Peace Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 This is a topic I've struggle with for long: There is always inherent lag present in MP, even with excellent pings. Let me give you a few examples: Example 1 One stationary player (A) behind a building (knowing there is an enemy (B) soon to walk around the corner because of sound) One moving player (B) strafing around the corner, suspecting there could be an enemy there (A) In most instances the moving player (B) sees the enemy, opens up fire and wins (perhaps taking one hit himself) Normally, player (A) sees player (B) and virtually dies at the same moment (perhaps have time to squeeze off a round or two, but rarely wins) In [GR] the odds of the stationary player (A) winning was more equal if pings were good, as his aim was dead on and he could squeeze off as soon as a body part of player (B) became visible. Example 2 There are never "trades", i.e., both players die from each others regular gun shots when they run into each other (it could happen in [GR]). It seems as the final rounds that the loosing player squeeze off do not register even if it shows on the loosing clients screen. In GRAW, how many times haven't you basically emptied a mag in an opponent, but he didn't die, but you did? In GRAW, how many timed haven't you won the duel when your buddy you just shot on TS/Ventrillo swears and say "WHAT! how come you didn't die?" I believe there is a discrepancy often occurring between what is displayed on the your screen and what is transmitted via server and finally on to the opponent's client and screen (loss/block of packages?) Another example from a recent fun game: Example 3 I found an enemy against a wall about 100 meters away, and he sees me too. I had GL selected and fired a well aimed shell against the wall right behind him. At the same moment the opponent takes me out with regular gunfire when my grenade is in mid-flight. However, only I die, not the enemy. I had a guy on coms with me observing the guy who killed me and he said "What GL nade?" There was apparently no flight trajectory in the air, no visible impact and no sound of an explosion... This time, the grenade was apparently only displayed on my client, and never reach the server or the other clients. Comment. On this occasion there was a high-pinger on the server (like 400ms). On other occasions I have killed by GL or frag grenade "after I was shot".. When there is a high-pinger on the server, the whole game play often seem to collapse… Please GRINS, can something be done (server settings, netcode optimization etc)? Besides the infamous crash-to-desktop-GL-bug giving a false "altered gamefiles found" and dysfunctional A/C this is an important issue with this game, and I believe is causing a lot of MP players to quit. This inherent lag heavily favours run-n-gun style of gameplay in certain situations, especially if you have somewhat of a mediocre ping Otherwise my clan tries to match GRAW and it is still fun, but I believe it could be better... This was my rant for the day... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XLs Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Well said. It would be great if Grin could acknowledge such lag issues / and/or they are working on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCO*AFZ* Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 (edited) This is a topic I've struggle with for long: There is always inherent lag present in MP, even with excellent pings. Let me give you a few examples: Example 1 One stationary player (A) behind a building (knowing there is an enemy (B) soon to walk around the corner because of sound) One moving player (B) strafing around the corner, suspecting there could be an enemy there (A) In most instances the moving player (B) sees the enemy, opens up fire and wins (perhaps taking one hit himself) Normally, player (A) sees player (B) and virtually dies at the same moment (perhaps have time to squeeze off a round or two, but rarely wins) In [GR] the odds of the stationary player (A) winning was more equal if pings were good, as his aim was dead on and he could squeeze off as soon as a body part of player (B) became visible. Example 2 There are never "trades", i.e., both players die from each others regular gun shots when they run into each other (it could happen in [GR]). It seems as the final rounds that the loosing player squeeze off do not register even if it shows on the loosing clients screen. In GRAW, how many times haven't you basically emptied a mag in an opponent, but he didn't die, but you did? In GRAW, how many timed haven't you won the duel when your buddy you just shot on TS/Ventrillo swears and say "WHAT! how come you didn't die?" I believe there is a discrepancy often occurring between what is displayed on the your screen and what is transmitted via server and finally on to the opponent's client and screen (loss/block of packages?) Another example from a recent fun game: Example 3 I found an enemy against a wall about 100 meters away, and he sees me too. I had GL selected and fired a well aimed shell against the wall right behind him. At the same moment the opponent takes me out with regular gunfire when my grenade is in mid-flight. However, only I die, not the enemy. I had a guy on coms with me observing the guy who killed me and he said "What GL nade?" There was apparently no flight trajectory in the air, no visible impact and no sound of an explosion... This time, the grenade was apparently only displayed on my client, and never reach the server or the other clients. Comment. On this occasion there was a high-pinger on the server (like 400ms). On other occasions I have killed by GL or frag grenade "after I was shot".. When there is a high-pinger on the server, the whole game play often seem to collapse… Please GRINS, can something be done (server settings, netcode optimization etc)? Besides the infamous crash-to-desktop-GL-bug giving a false "altered gamefiles found" and dysfunctional A/C this is an important issue with this game, and I believe is causing a lot of MP players to quit. This inherent lag heavily favours run-n-gun style of gameplay in certain situations, especially if you have somewhat of a mediocre ping Otherwise my clan tries to match GRAW and it is still fun, but I believe it could be better... This was my rant for the day... Cheers Just a note to this... it seems to be whoever fires first win's unless that person runs out of ammo 1st. Prefire around a corner at an opponent and you will see. I do know they were stress testing some beta servers last week to see what load a small server would take. Hopefully that helped. Edited October 19, 2006 by ROCOAFZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted October 20, 2006 Author Share Posted October 20, 2006 Just a note to this... it seems to be whoever fires first win's unless that person runs out of ammo 1st. Prefire around a corner at an opponent and you will see. I do know they were stress testing some beta servers last week to see what load a small server would take. Hopefully that helped. Prefiring helps sometimes if you get the timing and aim right, so you aquire an early hit, but that is not the issue here... It's not who fires first that wins, it's naturally hits and where you hit that counts. The annoying issue is that it seems (speculation) as the last round(s) that are fired by the dying player, and displayed on the dying player's screen, never register as hits, even if they are dead on target. They seem to be blocked by the server. In [GR] for example the engine and the structure of netcode was obviously different. It allowed also those last round(s) fired to be registered as hits, thus both players could end up dead. I strongly believe its a better solution to let all rounds fired that are displayed on the local client to be valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bota:16 Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Not sure if this matters, but most online games the moving player seems to almost always have the advantage. I know this was a major "bug" with Ravenshield. If you were sitting in a corner and someone ran into the room having a general idea where you were at, you were a dead man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutlink Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 This happens in GRAW as well....on occasion, if you hear a guy running and you stop and crouch, as soon as he rounds the corner if you are in their line of sight, you're pretty much screwed. If you are at an angle though, you'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splitz Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 -Athenian' date='Oct 19 2006, 10:40 PM' post='429738'] Not sure if this matters, but most online games the moving player seems to almost always have the advantage. I know this was a major "bug" with Ravenshield. If you were sitting in a corner and someone ran into the room having a general idea where you were at, you were a dead man. Moving players should always get the ping benefit. Since the non-moving player's comp is waiting on the server to tell it where the moving player is at. By then, the moving player is looking at the non-moving player and shooting. Same in GR where I could stand up from behind an object and fire/kill before others could react. This is in all games. That said, GR did have mutual death by bullets. GRAW does not. Interesting coding, and yes, may include lag because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
th33f. Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 That said, GR did have mutual death by bullets. GRAW does not. Interesting coding, and yes, may include lag because of it. GR bullets flew about as fast as a slingshot can go, not even. you could track them all the way across maps, it was like watching train cars pass by ... they were slow! in addition to that, the sum of pings was contributing to the delay even more. if we're talking about an "interesting" design, GR takes the cake i'd say. you could sometimes hear a shot and the ding on the rock next to you almost a full second apart. lots of mutual, or even massively ridiculous deaths can fit into _that_ time frame. GRAW MP can get a little funny sometimes, but most of the time it's fair enough, to the point that when you're ambushed you can spot the direction of the shot almost instantly and find a safe spot. from there, it's about framerate and pings. i know i can play a lot better at 50 frames than i can at 40, and at 75 i'm unstoppable, but that's a luxury i won't be able to afford until next year... anyway, we should start seeing faster, cheaper, fiber-optic servers sometime soon, and as long as people's hardware is up to par, GRAW will only get more and more enjoyable. i just wish i had 5 grand for an SLI monsterbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightspeed Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCO*AFZ* Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. Support weapons in GR1 = bullet lag. It wasn't because of the netcode persay... it was the sound ( i found a server side mod once that made all oicw GL's and mm1 sound like m203 and all auto weapons like the mp5. No lag at all with support... but it sucked lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JASGripen Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. Probably because the sound is so much better in [GR] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCO*AFZ* Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. Probably because the sound is so much better in [GR] what sound card are you useing? GRAW has the best sound of any game i have every heard.... thinking you may need to up your onboard for an audigy as the sound is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted October 20, 2006 Author Share Posted October 20, 2006 I just want to bring forward another lag related problem (that ofcourse occurs in most FPS, not only GRAW). Often the animations of enemies are out of phase with their rounds fired and hit detection Example (which I believe most of you have experienced in GRAW (and [GR]), even with good FPS and good ping): You see somebody running in the open (and think you have an easy kill). Just when you are about to shoot the opponent, he/she stops and BANG! you are dead, shot by the same player you saw running. On your screen the opponent hasn't even brought his gun up from the barrel facing down-position (or the opponent isn't even facing your general direction) I'd believe there must be ways of programming today so that the packages transmitting hit detection is in phase with packets giving info on positioning etc, so the animations are in phase Or is there simply too much animations, so online MP gaming becomes problematic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACTF_ZETT Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 My members convinced me to run some tests on my graphics card (Gainward Nivida 6800GT) to increase performance. I slightly overclocked my card and increased the memory (I am new to this tweaking I think it was the card memory? That doesnt sound right, Ill clarify when I get home), and I saw a huge increase in performance. This drastically changed my gameplay. Everything looks the same, however the feel is completely different. I used to crank up the sound and wait for someone to walk around a corner, and somehow they would kill me first, even though I fired as soon as I first spotted them. Now, this still happens, but not nearly to the extent that it did before. It seems to have improved my "mouse to game" reaction time. Hard to explain but it definately changed the game for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JASGripen Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. Probably because the sound is so much better in [GR] what sound card are you useing? GRAW has the best sound of any game i have every heard.... thinking you may need to up your onboard for an audigy as the sound is awesome. I got a X-fi and my sound is as crisp as an autumn sky. My smilely indicated a stab at the sooo yesterday notion, which the cat keeps dragging in, that [GR] is better than GRAW (yes I am aGR player from start with lost of GR hour under my belt). No problems here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCO*AFZ* Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. Probably because the sound is so much better in [GR] what sound card are you useing? GRAW has the best sound of any game i have every heard.... thinking you may need to up your onboard for an audigy as the sound is awesome. I got a X-fi and my sound is as crisp as an autumn sky. My smilely indicated a stab at the sooo yesterday notion, which the cat keeps dragging in, that [GR] is better than GRAW (yes I am aGR player from start with lost of GR hour under my belt). No problems here! Ahh didn't catch your sarcasm. I had an audigy xgamer until about a month ago i got an x-fi... Very little (but some) difference between the 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bota:16 Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Yeah Desmond did an amazing job on the sounds for GRAW. By far the best of any game out there that I've played, mostly fps's. Though those are the only games that really count Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
th33f. Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. you must've never played on a private server then? i doubt that... your comment comes off more along the lines of you not wanting to admit there was ever bullet lag in GR. ubi servers were _plagued_ with bullet lag, and still are. as far as dedicated ones, if you're connecting from overseas you'll feel it as well... as for the 6 people you mentioned, i guess it's time for them to go out and spend some dough, because i've never experienced actual bullet lag on my system with GRAW. slow trigger response - yes, sometimes, but once the shot animation kicks in and the sound is produced - the round travels across instantly. if it doesn't - look into a memory upgrade, or at least lower some graphics settings. GRAW PC has hit the streets about a year too early, so it's easy to blame the game, rather than your hardware, because everyone else is having similar problems, again, due to outdated hardware(which could've been purchased as the highest end product quite recently). tonight's the night i'll be setting up my FiOS server, and if any of you guys spot it in the browser, i encourage you to stress the living hell out of it, and post around here if anything laggy occurs... i'll probably call it th33f's NYC FiOS, so stop by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=3dS=rOOk Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) I have to second all the points Peace talks about. I have a superfast connection (10/20ms ping on good servers), a good PC (AMD64 3200@2550 - 7900gt 512mb - 2gb ram, Windows just installed and optimized) and good frames (>45/50). Another point: how many times u run into cover during a firefight and died a second after? Me and many people I know thing that there is a problem with GRAW netcode. Edited October 21, 2006 by =3dS=rOOk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAbbi_74 Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Unfortunately, that's an evil we have to deal with until the next generation of high-speed internet connection. And THEN, games will end-up being designed with the higher net speeds in mind, and we'll be right back here talking about the same lag issues again. It's a trough in the cycle, and the next peak will only be while we wait for hardware and software to catch-up to connection speed. Right now, we're almost past the bottom of the trough I feel. Won't be long until developers find new, creative ways to speed-up their netcode, to comine with realization of such things as integrated 64-bit hardware and another leap in processor technology (as well as the full-on barrage pf physics processors, which MAY still come). Halfway back up the cycle we'll see new internet connection speeds come along, and the downward turn will come as developers work to capitalize on the greater data transfer rates. My semi-Orwellian look at things, anyhow. I might as well be analyzing ancient Greek literature for all I actually KNOW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightspeed Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) ok, I had a rethink and yes there was some bullet lag in [GR]. but it still beat the hell out of GRAW. so I am prepared to retract that statement. Edited October 21, 2006 by PoW_LigHtsPeEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panic Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Funny that theef, I never once heard a complaint about the bullet lag in [GR], and I never had an issue with it in 4 years. However, 6 out the 10 ppl who still play GRAW do find it a problem in GRAW. you must've never played on a private server then? i doubt that... your comment comes off more along the lines of you not wanting to admit there was ever bullet lag in GR. ubi servers were _plagued_ with bullet lag, and still are. as far as dedicated ones, if you're connecting from overseas you'll feel it as well... as for the 6 people you mentioned, i guess it's time for them to go out and spend some dough, because i've never experienced actual bullet lag on my system with GRAW. slow trigger response - yes, sometimes, but once the shot animation kicks in and the sound is produced - the round travels across instantly. if it doesn't - look into a memory upgrade, or at least lower some graphics settings. GRAW PC has hit the streets about a year too early, so it's easy to blame the game, rather than your hardware, because everyone else is having similar problems, again, due to outdated hardware(which could've been purchased as the highest end product quite recently). tonight's the night i'll be setting up my FiOS server, and if any of you guys spot it in the browser, i encourage you to stress the living hell out of it, and post around here if anything laggy occurs... i'll probably call it th33f's NYC FiOS, so stop by. agree with all points made, i upgraded from an amd 2800+ / x800 xt pe... to intel 6600 / x1900xt, and the game is much better. i think from the original post, Example 1 and Example 2 are Mr Peace's experience but that is not the same for everyone else, i know that i dont have these issues. regarding Example 3 - i dont use the GL because of the nade bug hehehe someone said the sound in [GR] was better than GRAW?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JASGripen Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 So much for irony and smiles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 I have to second all the points Peace talks about. I have a superfast connection (10/20ms ping on good servers), a good PC (AMD64 3200@2550 - 7900gt 512mb - 2gb ram, Windows just installed and optimized) and good frames (>45/50). Another point: how many times u run into cover during a firefight and died a second after? Me and many people I know thing that there is a problem with GRAW netcode. Yep, I forgot about that one, I agree it happens and is annoying. It's like the hits register on the opponents client...the hit(s) is/are transmitted ...with lag... to server and on to the local client, and you die way too late, when you are about to reload behind a corner (out of the line of fire). Sometimes you never even saw the opponet firing on you (and there was no other opponet involved). Lag again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth-IRA Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I have to second all the points Peace talks about. I have a superfast connection (10/20ms ping on good servers), a good PC (AMD64 3200@2550 - 7900gt 512mb - 2gb ram, Windows just installed and optimized) and good frames (>45/50). Another point: how many times u run into cover during a firefight and died a second after? Me and many people I know thing that there is a problem with GRAW netcode. Yep, I forgot about that one, I agree it happens and is annoying. It's like the hits register on the opponents client...the hit(s) is/are transmitted ...with lag... to server and on to the local client, and you die way too late, when you are about to reload behind a corner (out of the line of fire). Sometimes you never even saw the opponet firing on you (and there was no other opponet involved). Lag again? Cant really be sure about this one because of no replays......I've had that happen frequently. Only 2 possible explanations......The first is the netcode lag issue I feel you are describing well....that seemingly the opponents bullets will hit you even though you have moved out of line of sight. The second possible explanation here is that you got shot by someone else with a silenced rifle I feel that a lot of the second explanation happens a lot during games where there is 20+ players in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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