Anti-Cheat - More Stringent

[ToW-Angel]

Maybe you should take your own advice and re-read my posts, all but one(TWL) support your opening thread. This is a public forum and I will post my opinion, so as far as staying the hell out, no thank you. If you have a problem with me posting then thats your problem and maybe you should move on.

Would I like to see SS, yes

Would I like to see added cvar checks, yes

But only if they are done right.

Pulaski, it's my thread and if I feel it is moving off topic, then that's my choice to say so. The problem I have with you right now is that you are telling me that I don't have the right to say if a thread is going off topic... Uh... I started the thread and that gives me the right to say it's going off topic if I believe it is. I don't have a problem with you posting, but keep it to the thread title/description I give. As for me moving on from my own thread? I have to ask you this... What in the hell are you thinking?

But, people seem to be missing the main point of this thread is giving admins more control over what is checked for by the A/C. Giving us admins more tools to use is not a bad thing at all... Just like FlimFlam said... It's an advantage.

The more checks and balances we have against cheating, the better it will be for the community.

We definitely need the tools to do it.

CVAR Checks

Game Variables

Memory Checks

Screenshots

Master Ban List that the A/C system checks against. *see note 1

MD5 Tool

NOTES:

1) I know that most of you hate this idea, but it's not something that an admin or player can change. Someone gets caught cheating by the A/C system, they get added to a master ban list, much like PunkBuster.

[}PW{ Postal]

That's why a match server should be run by a 3rd party, ala the league/ladder and should have an admin whose sole purpose is admin that server.

Regardless of what you say, it's still a very feasible idea. Oh yeah... Most matches in TWL or CAL have anti-cheat turned off to ensure people do not get lagged out.

If you don't believe me? Ask TWL.Agent.

I have matched in TWL and never seen anything about having the anti-cheat turned off for matching. If anything more checks are added to the anti-cheat. Why would any want a match were the anti-cheat is turned off?

As far as lagging players in matches ROCOAFZ, I don't think you will see that problem with GRAW, since only a few matches have taken place and the furture doesn't look good for GRAW when it comes down to matching. It's just not matchable.

I have never liked in RVS(yes I know we are talking GRAW) that I would get kicked because me gamma was 2.0 or higher.

How is that a cheat? I have never and never will cheat simply because I dont know how, or to mature to fool with it.

I was just wondering about the gamma thing, thats all.

DD

It's not a cheat, but it can give an unfair advantage.

Polaski... we are matching now at TCZ. It is fully matchable

ToW-Angel.. at TCZ we play with anticheat on and have no lag. Not sure why TWL would do that, and i wouldn't join a ladder that doesn't.

As for Gamma... not fully a cheat if adjusted in game. Everyone has the option to do it by an IN-GAME setting.

Now if it was from an outside source, then it may be.

Roco, not to poke you with a stick, but your theory is flawed in the sense that you believe you can lag the opposing team out by too many SS's being taken. It would be requesting them from all connected players, and would be a detriment to both teams.

Maybe your not or i'm not getting what is being said.

You are talking about selecting an individual and setting the amount of screenshots interval for that one person correct?

A server admin could as i said lag that peep by setting it to 100 screenshots a second. The peep would probablty be overwelmed and drop as most home users uploads aren't very much.

The only way to be fair i am saying is when turned on to take a screenshot of everyone. Your server should be able to handle it. and a server admin would not lag his own server on purpose.

Theory is not flawed in this aspect

All in all though what would you detect? a few direct 3d hacks that may be blocked currently.

Well if im taking your posts on this in the right way. If an admin would do that...do you really want to be matching with them. All it would take is getting caught (which seems to me would be pretty obvious and easy to catch) one time doing such an act and they would never have anyone to match anyway. You are talking about someone abusing it. If an admin wants to abuse that then there are other ways they could pick on a player as well. We are kinda splitting hairs here. Just my opinion!

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Speaking of splitting hairs...

If you govern gamma then you would have to classify everyone that shuts post effects off via the xml, and everyone that also changes there ret color... which btw i am all for...

I'm with Polaski in saying good feature possibilities but they need to be done right. Currently the anticheat is back to not being stable. Do we really want to add more and not have a stable one for the next 6 months?

(to solve most disconnects but the GL bug crash issue disable the anticheat as 1.30 has broken it's timing)

Well if im taking your posts on this in the right way. If an admin would do that...do you really want to be matching with them. All it would take is getting caught (which seems to me would be pretty obvious and easy to catch) one time doing such an act and they would never have anyone to match anyway. You are talking about someone abusing it. If an admin wants to abuse that then there are other ways they could pick on a player as well. We are kinda splitting hairs here. Just my opinion!

and how would you as a client catch them... majically there is just more lag on that server for you conviently after a lag test. There is no way for the client to prove you are lagging him.

Edited September 20, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[ToW-Angel]

I know the A/C isn't stable right now... I agree... Adding more tools now, working out the kinks of it while it still isn't stable is the best time to get things added to it. 6 months, we should have a very stable A/C system with as many tools as possible.

Would like to have it sooner rather than later, but I do want it to be absolutely stable with the added tools.

Well if im taking your posts on this in the right way. If an admin would do that...do you really want to be matching with them. All it would take is getting caught (which seems to me would be pretty obvious and easy to catch) one time doing such an act and they would never have anyone to match anyway. You are talking about someone abusing it. If an admin wants to abuse that then there are other ways they could pick on a player as well. We are kinda splitting hairs here. Just my opinion!

and how would you as a client catch them... majically there is just more lag on that server for you conviently after a lag test. There is no way for the client to prove you are lagging him.

Again, this is a timing issue... If it's built-in to the A/C system to only allow so many screenshots per request, then it will not be a problem. Also, the timing of it will start when the player connects to the server so that people are not being hit at exactly the same moment. Automatic SS's every 60 seconds minimum and 1 per player connected to the server. Manual screenshots are the same way... You cannot manually request one in less than 60 seconds minimum. This would be built-in to the A/C system without any settings available to the admin/player. This will avoid any lag issues entirely.

Edited September 20, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[}PW{ Postal]

and how would you as a client catch them... majically there is just more lag on that server for you conviently after a lag test. There is no way for the client to prove you are lagging him.

Well if it just happened to happen to the best player and yet he was running smooth as silk and all of a sudden started experiencing lag out of no where but everyone else was a ok. Would seem pretty suspicious to me. Also...since you planted this idea in our heads...it would be easy to watch for...TY

Anyways...like i said...if there was admin doing such a thing....i wouldnt be worried about this cause if they would go to this extent to win a match...what wouldnt they do...lol

"Trust everyone...just dont trust the devil inside them!"

Edited September 20, 2006 by }PW{ Postal

[Skratte]

While I don't play GRAW yet, and might not, I will put my 2 cents in about any AC and additional checks.

I ran a PB enabled server for another squad that matched in Joint Operations on TWL. I was responsible for keep ing the MBL list updated, any new MD5 checks, checking SS's. etc. Additional checks like AA's cvar checks, or the MD5 checks for PB will have to be mandatory if the initial AC doesn't check for items like altered skin files, certain xml files, etc.

The problem with squad servers having these additional checks on their server is that not all squads will run ALL the checks. I ran into this problem with a squad on TWL that shot to the top of the JO ladder in 6 or 7 matches.

Their server happened to be hosted on the same server my squad's was ,so I ask the server owner to check certain files. This unnamed squad wasn'tt running 7 very important checks that were required by TWL to be running.

So, the question becomes, while we do need these checks, how can they be implemented so everyone is on equal ground ?

[Pulaski]

Pulaski, it's my thread and if I feel it is moving off topic, then that's my choice to say so. The problem I have with you right now is that you are telling me that I don't have the right to say if a thread is going off topic... Uh... I started the thread and that gives me the right to say it's going off topic if I believe it is. I don't have a problem with you posting, but keep it to the thread title/description I give. As for me moving on from my own thread? I have to ask you this... What in the hell are you thinking?

ToW-Angel

" I started the thread and that gives me the right to say it's going off topic if I believe it is."

"Pulaski, it's my thread and if I feel it is moving off topic, then that's my choice to say so"

It's a public forum, just because you started the thread doesn't give you any more rights then me, that call is up to the Forum Moderators. There's a reason is called topic starter and not topic owner. Last post on this subject for me.

While I don't play GRAW yet, and might not, I will put my 2 cents in about any AC and additional checks.

I ran a PB enabled server for another squad that matched in Joint Operations on TWL. I was responsible for keep ing the MBL list updated, any new MD5 checks, checking SS's. etc. Additional checks like AA's cvar checks, or the MD5 checks for PB will have to be mandatory if the initial AC doesn't check for items like altered skin files, certain xml files, etc.

The problem with squad servers having these additional checks on their server is that not all squads will run ALL the checks. I ran into this problem with a squad on TWL that shot to the top of the JO ladder in 6 or 7 matches.

Their server happened to be hosted on the same server my squad's was ,so I ask the server owner to check certain files. This unnamed squad wasn'tt running 7 very important checks that were required by TWL to be running.

So, the question becomes, while we do need these checks, how can they be implemented so everyone is on equal ground ?

Any anti-cheat would have to give the clients some rights also. Example would be clients rights when using PB, like /pb_cvarlist which will show some of the settings on a server. I have my PB set-up to show/ save pb_logs to file and to save my SS local. The above you should have been able to check the settings from client, with the right set-up.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Pulaski

[Skratte]

I had/have my PB setup on my computer where it would also log any SS's and what checks were scanned on my computer. That's how I suspected all the checks weren't being done.

Next time you drive thru Blacksburg, stop and tip a cow for me

[ToW-Angel]

ToW-Angel

" I started the thread and that gives me the right to say it's going off topic if I believe it is."

"Pulaski, it's my thread and if I feel it is moving off topic, then that's my choice to say so"

It's a public forum, just because you started the thread doesn't give you any more rights then me, that call is up to the Forum Moderators. There's a reason is called topic starter and not topic owner. Last post on this subject for me.

Just like you do not have the right to tell me that I feel this thread is going off topic. You were WRONG to do so, which also makes you WRONG now. I can get this thread locked... It was almost locked early today, all I had to do was say the word. You don't like what I have to say, too bad.

If I wish this thread to go in a direction, I'm certainly not going to allow someone to hijack it like 98% of the other threads. If I feel it is going off topic, it's MY right to say so... Again... Too bad for you. Don't like it? Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

This MY last post to you about this.

I agree to disagree with some of the things mentioned here, but more on topic is allowing us to have the settings and tools that we need to truly combat any type of cheating in our server. Many other things I have said before in this thread, the A/C Forum and on many other threads and forums.

We have to have the tools... The A/C is only as good as the people who use it, and without enough tools it is truly a fruitless endeavor. We definitely need the extra settings in order to addin more to the A/C to make it a lot stronger than just checking for CD-Key and Altered Game Files.

[Pulaski]

Next time you drive thru Blacksburg, stop and tip a cow for me

LMAO....I never was good at cow tipping, but snipe hunting is another story.

GO HOKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something like zblock would be a good idea. http://zblock.eurocss.net/index.htm I don't know alot about myself but it's mandatory on some ladders. I think it adds more checks from the public then steam uses for VAC.

EDIT: I forgot to add zblock is used for CS:S

Edited September 20, 2006 by Pulaski

[ToW-Angel]

Next time you drive thru Blacksburg, stop and tip a cow for me

LMAO....I never was good at cow tipping, but snipe hunting is another story.

GO HOKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something like zblock would be a good idea. http://zblock.eurocss.net/index.htm I don't know alot about myself but it's mandatory on some ladders. I think it adds more checks from the public then steams uses for VAC.

Not knowing exactly what those things mean makes it difficult to understand their purpose. However, if it is anything like CVAR checks, that is the type of thing I'm referring to partly. The other stuff as I mentioned earlier are, but not limited to:

Resident Memory Checks

A/C checking the master ban list that the Anti-Cheat system creates itself. (hopefully this will be stable and not create false positives) and that real cheaters get added to a MBL.

Screen Shots - Autmatic and Manual (with a timer to only allow so many screen shots in a specified amount of time)

MD5 Tool with file hash on game critical files (Not mod files, but should be checked if game variables have been changed).

Game System Variables are within tolerable limits set by GRiN.

We all know that the cheaters have the edge... It's time that we all come up with as many ideas and settings that GRiN could hopefully implement. That's the purpose, that's the reason for this thread.

[ZJJ]

Let's keep it civil in here, folks.

Server admin tools are always good to have and discuss, I would hate to have to close this thread because of bickering. :no:

[RAbbi_74]

N/M... I was in the wrong thread....

LOL... Sorry, ToW_Angel! You go right on with your bad selves...

[ToW-Angel]

The Anti-Cheat forum is for the community, while this thread is more of the technical aspects of implementing more tools for the admins to use to combat cheaters.

[ruggbutt]

Screenshots of 320x240 will not lag a server or client out, however a 640x480 will hardly be noticable client-side. PunkBuster is able to do it without much effort.

Screenshots at 320x240 are too small to be effective, and every PB enabled game I've ever played I've been able to tell when the screenshot was taken. Data has to be sent and with a full server something has to give.

[ToW-Angel]

Rug, you using a 1200baud modem? Then that's your problem. It's the connection speed that causes the lag... Not with todays connection speeds available.

[Skratte]

I would have to agree with Rug here, I've played 3 different games that used PB, and I could tell on 2 of them when the SS's were being taken.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I would have to agree with Rug here, I've played 3 different games that used PB, and I could tell on 2 of them when the SS's were being taken.

It's not usually per say lag... but a missed frame when it's being taken as it captures the shot.

[Skratte]

It might be poor netcode in the game, poor intergration of PB within the game, or whatever, but the "hiccup" is noticeable.

[RAbbi_74]

Question: is it a true screenshot, or is it the raw data behind the screenie (player position, orientation, etc... all the raw data that comes BEFORE the GPU)? Just thinking about whether THAT would be as useful as the whole screenie. I mean, given the right data elements (all of which should pass thorugh the server other than the client settings), shouldn't one be able to recreate a screenshot consistently and accurately?

[ToW-Angel]

That is a very good question, Rabbi... Hopefully someone could answer it!

Edited September 21, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[RAbbi_74]

[ruggbutt]

Rug, you using a 1200baud modem? Then that's your problem. It's the connection speed that causes the lag... Not with todays connection speeds available.

I love how you guys intimate that you'd know better than I if I can feel the lag. Angel, you don't know squat about me. And I've got 1mb up and 8 down. So don't give me that BS that it's my connection. Screenshots lag the server as it's using resources. CPU cycles on both ends. I know cuz I've run several PB enabled games (with screenshots) on our dedicated server. 5 years of running dedicated servers for my squad gives me plenty of experience with PB.

Edited September 21, 2006 by ruggbutt

[Cangaroo.TNT]

I love how you guys intimate that you'd know better than I if I can feel the lag. Angel, you don't know squat about me. And I've got 1mb up and 8 down. So don't give me that BS that it's my connection. Screenshots lag the server as it's using resources. CPU cycles on both ends. I know cuz I've run several PB enabled games (with screenshots) on our dedicated server. 5 years of running dedicated servers for my squad gives me plenty of experience with PB.

You're obviously a liar, because you couldn't possibly know more than I do about your computer. Just kidding...just kidding....

[ruggbutt]

' date='Sep 21 2006, 12:11 PM' post='422728']

You're obviously a liar, because you couldn't possibly know more than I do about your computer. Just kidding...just kidding....

Tell me how many gigs of pr0n I have and I'll believe you..............