Jump to content

Open Question For The GriN Team


Kingkat
 Share

Recommended Posts

lets go back to car analogies please, it settles the mind and peace

when a manufacturer makes a car it has a chasis and body

by design, an engine and the fancy stuff

a customer is right when he askes if it can be adjusted, better tires rims radio little tweak of the engine maybe

but the customer has to go somewhere else if the engine does not suit him or the body shape does not fit his garage

any complaints about the stock product and estatics are flawed when buying a car, because those are manufacturer choises and they will redirect you to a custom kit car or the next door dealer

that for the car analogy and trying to get back on topic

which has strayed so far of

*i think grin wants the community to be clear in their desires and sound and speak in one voice so they could cater us better*

btw has any one got a job for me ???

That's what modders do just like people who customize cars and trucks. It's also after market addons... Usually get these from other sources too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 64
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Check out this DOPE carbon fiber wing I got for my GRAW Si-R this weekend, dooD! I hear it'll help me go 13's in the quarter-mile!

I don't think that really applies to our modders so much as the car analogies. Thought I'd throw it in there. I'm laughing...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yeah you're right. that's why there's more people playing GRAW than playing HL2, BF2, RvS, FEAR, CSS, Quake3, Quake4, UT2004. all 144 of them.

If you're going to argue with me, at least do me the courtesy of READING what I said. Find one place in there that I said GRAW was a better game than any of those you listed. Hmm... let me check it again... nope, not there. Not there either.... or there. Funny, I can't seem to find that anywhere. I CAN, however, find the place where I pointed out that folks at Valve stated that you CANNOT listen to and implement everything the hardcore fans want without ruining the game. People at id and and Epic have echoed that sentiment at one point or another. If I must, I'll hunt down those sources again.

Now, what I DID say, for those that were too lazy to read a few paragraphs was this:

The customer is not always right. Bad games get made by listening to everything the customers want and then haphazardly implementing those ideas.

Of course your next argument will be something to do with dedicated servers and GRAW or some other feature that should have been there, and you know what? You're right. There are some ideas/requests/demands that the community serves out that are GREAT ideas and absolutely necessary for a successful game. That doesn't mean that every idea is good, or every customer's opinion is "Right". You have to be able to see the trash for what it is to find the gems hidden within it. That process starts with the assumption that customers are NOT always right and experience tells us that not only are they not always right, they are almost always wrong.

If you're going to argue, argue on what was said. Making things up in an argument only weakens your position.

I'll agree that not everything under the sun that someone says that might play the game should be taken into account. However, alienating your core fanbase by not including the bare minimum that was included in the last iteration is asinine. People refer to car analogies, sure the styles change but the core things are there and are getting better. The corvette has always been the fastest chevy produced. It has always been a two seater, always handled very well. You don't see the new designers changing any of the core values of the corvette. They aren't trying to upgrade it and make it get the best mileage of any chevy, not trying to put in 2 more seats, put a bed in it so you can haul things. why? because it's a corvette, it's meant to go fast and handle well so they improve on this.

likewise grin/ubi whoever you want to blame has taken GR, a tactile methodical fps and tried to turn it into a run and gun game, left out the good handling, powerful engine, and tried to tune the motor for better gas mileage. IE left out LMS, Siege, 5+ player missions, Hamburger Hill, ability to control different characters etc., and stuck Domination (Unreal Tournament gametype) in their place. It took the community outrage to get the other gametypes into patches.

So what I am saying in this situation is that a developer IGNORED the core community and did what they wanted to do and it failed miserably because they tried to change so much. Id, Valve, etc can ignore input by fans because they understand why their previous games were popular and included those values in their next iteration with some added features. They didn't try to reinvent the wheel. grin didn't understand why we loved GR so much and didn't try to understand and instead just made what they wanted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Currently we have more maps for MP TVT they GR1 when released

No, For [GR] we had the dedicated MP maps + the SP campaign maps (all!) to play T vs T on...and in addition, by the same time after [GR] release, as we are after GRAW release, the add-on, Desert Siege had been released for [GR] making the total number of maps with optional random multiple insertion (spawn) zones and different environment etc, making variable gameplay, which is the foundation for success, especially for laddering clans, even far greater.

[GR] also had replays, a decent injury model, variable skinns and characters (ex., sniper camo), more weapons, all game modes were available for all maps, game mode etc could easily be changed on the fly by server admins/hosts using a user friendly interface with options etc etc (the list can go on and on).

The low number of GRAW players online clearly tells us that UBI/GRIN has failed to make a concept that the GR MP and Coop community expected, and unfortunately GRAW also failed (so far) to recruit new players in sufficient numbers.

There are good things in GRAW and some features they even did better than [GR] (no typical [GR] graphics glitches etc). I do not regret buying GRAW or playing it, but GRIN just didn't make most out of it, to ensure it will live a long life...currently it still falls short on multiple aspects.

The continued struggel 4.5 months after release of GRAW with basic stability, lack of gameplay variability and options, and players, is troublesome. I'm starting to loose faith in it... but I hope the GRIN team can do something about it as there are no other good games out there (<5 years old).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, alienating your core fanbase by not including the bare minimum that was included in the last iteration is asinine.

I agree. But that's a different argument.

As I said in an earlier post, creating a sequel is generally looked at from a different point of view than creating the original. [GR] was created with the mindset of, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could do THIS (insert idea here)?" A sequel is generally created by looking at what worked and what didn't within the original, what the people liked and what they didn't and then basing the new game on that. It's a very different situation and experience tells us that as often as developers get it right, they sometimes get it wrong. I would argue that it's MUCH easier to create a new game than it is to create a sequel since there is so much less freedom when you have to try and fit to a previous mold or pre-concieved notions of what -should- be there.

I would completely agree that in this case UBI and GRiN failed to accurately gauge what PC gamers thought was important in the [Ghost Recon] and as such failed to bring those things to the new one.

That said, I do not believe for one second that GRiN came into this project with the intent of creating a brand new game in a vaccuum. That's simply not how sequels are done. The problem I think, is that the primary source for information on what was wanted in the game, for what was absolutely critical to be implemented came from UBI who have a track record for just not understanding our niche genre. By the time they got in contact with the community directly, it was likely too late for many major changes to be made, even if they would have been permitted by UBI. Now I'm not suggesting UBI said "Don't include a dedicated server" or "Don't you dare allow more than 4 people in co-op", just that the original design documents came from them. If THEY had stressed the importance of some of what we consider essential, then it's unlikely that so much time would have been misspent. A solid example of what I'm talking about are the character animations. They are absolutely excellent in GRAW, especially the diving and sliding ones. However, as cool as those are, I believe an inordinate amount of time, effort and money was spent on those. If I could choose between super realistic animations and more maps and game-modes or an SADS at release, I would without question choose one of the latter two.

That still doesn't make the customer right all the time..... just me. :)

Edited by TedSmith
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The low number of GRAW players online clearly tells us that UBI/GRIN has failed to make a concept that the GR MP and Coop community expected, and unfortunately GRAW also failed (so far) to recruit new ones in sufficient numbers.

There are good things in GRAW and some features they even did better than [GR] (no typical [GR] graphics glitches etc). I do not regret buying GRAW or playing it, but they just didn't make most out of it, to ensure it will live a long life...currently it still falls short on multiple aspects.

The continued struggel 4.5 months after release of GRAW with basic stability, lack of gameplay variability and options are troublesome. I'm starting to loose faith in it... but I hope the GRIN team can do something about it as there are no other good games out there (<5 years old)

Hey Peace,

I read your post and unfortunately, I have to agree.. not that agreeing with you is a bad, but the reasoning behind my agreeing is the issue. I too feel that GRAW seems to be dying a death. Although, I have not given up on GRIN to deliver as I personally enjoy the game and all it has to offer. But its GRAW's future I am concerned about, it's starting to look a little bleak from the MP side of things. With only ever about 100 peeps on at the same time, and only few servers ever being full… from the league side of things, it is not looking good. I struggle weekly trying to get just a few of my clan members to even logon on.

The big question in my mind is… HOW? .. How is GRIN going to get MP peeps back. Personally, I enjoy playing with the core of peeps I play with almost nightly.. AFZ, PW, Core .. But I am unsure that even the diehards are going to stick it out. Maybe fixing the current bugs, will bring back a few (are you?) and then possibly an expansion pack? But the expansion pack would have to be one kick butt expansion pack and marketed well.. plus all current bugs would have to be addressed before the expansion could even come out. The Expansion pack itself would also have to be essentially bug free. I think if they could open up most maps to the different Game modes would help in the mean time as well..

I look even to the modders.. I think the last post in thier forums was from like two days ago.

(take that back.. looks like a few guys are trying to get things going.. noticed a new modders section as well)-edit

It a pretty tell tail story when guys like you and I, who play almost nightly, are writing posts like these.

I think GRIN your team is still working hard, I know that UBI controls a lot of what you do..

But currently it is what the community thinks you are doing that matters right now?

What is it that the community could do right now to help you guys out??

Do you have any direction to give us? Other then keep playing the game and trying to get people to buy in to the "It's all going to work out for the best line.. over and over…

I will admint I truly admire all of the devotion you have given to us, the gamers.. I could only imagine the number of PM's you receive.. I know you can not reply to all posts..

If this game mean as much as I think it does to you guys, surely your team must be a little concerned?

Edited by IrishStout
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The low number of GRAW players online clearly tells us that UBI/GRIN has failed to make a concept that the GR MP and Coop community expected, and unfortunately GRAW also failed (so far) to recruit new ones in sufficient numbers.

There are good things in GRAW and some features they even did better than [GR] (no typical [GR] graphics glitches etc). I do not regret buying GRAW or playing it, but they just didn't make most out of it, to ensure it will live a long life...currently it still falls short on multiple aspects.

The continued struggel 4.5 months after release of GRAW with basic stability, lack of gameplay variability and options are troublesome. I'm starting to loose faith in it... but I hope the GRIN team can do something about it as there are no other good games out there (<5 years old)

Hey Peace,

I read your post and unfortunately, I have to agree.. not that agreeing with you is a bad, but the reasoning behind my agreeing is the issue. I too feel that GRAW seems to be dying a death. Although, I have not given up on GRIN to deliver as I personally enjoy the game and all it has to offer. But its GRAW's future I am concerned about, it's starting to look a little bleak from the MP side of things. With only ever about 100 peeps on at the same time, and only few servers ever being full… from the league side of things, it is not looking good. I struggle weekly trying to get just a few of my clan members to even logon on.

The big question in my mind is… HOW? .. How is GRIN going to get MP peeps back. Personally, I enjoy playing with the core of peeps I play with almost nightly.. AFZ, PW, Core .. But I am unsure that even the diehards are going to stick it out. Maybe fixing the current bugs, will bring back a few (are you?) and then possibly an expansion pack? But the expansion pack would have to be one kick butt expansion pack and marketed well.. plus all current bugs would have to be addressed before the expansion could even come out. The Expansion pack itself would also have to be essentially bug free. I think if they could open up most maps to the different Game modes would help in the mean time as well..

I look even to the modders.. I think the last post in thier forums was from like two days ago.

(take that back.. looks like a few guys are trying to get things going.. noticed a new modders section as well)-edit

It a pretty tell tail story when guys like you and I, who play almost nightly, are writing posts like these.

I think GRIN your team is still working hard, I know that UBI controls a lot of what you do..

But currently it is what the community thinks you are doing that matters right now?

What is it that the community could do right now to help you guys out??

Do you have any direction to give us? Other then keep playing the game and trying to get people to buy in to the "It's all going to work out for the best line.. over and over…

I will admint I truly admire all of the devotion you have given to us, the gamers.. I could only imagine the number of PM's you receive.. I know you can not reply to all posts..

If this game mean as much as I think it does to you guys, surely your team must be a little concerned?

Can i say expansion... everyone always comes back for a STABLE expansion pack.

Peace... note i said TVT. I didn't say the rest ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can i say expansion... everyone always comes back for a STABLE expansion pack.

But given what has happened so far - who of us would trust Grin to produce a stable Expansion Pack? As so far, they have failed to provide an initial stable game?

The key word here is trust; they don't have infinite time or resources to turn this around - so who trusts them to produce an expansion worth spending money on?

Edited by OliverReed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not talking about taking every crackpot idea and everyone thinking they are right... I'm talking about simple communication skills. like "hey we are working on fixing bug A bug B bug C" , or "we took smoke grenades out beucase of problems, they will be put back later" or the near worthless tutorial on the map editor and the screwed up way the editor itself functions.

we communicate more with you people than most developers do and hare happy to do so but we cant go down on a micro level as that would require us to do more writing than working.

or when people ask simple direct questions and the questions are totaly avoided or danced around....

we answer most questions almost straight away except for a few that we CANT answer, not only the ones in the forum but tons on Pms and emails.which is also something most developers wouldnt

You respond to that but not even half the questions I've seen people directly as you on here.

You guys live in your own reality. I'm just telling you right now... your way of doing things is wrong both in communication and development. Most developers don't have to communicate becuase they did the job right the first time. Look at splinter cell...

you guys think your 100% on the ball so youll listen to nothing we have to say so really my typing this is pointless, same with everyone else here. Youll do what you want anyway. Just listen to this, i knew this game was horrible first time i played the demo, but the people at ubi told me that only the demo was like that, the whole game was alot better. SO i risked it and picked it up at the store..... boy was i sorry, .. and still am. If you guys are making GRAW2 and are still on the same arrogant path our on then it will be yet another sad day for GR. IF you actually learned something then great... but it doesnt look like you did. Ill play the demo, if it sucks I'll save my money and continue on with SC and other good games.

you guys have alot to learn if you realize it or not

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, alienating your core fanbase by not including the bare minimum that was included in the last iteration is asinine.

I agree. But that's a different argument.

As I said in an earlier post, creating a sequel is generally looked at from a different point of view than creating the original. [GR] was created with the mindset of, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could do THIS (insert idea here)?" A sequel is generally created by looking at what worked and what didn't within the original, what the people liked and what they didn't and then basing the new game on that. It's a very different situation and experience tells us that as often as developers get it right, they sometimes get it wrong. I would argue that it's MUCH easier to create a new game than it is to create a sequel since there is so much less freedom when you have to try and fit to a previous mold or pre-concieved notions of what -should- be there.

I would completely agree that in this case UBI and GRiN failed to accurately gauge what PC gamers thought was important in the [Ghost Recon] and as such failed to bring those things to the new one.

That said, I do not believe for one second that GRiN came into this project with the intent of creating a brand new game in a vaccuum. That's simply not how sequels are done. The problem I think, is that the primary source for information on what was wanted in the game, for what was absolutely critical to be implemented came from UBI who have a track record for just not understanding our niche genre. By the time they got in contact with the community directly, it was likely too late for many major changes to be made, even if they would have been permitted by UBI. Now I'm not suggesting UBI said "Don't include a dedicated server" or "Don't you dare allow more than 4 people in co-op", just that the original design documents came from them. If THEY had stressed the importance of some of what we consider essential, then it's unlikely that so much time would have been misspent. A solid example of what I'm talking about are the character animations. They are absolutely excellent in GRAW, especially the diving and sliding ones. However, as cool as those are, I believe an inordinate amount of time, effort and money was spent on those. If I could choose between super realistic animations and more maps and game-modes or an SADS at release, I would without question choose one of the latter two.

That still doesn't make the customer right all the time..... just me. :)

we'll just have to agree to disagree. the customer is right most of the time. yes you do get customers that will just complain to complain or don't understand what they want or are just stupid but when you get many complaints on similar issues you obviously dropped the ball somewhere. ignoring the complaints will not get you more customers. people that complain are in essence giving you a second chance to fix your product because they like what they see they just think it could be better (customer loyality). The ones that take the time to complain are giving you information about why others that are silent are leaving for your compeditor.

I'm still of the mindset that the customer is almost always right. After all the customer pays your salary. in gaming it's probably less because you are designing a product, but you get to find out if you were right or wrong based on your sales and the people using your product. i think it's pretty clear here with graw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, alienating your core fanbase by not including the bare minimum that was included in the last iteration is asinine.

I agree. But that's a different argument.

As I said in an earlier post, creating a sequel is generally looked at from a different point of view than creating the original. [GR] was created with the mindset of, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could do THIS (insert idea here)?" A sequel is generally created by looking at what worked and what didn't within the original, what the people liked and what they didn't and then basing the new game on that. It's a very different situation and experience tells us that as often as developers get it right, they sometimes get it wrong. I would argue that it's MUCH easier to create a new game than it is to create a sequel since there is so much less freedom when you have to try and fit to a previous mold or pre-concieved notions of what -should- be there.

I would completely agree that in this case UBI and GRiN failed to accurately gauge what PC gamers thought was important in the [Ghost Recon] and as such failed to bring those things to the new one.

That said, I do not believe for one second that GRiN came into this project with the intent of creating a brand new game in a vaccuum. That's simply not how sequels are done. The problem I think, is that the primary source for information on what was wanted in the game, for what was absolutely critical to be implemented came from UBI who have a track record for just not understanding our niche genre. By the time they got in contact with the community directly, it was likely too late for many major changes to be made, even if they would have been permitted by UBI. Now I'm not suggesting UBI said "Don't include a dedicated server" or "Don't you dare allow more than 4 people in co-op", just that the original design documents came from them. If THEY had stressed the importance of some of what we consider essential, then it's unlikely that so much time would have been misspent. A solid example of what I'm talking about are the character animations. They are absolutely excellent in GRAW, especially the diving and sliding ones. However, as cool as those are, I believe an inordinate amount of time, effort and money was spent on those. If I could choose between super realistic animations and more maps and game-modes or an SADS at release, I would without question choose one of the latter two.

That still doesn't make the customer right all the time..... just me. :)

we'll just have to agree to disagree. the customer is right most of the time. yes you do get customers that will just complain to complain or don't understand what they want or are just stupid but when you get many complaints on similar issues you obviously dropped the ball somewhere. ignoring the complaints will not get you more customers. people that complain are in essence giving you a second chance to fix your product because they like what they see they just think it could be better (customer loyality). The ones that take the time to complain are giving you information about why others that are silent are leaving for your compeditor.

I'm still of the mindset that the customer is almost always right. After all the customer pays your salary. in gaming it's probably less because you are designing a product, but you get to find out if you were right or wrong based on your sales and the people using your product. i think it's pretty clear here with graw.

Maybe we all have it wrong. Maybe Ubisoft is the problem?! The way that GRiN is always on this forum and willing to do what is (mostly) asked, I have come to believe that it isn't them BUT the publisher. It has been OBSERVED in other parts/topics of this forum that the publisher (UBISOFT) is more into the X-Box 360 and such. Until we, as PC gamers, "unite" and tell our "favorite game publisher, developers like "GRiN" are at the mercy of the publishers who "think" they know what we want and who is "buying the games! Just my opinion. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes, obviously we like the game as whole or we wouldnt be here playing it. I personally think with GRAW PC that its kinda 60/40 , 60 good 40 bad... but thing is the 60 isnt just good its GREAT , thats why we're still here. But that 40 is the same way, its not just bad, its horrible and ridiculous.

And, UBI isnt all to blame, theres enough butter on the bread from everyone. I personally think GRIN has alot ot learn and they need to come off their high horse or fantasty land or whatever. I mean, GRAW 360... great, GR1.... great, Raven Shield (and all other R6's except lockdown which is bad)... great, splinter cells... FANTASTIC (especially chaos theory, top drawer,... top drawer) , then GRAW PC... ups and downs. Even at this stage of 1.30 its still BETA. Its not even close to being a finished product.

how bout that GL bug during [GR] guys... hows that coming ? are you at liberty to answer that ? I hate plaing [GR] and firing off a GL and the game goes right to the desktop, yeah... thats fun. I along with many others submitted this bug the VERY first day of beta testing, the beta was updated.. what .. twice ? then the official 1.30 was released... so whats that... 3 updates in like less thant two weeks. the GL issue along witha sleaugh of other bugs never touched. the readme mentioned two or three extremely small bugs that no one even heard of were fixed. Yeah that was a real value of time spent.

I've said it about 5 times so far on here... I cant wait for double agent to come out... GRAW PC will be colecting dust on my shelf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...