatever you want to call it is kevlar in itself, it has a great effect on whether or not the round is effective(speaking from my own experiences), of course you go high enough up in caliber it doesnt matter how much armor or adrenaline, or khat they have, they are gonna die.

Your point about book knowledge is absolutely true. It is much the same as EPA est. for fuel economy compared to actual gas mileage numbers. That is why I don't form my opinions from books. I posted what Hackworth said because for starters he does have experience. Also, I cannot record everything I have heard from actual people who have "been there".

However, in the last company I worked for there was a client who had a son who was a Marine in Iraq, and he often shared his letters. I finally found the thing on my hard drive, and here is a copy of it. Much of what is in there mirrors what I have heard directly from people who have "been there".

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and

interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my

son Jordan, who was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He

is well (a little thin), and already bored. He will be returning to

Iraq for a second tour in early '06 and has already re-enlisted early

for 4 more years. He loves the Marine Corps and is actually looking

forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at "Camp Blue Diamond" in Ramadi. Aka: Fort

Apache. He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me

about weapons, equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which

may be of interest to you. Nothing is by any means classified. No

politics here, just a Marine with a bird's eye view's opinions:

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the

talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan

says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4

carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but

it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the

various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails,

but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all

hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock

structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably

counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead

insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light

machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ######.

Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly.

(that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert

environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns

for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm:

Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for

clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun,

developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that

was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em

down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more

are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62

round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is

still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight

stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted

weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there.

Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands

on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down

with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the

pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old

government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a

modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include

lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very

reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range

and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take

out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and

barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300

win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers

have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine

sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded

Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs.

and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will

stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as ###### to wear, almost

unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also,

the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the ######

about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was

a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't

make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular

performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very

little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being

whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all

seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights

are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban

operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and

loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and

ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology,

it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The

infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is

given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47's . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in

the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM

belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily,

the enemy mostly shoots like ######. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type

fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons,

especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have

apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they

fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans

rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters

combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys.

Simple, reliable and as common as dog######. The enemy responded to our

up-armored humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank

range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet

anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in

Jordan's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3

155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by

cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any

vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing

our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated

"shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor.

Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran, who is also

providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in

their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly

lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being

shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the

cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before

they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets

(with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan's

NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside

the wire". Jordan's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by

mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and

cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything

else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few

rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by

cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use

handheld GPS units for navigation and "Google earth" for overhead

views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and

prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE.

Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and

the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when

captured.

Who are the bad guys?:

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They

operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are

mostly "foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the

Muslim world (and Europe). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of

course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then

travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the

Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months.

Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as

suicide bombers or in "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core

terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas

etc.) These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse

and cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are

supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been

fighting the Russians for years). In the Baghdad area and south, most

of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The

Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local

govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. The have had a massive spy

and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's.

Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked

every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very

common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally

sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming

and firing Ak's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the

defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and

M240 above). Jordan's base was hit like this often. When engaged, they

have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they

think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and

that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are

referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room). We have

the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's,

mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy.

When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130

Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire,

especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all.

Fun fact: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand.

That is why we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED,

suicide bomber ######. The new strategy is simple: attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian

non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian

casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques

are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and

ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard

whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and

murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the

Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members

(especially children) is common to influence people they are trying to

influence but cant reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics,

tribal leaders, etc.).

The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know

that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet.

Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live

American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise

don't give a ###### about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were

actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such,

for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqi's are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a

######. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but

they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of

suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a

serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber

of recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along with

their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel

because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against

civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only

believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They

are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom

they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters

are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate

of 20-1 and then see ###### like "Are we losing in Iraq" on TV and the

print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their

equipment, food and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say

this, there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through

the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough

troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The

Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the thought of Iraq being an

American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).

Anyway guys, that's it, hope you found it interesting, I sure did.

Now of course Marcinko you may simply be a better shot than most, and I am not saying that in a sarcastic manner. Some people just have a better ability to make the "shots that count". Your experience may be different from that of others in the field, but the general opinions of people that serve which I hear directly mirrors what I read above, so my opinions are based on what I hear from them.

Again, your experience my be different, and maybe it is on account of your better abilities etc... I just cannot discount what I have directly heard from many who have "been there".

[EricJ]

[

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the

talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan

says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4

carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but

it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the

various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails,

but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all

hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock

structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably

counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead

insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

Tell him to maintain his freakin weapon, or get better mags. Or lighten up on the CLP so it wont' jam, the Technical Manual specifies only a few drops as opposed to soaking the weapon in a desert environment. It works because I spent my year doing that and most of the jams I had were mag related. The only other "malfunction" I had was a piece of brass somehow ended up in the chamber, and that thanfully was on a range. I'd sleep with my M4 or marry it. The 5.56 yeah... it sucks.

2) The M249 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light

machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ######.

Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly.

(that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

Same as above, proper maintenance and care makes any weapon work. Granted the drums are something least desired, use the 100 round beanie bags. The Scouts I loaned my team's 249 out to loved it, And they had no issues whatsoever.

Now of course Marcinko you may simply be a better shot than most, and I am not saying that in a sarcastic manner. Some people just have a better ability to make the "shots that count". Your experience may be different from that of others in the field, but the general opinions of people that serve which I hear directly mirrors what I read above, so my opinions are based on what I hear from them.

Again, your experience my be different, and maybe it is on account of your better abilities etc... I just cannot discount what I have directly heard from many who have "been there".

Oh and he's the only one who's been over there?

[FA sear]

name='EricJ' date='Feb 11 2007, 07:41 AM' post='449657']

Tell him to maintain his freakin weapon, or get better mags. Or lighten up on the CLP so it wont' jam, the Technical Manual specifies only a few drops as opposed to soaking the weapon in a desert environment. It works because I spent my year doing that and most of the jams I had were mag related. The only other "malfunction" I had was a piece of brass somehow ended up in the chamber, and that thanfully was on a range. I'd sleep with my M4 or marry it. The 5.56 yeah... it sucks.

Yes, if you maintain an M4 religiously it will fire very reliably, but it sill does not negate the fact that the gun is still less reliable than something more like an M14, FAL, G3, etc... It is a fact that direct gas system will result in a "dirtier weapon".

Same as above, proper maintenance and care makes any weapon work. Granted the drums are something least desired, use the 100 round beanie bags. The Scouts I loaned my team's 249 out to loved it, And they had no issues whatsoever.

Hatchetforce brought up the issue of the 249 once before, and he did also mention that at one point there were some parts that were being supplied by a less than quality producing supplier.

Oh and he's the only one who's been over there?

It was only a post in regard to a statement made about Hackworth. Of course there are others that have served.

Edited February 11, 2007 by jchung

[Marcinko]

The thing is, he takes those weapons to the range, and fires them at steel, paper, everything that doesnt move and shoot back.

The only weapon he may have fired in combat is his m9, or m16 family weapons, given his rank, i highly doubt he has been in enough engagements to fire all those weapons at badguys.

If the leg units and marine units priority was training overseas and back home, these types of issues wouldnt occur, i see time and time again some complacent ###### lookin around with his hands off his weapon as he is moving tactically down the street.

Theres nothing "religous" about putting some clp on my bolt and cleaning it, throughly after every outing. no weapon i have fired has ever gone down due to issues with the weapon, i have had more double feeds and such from magazine issues than weapon.

however, there is absolutly nothing wrong with training religously, go to the range and do ready ups on a e-type and aim for the high 5, enough rounds will permit what the military likes to call "muscle memory", your comp-m, eotech, acog, peq-2, whatever the hell optic you are using, will come almost instantly to the intended target area, and you will have breathing, stepping, squeezing, everything down pat. if people would take the time to train on these things instead of calling home to mommy or watching season 4 of 24, the "issues" with these weapons would magically disappear.

[El_Davido]

When I was using the M16 Ive only ever had one jam. I think Ive jammed maybe twice with the M4 but I use it more cause im in Special Forces. The M9 Ive never had a problem with, or the M249. Pretty sweet. My only real problem comes from punkbuster, cause that is poo.

[Marcinko]

Id say the real problem lies in your innability to commit and do the real thing.

[El_Davido]

Im telling you man, AA is like the real thing. Thats what all the people on the forums say.

[FA sear]

if people would take the time to train on these things instead of calling home to mommy or watching season 4 of 24, the "issues" with these weapons would magically disappear.

Well Marcinko, you have "been there and done that", so you can make a statement like this. To be honest this is something that has crossed my mind, and HF has said something similar, although he seemed to kind of hint at it more than say it directly. Although I am glad you did just come out and say it.

I just am not in a position to say anything like what you said as I have not "been there". Over the years I may have shot more rounds than most people in service, but again, not in combat, so I'm not "qualified" to make the sort of statement you made.

I just hear a lot of complaints from people coming back from Iraq, and so for me I can only see two things being the factor; #1 the gun just stinks, #2 a bit more care is all that is needed.

Obviously I have never been in combat, but when I do take an M16/M4 to an mg shoot that is pretty much what I do to. Of course we are shooting a lot of rounds in full auto so there is a lot of lube "cooking off", but every 400-500 rounds I pretty much wipe the carrier and bolt down, shoot a couple drops of white lithium grease or CLP on the rings and contact points and it always seems ready to go another round.

Now granted some gas piston guns like a Steyr Aug, AR18 or G3 shoot "cleaner", but the 30sec of "maintainence" is really not too much trouble.

Anyway, it is always good to get some insight from those in the field who do have the experience. Thanks for the input.

[EricJ]

The thing is, he takes those weapons to the range, and fires them at steel, paper, everything that doesnt move and shoot back.

The only weapon he may have fired in combat is his m9, or m16 family weapons, given his rank, i highly doubt he has been in enough engagements to fire all those weapons at badguys.

You mean me? If so Soldier, then while during my tour I showed alot of range pics and vids for sure, I didn't stop and take them while getting shot at, so if you want to play that game, I'm pretty sure I can find plenty of witnesses along with CAB orders to show I've done more than range shooting, nor should you question my integrity on that matter anyways, as I surely don't question yours. And if you think I care about Ranger tabs, get a clue, as I can and will come down Benning to smoke the crap out of you to think that I just talk out of my fourth point of contact in order to suck up to people on here. That tab doesn't change the fact you are in the US Army, and just another Soldier like any other, and I don't need a tab to have experience in combat, nor is there any special status accorded to Rangers according to one SFC I met down there who used to be Ranger, so at ease that noise. So if I'm in Benning next time, it's on and don't think I won't forget.

And who are you to judge in the first place Soldier? You of all people have more experience than all of us because of what? A tab? Get your nose out of the air and clear your mind guy, as the Ranger tab is that, a tab, and doesn't give you any special status you may think you get, nor the right to think because youre E-4 and below you know more than all of us roger? Bear in mind I got nine years in active duty, and you've got what? a year? maybe a year and a half at the most? There are plenty of Soldiers who've got more experience than both of us, and we probably both outrank them, so stick your neck out like that again, I'll chop it off, or your other dangling object, since you're obviously stepping on it right now.

And just because this is the internet doesn't mean I can't hunt your 1SG down and try to slam you for disrespect to an NCO, roger? And you're deployed? Yak it up and you're going to have longer days than normal, and I could give a crap who your first line is, as it all boils down to discipline, and you better correct yourself, understand?.

And last but not least, because I wear three chevrons doesn't mean I stand and let the junior enlisted suffer M'fer, you better get that straight real f'in quick. Ain't no way you are going to say because I'm a SGT I'm going to let the Soldiers go in first. I've cleared plenty of rooms by myself, and on the Scout Dismount team I acted just like Joe, because there wasn't any excuse for me to not do anything, got that? Because I will rip your soul out if you ever go to bed thinking I hid behind my rank to get the job done, because that's the role of an NCO, to make it happen, and I tell you what, if that still doesn't register, you tell me when you get back to Benning, and I'll take leave just to reduce you in rank, that's an f'in order. I never ever want to be thought of as someone who led from the rear because the Soldiers I know know that I don't just sit on my ass and don't do jack and I definitely don't go out of my way to steer them wrong. Matter of fact keep it up, and you'll take leave just so I can reduce you in rank, i.e. you come here m'fer, you clear on that Soldier?

SGT Eric Johnson

Edited February 14, 2007 by EricJ

[EricJ]

And as far as maintenance, yes, I was a little religious about cleaning it. I had to make sure it worked right? So I'd everyday mainly wipe down the exterior, optic, etc. and give a few dabs of CLP and every few days wipe down the chamber, so the majority of malfunctions were mag related, i.e. the bolt sticking on a round when loading a fresh mag, which would be easily solved by slapping the bottom and verifying the bolt rode forward, which requires a second to check. Stuff like that's important when you are in a firefight, i.e. crouched on a riverbank during contact dismounted or in a vehicle tearing up the countryside during an ambush while mounted. Or is this knowledge privy only to Rangers and SF? I think not as it doesn't matter what you do in the Army, getting shot at is getting shot at, and I am soooooo sorry I didn't take the time to take pictures while shooting, as making it home was more important than impressing anybody

Edited February 14, 2007 by EricJ

[FA sear]

And as far as maintenance, yes, I was a little religious about cleaning it. I had to make sure it worked right? So I'd everyday mainly wipe down the exterior, optic, etc. and give a few dabs of CLP and every few days wipe down the chamber, so the majority of malfunctions were mag related, i.e. the bolt sticking on a round when loading a fresh mag, which would be easily solved by slapping the bottom and verifying the bolt rode forward, which requires a second to check. Stuff like that's important when you are in a firefight, i.e. crouched on a riverbank during contact dismounted or in a vehicle tearing up the countryside during an ambush while mounted. Or is this knowledge privy only to Rangers and SF? I think not as it doesn't matter what you do in the Army, getting shot at is getting shot at, and I am soooooo sorry I didn't take the time to take pictures while shooting, as making it home was more important than impressing anybody

EricJ your input certainly IS appreciated, and again, as I said before I was only addressing Marcinko as he had responded directly to the letter I posted by Hackworth.

BTW, I don't think Marcinko meant any harm by what he said. From what I know of him on this forum he is generally very respectful of others and as you can see from my discussion with him, he did not resort to flaming etc... I think he may have just misunderstood who you were. Marcinko is a well respected member of this forum, and I really doubt that he would have posted anything intentionally to denegrate you in any manner.

Thanks for your service, and your input in this thread.

[Marcinko]

The thing is, he takes those weapons to the range, and fires them at steel, paper, everything that doesnt move and shoot back.

The only weapon he may have fired in combat is his m9, or m16 family weapons, given hisrank, i highly doubt he has been in enough engagements to fire all those weapons at badguys.

You mean me? If so Soldier, then while during my tour I showed alot of range pics and vids for sure, I didn't stop and take them while getting shot at, so if you want to play that game, I'm pretty sure I can find plenty of witnesses along with CAB orders to show I've done more than range shooting, nor should you question my integrity on that matter anyways, as I surely don't question yours. And if you think I care about Ranger tabs, get a clue, as I can and will come down Benning to smoke the crap out of you to think that I just talk out of my fourth point of contact in order to suck up to people on here. That tab doesn't change the fact you are in the US Army, and just another Soldier like any other, and I don't need a tab to have experience in combat, nor is there any special status accorded to Rangers according to one SFC I met down there who used to be Ranger, so at ease that noise. So if I'm in Benning next time, it's on and don't think I won't forget.

And who are you to judge in the first place Soldier? You of all people have more experience than all of us because of what? A tab? Get your nose out of the air and clear your mind guy, as the Ranger tab is that, a tab, and doesn't give you any special status you may think you get, nor the right to think because youre E-4 and below you know more than all of us roger? Bear in mind I got nine years in active duty, and you've got what? a year? maybe a year and a half at the most? There are plenty of Soldiers who've got more experience than both of us, and we probably both outrank them, so stick your neck out like that again, I'll chop it off, or your other dangling object, since you're obviously stepping on it right now.

And just because this is the internet doesn't mean I can't hunt your 1SG down and try to slam you for disrespect to an NCO, roger? And you're deployed? Yak it up and you're going to have longer days than normal, and I could give a crap who your first line is, as it all boils down to discipline, and you better correct yourself, understand?.

And last but not least, because I wear three chevrons doesn't mean I stand and let the junior enlisted suffer M'fer, you better get that straight real f'in quick. Ain't no way you are going to say because I'm a SGT I'm going to let the Soldiers go in first. I've cleared plenty of rooms by myself, and on the Scout Dismount team I acted just like Joe, because there wasn't any excuse for me to not do anything, got that? Because I will rip your soul out if you ever go to bed thinking I hid behind my rank to get the job done, because that's the role of an NCO, to make it happen, and I tell you what, if that still doesn't register, you tell me when you get back to Benning, and I'll take leave just to reduce you in rank, that's an f'in order. I never ever want to be thought of as someone who led from the rear because the Soldiers I know know that I don't just sit on my ass and don't do jack and I definitely don't go out of my way to steer them wrong. Matter of fact keep it up, and you'll take leave just so I can reduce you in rank, i.e. you come here m'fer, you clear on that Soldier?

SGT Eric Johnson

I was referring to the Marine, jchung was talking about, this isnt a dick measuring contest ######, its all to prove a point, i give a ###### how many "confirmed" kills you have, congrats, you have a cab, give me a ###### break.

I seriously cant believe you threatened to smoke me, grow the ###### up dude. disrespect to a NCO, give me a break, i will not stand for you attempting to embaress me when you miscontrued the stated facts to all extremities.

You think when we met up i was gonna stand at parade rest for you and call you sgt, its not even that retarted where im at.

You seriously owe me an apology.

I respect you for your 9 long years of service, your MOS is the most highly demanded MOS in the Army, you no doubt will go far, but instead off popping off at the mouth perhaps you shoulda just asked me who i was referring to, in your defense, i see how you can get upset, if i meant what i said as you interpreted it, but again, instead of gettin all pissy, and bent out of shape, wait for me to respond.

[WhiteKnight77]

Eric and Marcinko, this is a bit of a misunderstanding. Both of you need to chill out a bit. There is no need for a ###### contest over this. Both of you have been there and of course, done that. That will not change.

As long as there are I D ten T's in the military, there will be problems with weapons. Someone will not follow the recommended regimens to keep a weapon functioning properly. That is a fact. Those are the same people that will claim a weapon is crappy because of it.

Both of you need to apologize to each other for this as both of you share blame. Marcinko for not specifying he was referring to Hackwith and Eric for jumping to conclusions.

Both of you are respected for what you have done and where you have been. Both of you serve where others don't or for that matter wont (but we will not go there). Both of you are in the US Army and should remember that both of you are on the same team. No need for infighting. Right now, rank is of little consequence in this discussion.

[Marcinko]

Eric and Marcinko, this is a bit of a misunderstanding. Both of you need to chill out a bit. There is no need for a ###### contest over this. Both of you have been there and of course, done that. That will not change.

As long as there are I D ten T's in the military, there will be problems with weapons. Someone will not follow the recommended regimens to keep a weapon functioning properly. That is a fact. Those are the same people that will claim a weapon is crappy because of it.

Both of you need to apologize to each other for this as both of you share blame. Marcinko for not specifying he was referring to Hackwith and Eric for jumping to conclusions.

Both of you are respected for what you have done and where you have been. Both of you serve where others don't or for that matter wont (but we will not go there). Both of you are in the US Army and should remember that both of you are on the same team. No need for infighting. Right now, rank is of little consequence in this discussion.

Yea, your right, like i said, in his defense, i can understand how he must of felt thinking i meant that, i would have been peed off too, but in reverse circumstances, i would of waited to see who he was talking about, thats not cool, you, Eric, just typed a book of threats for nothing, we are the same rank, SAME TEAM, and i meant nothing derogative to you.

I do apologise, i should have been specific, i do have a habit of not doing that, my mind gets to wondering(ADHD) and i lose concentration, so on and so forth, but that is absolutly no reason for you to act the way you did.

EDIT: Just to clarify, i wasnt speaking in context of COL Hackwith, i dont disrespect higher ranking officers and NCOs contrary to popular belief, i was referring to the Marine Jchung commented on.

[pz3]

When I was using the M16 Ive only ever had one jam. I think Ive jammed maybe twice with the M4 but I use it more cause im in Special Forces. The M9 Ive never had a problem with, or the M249. Pretty sweet. My only real problem comes from punkbuster, cause that is poo.

No kiddin?!

IF AA were real life......

The M82 would be the worst weapon ever. Jams constantly, Takes 2 rounds to the head at times to kill meh.....

Eric and Marcinko, you guys freaked me out. Thought you both forgot how to read!

The ballistics discussion is interesting. I never shot a man before but I know there is more to it then just the velocity or size of the round.

plus working at gun shows and hearing swat team members talk about how effective the 5.7mm was on crack dealers. Gives you some better understanding. Understanding it is not effective lol.

same goes for 5.56, 9mm, .45acp. I have heard many stories of crazy people just running off when shot by these rounds.

its good to talk to people.

[Serellan]

i dont disrespect higher ranking officers and NCOs contrary to popular belief, i was referring to the Marine Jchung commented on.

Yeah! As long as you disrespect Marines, it's cool. Just don't **** with Army NCO's, they'll smoke you!

:)

Cool out dudes!

Locking is good when topics get SO off topic...

[Marcinko]

i dont disrespect higher ranking officers and NCOs contrary to popular belief, i was referring to the Marine Jchung commented on.

Yeah! As long as you disrespect Marines, it's cool. Just don't **** with Army NCO's, they'll smoke you!

:)

Cool out dudes!

Locking is good when topics get SO off topic...

Why do people jump in on the middle of a topic and run their mouth. I didnt disrespect the Marine in question, i contradicted him, you did the same thing Eric did, granted i didnt specify who i was talking about, i figured when i said "i doubt hes fired all those weapons in combat", when Erik said nothing about firing multiple weapons in combat, you could put two and two together and and figure out i was speaking in context of the Marine who had everything to say about everything.

I have been in the Army for a little over two years, i have wroked with many different people, people half of you only see pictures of and read fictional books about, i dont judge based on what someone posts in a video game forums.

you guys take stuff too personally, this is a topic on 9mm vs 45, IN A VIDEO GAME FORUM, stop making empty threats to smoke people, assuming i am a ass and a know it all, not did you just step on my toes, grow the hell up, and get back on topic.

[El_Davido]

IF AA were real life......

Are you saying AA isnt real life?

[dickie]

IF AA were real life......

Are you saying AA isnt real life?

Only if it stands for Alcoholics Anonymous...even then it's probably debatable for half the people there!

[FA sear]

get back on topic.

Now that all of that is cleared up, this sounds like a good idea. Yes, as Marcinko guessed Jordan is a pretty young kid. I don't remember exactly how young, but at this point my co-worker and I have both left the company, and he was not someone I really kept in contact outside of work, so I really could not find out at this time.

Regardless, opinions on the beretta and M4 as weapons systems are somewhat varied. They seem to be neither universally liked, or hated. Now as far as the caliber of the round goes, there seems to be a bit more consensus that a change in caliber would not be a bad idea.

I only agree with the caliber change as I can only apply what I know from hunting. The .223 is a round that is banned from being used against deer as it is considered inhumane to simply inflict pain with a round that cannot kill even small deer (unless you hit it directly in the heart or head). This is the main issue that has always kept me second guessing the use of the .223. The .223 is pretty much only used against varmit, and even many smaller animals that weigh even as little as 100lbs are considered too large to be shot with it.

Same thing goes for the sidearm that hunters carry in the event of an emergency when hunting dangerous game. The only automatic pistol rounds that people carry are 10mm and .45ACP, and in some cases .40S&W. 9mm and anything smaller is simply out of the question.

This is an age old debate and there are both supporter and critics on both sides of the issue. Anyway, it is good to get feedback from people with experience and from what I see here Marcinko does not mind the use of the current systems and the ammo, and EricJ seems to not mind the systems, but finds the ammo crappy.

With the all seeing investigative eye of ZJJ it is nice to know that at least I can trust the identities of the people on this forum.

[Marcinko]

People need to realise that just because the round is bigger doesnt mean that its better, more.. "stopping power"

I was told about a incident from a very reliable source that in a shoot out, his partner fired two shot in one perps face, and 3 in the other, only one died.

All 5 shots were .45 acp, hyrda-shock. Fact of the mattere is, the human body is amazing in the things you can put it through, i learned that through the various courses i have been through, done ###### i never knew was possible.

You get soo high up in pistol and rifle rounds you are obviously going to drop your target on site.

Personally, i will be buying a glock 21 here in the next couple months.

and as Eric stated, i have NEVER had issues with my primary weapon, ever, its all about education and weapons maintenence.

But if it were possible i would get a 7.62 rifle, 417, something along those lines.

[Whisper_44]

Cink.. check out the MP.45 in lieu of the G21. I liked it better.

[Sup]

As long as there are I D ten T's in the military, there will be problems with weapons. Someone will not follow the recommended regimens to keep a weapon functioning properly. That is a fact. Those are the same people that will claim a weapon is crappy because of it.

I really know very little about the issue, but this doesn't seem to be a valid defense.

Following common sense, if these are the weapons we're arming our forces with, and a large percent of them are 'I D ten T's', shouldn't we still be considering more idiot-proof weapons? I thought the goal was to make every soldier as effective as possible, not make the incompetent one's more obvious. If the m16 and m9 have enough problems that a lot of our soldiers can't keep them working properly (even if that isn't very many problems) I would presume there's cause to seek replacements.

[EricJ]

Yeah Marcinko my bad dude, it's been quite a long week so yes, I apologize.

But now that I've calmed down, yeah Sup, the ACR program decades ago was designed to replace the M16, but either Colt had a better lobby or it was too expensive to try and equip a new weapon. Even the M8 would have in some ways been preferable, but at least rechambering the weapon would at least solve the lethality issue.

Edited February 15, 2007 by EricJ