Anti-Cheat - Technical Discussion

[ToW-Angel]

I'm wondering if GRiN will allow server-sided additional settings to allow admins control the of how stringent the anti-cheat is.

Almost the CVAR checks in AAO, sound settings out of limits of the game setting, video settings out of limits as far as game gamma goes (not system, but game).

Example: Game gamma set at 1, limit is 1.5. Someone sets the game gamma to 2, that would be out of limits for the game and then would kick the person and noted in the logfile for referrence.

This is the kind of things that will assist server admins more when it comes to keeping them out.

So, the question is... Will we have the ability to set how stringent we check clients?

Yes, I know currently the Anti-Cheat has problems, but without these additional checks for the server admins, it will be near impossible to know who is actually cheating.

I'm hoping that GRiN will take this under advisement... I know that they are working on getting the A/C functional so that people aren't getting kicked from the server when they are not cheating.

**NOTE**

This is just to start this thread over since it was badly derailed. I still feel that it is important enough that we all discuss this maturely and as adults. Please keep your posts on topic.

[Cangaroo.TNT]

I know currently the Anti-Cheat has problems, but without these additional checks for the server admins, it will be near impossible to know who is actually cheating.

Please elaborate. I know people that are not cheating get kicked, but are cheaters getting caught? Does the AC work in that respect?

[ToW-Angel]

I don't believe it should just kick them... I believe they should be added to a master ban list that the anti-cheat creates.

But, hopefully they get the bugs worked so that it will only be catching the true cheater.

I have also been kicked for invalid CD-Key and Altered Game Files... So, let's hope that in the next patch that they have it fixed.

If cheaters are actually getting caught by the A/C, I think the only thing it does is kick them. I honestly do not know. Maybe one of the GRiN's could give us an answer?

[ToW-Angel]

**NUDGE** This is so that people know where this is.

[ruggbutt]

The problem with a master ban list is that innocent people end up on it even when the AC doesn't work properly. And the AC isn't working properly, lots of kicks for no good reason.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

The problem with a master ban list is that innocent people end up on it even when the AC doesn't work properly. And the AC isn't working properly, lots of kicks for no good reason.

Agreed. It is better to have a server only ban list. but... servers can display there xml on there website so it can be added to other servers. Kinda like the ACC was in GR. That way admins can pick and choose or add people the server has Proof of.

AC does need to be stable though 1st.

Edited September 26, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[ToW-Angel]

Once the A/C is stable, working 100% as it should, a master ban list is a good thing to have.

Right now? I definitely wouldn't want to see a master ban list with the amount of problems everyone is having.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Once the A/C is stable, working 100% as it should, a master ban list is a good thing to have.

Right now? I definitely wouldn't want to see a master ban list with the amount of problems everyone is having.

The thing is... for master ban lists that is... for example... we warn once for lang... and then ban. Not every server cares. I wouldn't also want to see someone on a master ban list for language. The bans would have to have choices of master or not which could lead to human error in banning.

[ToW-Angel]

As I have pointed out in the past and many times before...

When you, the server admin, the guy behind the controls of the server issues a command to ban someone, it is only a LOCAL ban to that server that the server admin, the guy behind the controls YOU control.

When the anti-cheat bans someone, that is a GLOBAL ban and goes on a different ban list all together.

That's right folks... 2 ban lists, one is local to only the server, the other is the whole internet of servers.

Someone is causing problems, I ban him.... OH guess what? That's a local ban!!!!!!! This is a local ban list.

Someone has a speed hack, the anti-cheat bans him... Ooooooo Guess what? That's a GLOBAL BAN. This is a master ban list.

Anti-Cheat Ban - Master Ban List - hackers, cheaters

Local Server Admin Ban - Local Ban list - entirely specific to 1 server, the one you control, the one you can ban for language, TK'ing and stupidity.

Do you understand the difference now?

Edited September 26, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[ROCO*AFZ*]

As I have pointed out in the past and many times before...

When you, the server admin, the guy behind the controls of the server issues a command to ban someone, it is only a LOCAL ban to that server that the server admin, the guy behind the controls YOU control.

When the anti-cheat bans someone, that is a GLOBAL ban and goes on a different ban list all together.

That's right folks... 2 ban lists, one is local to only the server, the other is the whole internet of servers.

Someone is causing problems, I ban him.... OH guess what? That's a local ban!!!!!!! This is a local ban list.

Someone has a speed hack, the anti-cheat bans him... Ooooooo Guess what? That's a GLOBAL BAN. This is a master ban list.

Anti-Cheat Ban - Master Ban List - hackers, cheaters

Local Server Admin Ban - Local Ban list - entirely specific to 1 server, the one you control, the one you can ban for language, TK'ing and stupidity.

Do you understand the difference now?

Of course... that is partialy what my above post stated "2 ban lists"

If the anticheat is working correctly though, the master ban isn't needed as all servers he joins will automatically put him on the local if he is using the hack... correct ?

[ToW-Angel]

The only way he would be banned from all servers for cheating is if there WAS a master ban list.

And no... What if you accidently unbanned a cheater?

The anti-cheat has its own ban list, and is read from a repository somewhere.

Joint Operations has 2 ban lists. One that PB checks, and there's a local one that the game itself checks in a directory on the game server.

And, you really don't want the two ban lists crossing each other at all... It could lead to a whole load of unexpected consequences...

One of the things is, the anti-cheat system does not download the master ban list, but it does send small packets to a repository and always checking the client against that repository to ensure that no one is getting in the server who is in fact a cheater.

A master ban list is nothing more than a repository somewhere that that A/C checks currently connected clients against to make sure that a cheater hasn't entered the server. If the A/C has indeed found a hack/cheat, a person will get added to the Master Ban List in the repository.

Now, the thing that would need to done at this point is to have a convening authority so that people can at least attempt to plead their case. But, that's is getting off topic and is another thread already.

When you ban someone yourself, that ban list is maintained on the game server you own/rent.

But, like I said... Until the A/C is 100% stable and working 100% correctly, I personally do not want to see a master ban list appear.

The two ban lists are completely and utterly exclusive to each other and will never meet in the middle.

Edited September 26, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[ROCO*AFZ*]

The only way he would be banned from all servers for cheating is if there WAS a master ban list.

And no... What if you accidently unbanned a cheater?

The anti-cheat has its own ban list, and is read from a repository somewhere.

Joint Operations has 2 ban lists. One that PB checks, and there's a local one that the game itself checks in a directory on the game server.

And, you really don't want the two ban lists crossing each other at all... It could lead to a whole load of unexpected consequences...

One of the things is, the anti-cheat system does not download the master ban list, but it does send small packets to a repository and always checking the client against that repository to ensure that no one is getting in the server who is in fact a cheater.

A master ban list is nothing more than a repository somewhere that that A/C checks currently connected clients against to make sure that a cheater hasn't entered the server. If the A/C has indeed found a hack/cheat, a person will get added to the Master Ban List in the repository.

Now, the thing that would need to done at this point is to have a convening authority so that people can at least attempt to plead their case. But, that's is getting off topic and is another thread already.

When you ban someone yourself, that ban list is maintained on the game server you own/rent.

But, like I said... Until the A/C is 100% stable and working 100% correctly, I personally do not want to see a master ban list appear.

The two ban lists are completely and utterly exclusive to each other and will never meet in the middle.

Let me explain again... To use that cheat he was using... if the AC detects it on one server, it would detect it on all... so why would a master be needed? Granted he could shut it off and play... but who cares, he ain't cheating for sure at that point and will suck badly.

What would be the advantage of a master... if the Anticheat would be kicking him anyway if his cheat was on?

Only one i would see is if he got a future cheat the anticheat would not detect... but... then he wouldn't get on a master ban list anyway.

Just trying to see if you get my actual point... and to understand yours.

[ToW-Angel]

A master ban list would hold his PCID.... Since the only interlinking way of making sure that he's not able to enter any server running the anti-cheat is through a master ban list that each Anti-Cheat server can check it against. It's the 'only' link between servers.

Local ban lists can be shared and what not, but without any way of knowing which one is a cheat and which person is just a trouble maker in one server may not be a trouble maker in the other servers so now you've got too much in hand and then we even have fewer people playing the game.

The only link between all the servers can be the anti-cheat system. Now if someone cheats on one server, gets caught on that one server, the Anti-Cheat bans him, adds his name to the master ban list, then all the server running anit-cheat check that ban list, and now he's not able to enter any of the servers that are running anti-cheat.

Caught on one anti-cheat server, banned on them all.

That is what a master ban list does, that's how it works with many other anti-cheat system, that's how PB does it.

You honestly don't want a local ban list mingling with a master ban list... It would seriously screw up people.

The only way to truly link all of the servers running anti-cheat is through a master ban list. You get too many computers talking to each other as far as servers go, then you create on nasty mess of connectivity.

With a repository master ban list, then there is just 1 server in which the game servers communicate with... The repository. 1 ban list for the entire anti-cheat system, which has absolutely nothing to do with a local ban list which is maintained by you, the server admins, the guys behind the controls.

I am going to say that this is off/on topic discussion as the discussion is about the technical side of adding more options for server admins to add additional game system checks.

Edited September 26, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[-|-aMMo-|-]

^ and to add to that..

Let me explain again... To use that cheat he was using... if the AC detects it on one server, it would detect it on all... so why would a master be needed? Granted he could shut it off and play... but who cares, he ain't cheating for sure at that point and will suck badly.

What would be the advantage of a master... if the Anticheat would be kicking him anyway if his cheat was on?

Only one i would see is if he got a future cheat the anticheat would not detect... but... then he wouldn't get on a master ban list anyway.

Just trying to see if you get my actual point... and to understand yours.

The problem with that is, the hacker can perfect his work by changing it and testing it on different servers to make it undetected.

So if he gets banned on all, he wont have the chance to test it on those servers.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

A master ban list would hold his PCID.... Since the only interlinking way of making sure that he's not able to enter any server running the anti-cheat is through a master ban list that each Anti-Cheat server can check it against. It's the 'only' link between servers.

Local ban lists can be shared and what not, but without any way of knowing which one is a cheat and which person is just a trouble maker in one server may not be a trouble maker in the other servers so now you've got too much in hand and then we even have fewer people playing the game.

The only link between all the servers can be the anti-cheat system. Now if someone cheats on one server, gets caught on that one server, the Anti-Cheat bans him, adds his name to the master ban list, then all the server running anit-cheat check that ban list, and now he's not able to enter any of the servers that are running anti-cheat.

Caught on one anti-cheat server, banned on them all.

That is what a master ban list does, that's how it works with many other anti-cheat system, that's how PB does it.

You honestly don't want a local ban list mingling with a master ban list... It would seriously screw up people.

The only way to truly link all of the servers running anti-cheat is through a master ban list. You get too many computers talking to each other as far as servers go, then you create on nasty mess of connectivity.

With a repository master ban list, then there is just 1 server in which the game servers communicate with... The repository. 1 ban list for the entire anti-cheat system, which has absolutely nothing to do with a local ban list which is maintained by you, the server admins, the guys behind the controls.

I am going to say that this is off/on topic discussion as the discussion is about the technical side of adding more options for server admins to add additional game system checks.

options aren't good... as some may have them on or off. It should be all or nothing.

The problem with that is, the hacker can perfect his work by changing it and testing it on different servers to make it undetected.

So if he gets banned on all, he wont have the chance to test it on those servers.

That is probably the best reason i have heard for an MBL.

The problem is UBI or grin would have to host it, and maintain it. Doubt it will happen until at least an expansion (to generate more cash flow)

Also note the server would have to maintain a localized copy of it in case the MBL server was down.

[ToW-Angel]

With constant updates with the A/C and updates to additional checks, it will continuously make it harder for cheaters to get.

As it is now, it is the same way the Ammo described... They can still work there way around it the same way.

Once there is an ability to ban by PCID, then it is game over unless they have another computer to use, then after that computer is banned... They would have to buy another computer altogether...

Regardless if there's a Master Ban List or not, cheaters will attempt to work around anything in place, including the current anti-cheat system.

Without additional checks that we as server admins can use by looking for specific files, memory checks, truly altered core game files and the such, then no anti-cheat is worth a hill of beans.

AAO has tons of CVAR checks, JO's PB checks for many different files that shouldn't be there that are used for cheating... This is all possible with the ability to add in more checks than a basic anti-cheat system.

Without additional server admin checks, no anti-cheat is good.

@Roco - there should be more than 1 server, just to serve as a backup... In fact, I believe that PunkBuster has close to 100 servers or more. The system is intensive, but it works, but only as good as the server admin. With additional checks that we know, we can have the A/C check for files that should not be in the game directory. There should also be MD5 Tool checks on game system core files.

The more options/settings that a server admin has at his finger tips, the better you can truly admin the server to keep out undesirable cheaters. Options in the way of being able to search the game directory for a file that should not be there, settings to kick then ban, or just ban a cheater.

The ability to have more checks is an option of the server admin. The more options you have, the more settings you have, the harder it will be for cheaters to enter a server.

Of course, there will be human input when someone is caught cheating by another player. You have SS's, you have other players who witness it and so on. That's where the thread about a website for the community to vote on if someone is actually cheating and if determined to be a cheat, then that PCID gets added to the master ban list.

This is a complex system as it is, but it is only as good as GRiN make it and only as good as server admins use it. Additional checks are an absolute must with more options and settings available to make it happen.

***NOTE***

As much as this involves everyone, there is little to almost no input from a lot of people except for a select few. This is something that we all should be discussing, but hardly anyone is doing so.

Edited September 26, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[ROCO*AFZ*]

With constant updates with the A/C and updates to additional checks, it will continuously make it harder for cheaters to get.

As it is now, it is the same way the Ammo described... They can still work there way around it the same way.

Once there is an ability to ban by PCID, then it is game over unless they have another computer to use, then after that computer is banned... They would have to buy another computer altogether...

Regardless if there's a Master Ban List or not, cheaters will attempt to work around anything in place, including the current anti-cheat system.

Without additional checks that we as server admins can use by looking for specific files, memory checks, truly altered core game files and the such, then no anti-cheat is worth a hill of beans.

AAO has tons of CVAR checks, JO's PB checks for many different files that shouldn't be there that are used for cheating... This is all possible with the ability to add in more checks than a basic anti-cheat system.

Without additional server admin checks, no anti-cheat is good.

@Roco - there should be more than 1 server, just to serve as a backup... In fact, I believe that PunkBuster has close to 100 servers or more. The system is intensive, but it works, but only as good as the server admin. With additional checks that we know, we can have the A/C check for files that should not be in the game directory. There should also be MD5 Tool checks on game system core files.

The more options/settings that a server admin has at his finger tips, the better you can truly admin the server to keep out undesirable cheaters. Options in the way of being able to search the game directory for a file that should not be there, settings to kick then ban, or just ban a cheater.

The ability to have more checks is an option of the server admin. The more options you have, the more settings you have, the harder it will be for cheaters to enter a server.

Of course, there will be human input when someone is caught cheating by another player. You have SS's, you have other players who witness it and so on. That's where the thread about a website for the community to vote on if someone is actually cheating and if determined to be a cheat, then that PCID gets added to the master ban list.

This is a complex system as it is, but it is only as good as GRiN make it and only as good as server admins use it. Additional checks are an absolute must with more options and settings available to make it happen.

***NOTE***

As much as this involves everyone, there is little to almost no input from a lot of people except for a select few. This is something that we all should be discussing, but hardly anyone is doing so.

Graw currently has a hash id. Check the ban_list after banning someone. I think it's an encrypted cd key, but it could be more like a hardware identifier.

Punkbuster has 100's of servers but remember it has 100's of games funding it. I wouldn't see at this point more then 2 MBL's if we were lucky.

[ToW-Angel]

I agree that we might get lucky to get a single master repository server and a single slave repository. The would need to be on separate networks as to assure that the if one network goes down, you still have the backup server on another to pickup the slack.

Best scenario is there be 2 master servers and 2 slave servers, each one on different networks.

Edited September 27, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I agree that we might get lucky to get a single master repository server and a single slave repository. The would need to be on separate networks as to assure that the if one network goes down, you still have the backup server on another to pickup the slack.

Best scenario is there be 2 master servers and 2 slave servers, each one on different networks.

or a local image... maybe the server downloads it each time you start it up? But reports it live as it happens.

[ToW-Angel]

That would definitely work... Just as long as no one has the ability to change it.