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Open Question For The GriN Team


Kingkat
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' date='Sep 19 2006, 07:21 PM' post='422025']

There's a difference between product placement, which the company pays the developer (Axe pays UBI for ads in GRAW) and the developer needing a patented/copyrighted image for the game. It's not like anyone here is going to go out & buy a scar-h, or Zeus rocket launcher, but (hopefully) everyone here buys deodorant.

Still desperately off topic: Depends on what you work with I would say (well deo is perhaps used by all who can afford almost regardless of job). Anyway, I get heaps of military weapon fliers etc due to my job.

Besides, GRIN does not work with mere pictures when they model guns - they have had a full scale model and even the real thing at hand. One could consider it as pure art-

On topic: It can't be that hard to program auto download of mods from server and still have the AC-feature going, can it. I mean, even Enemy Territory got it.

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although more weapons adds fun, it also adds confusion and mistakes in kit selection

i don't think i ever tested all weapons in GR1's ([GR] :grin: ) mods like dark angels etc

One good weapon of every class and some click ons would suffice.

I don't know a flyng fart about weapons anyway, its just something that shoots hehe....

For me there are dozens of priorities before turning the game into an Army depot simulator LOL

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(ahem..........ahem...............cough...cough)

BOT...............I was hoping that GRiN might "take the bait" as it were, and tell us what THEY would like to have in a FPS/Tac Game.

Perhaps they would really like to develope a game on their own, and if it sounded good, I surely would order it from them.

But, whatever, I think the community would love some feedback from the GRiN team about what they see in the future for GRAW.

Besides, if you can get the MP-5.......why not the entire H&K family?

The FN series too..........the FN 2000.........................................ooops, sorry, I digress................

Kingkat

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in fact , most of the time the customer is very wrong.

that explains so much on GRIN's behalf ...

agreed.

Please. This "Customer is always right" bull has no place outside service and sales positions. One of the FIRST things you are taught in any technical job is that the customer is almost never right. They make wild assumptions based upon their own ignorance of the technology or situation and consistantly insist that they are correct. There's a reason you're taught to ask direct, closed questions that the customer can only answer in one of two or three ways as a primary means of gathering information.

The game industry is almost in entirety based upon the understanding that gamers don't know how to build games. Gabe Newell from Valve and many others have stated consistantly that listening to hardcore gamers and implementing everything they request would destroy ANY game. Most suggestions are made without any sense of foresight or understanding of how that idea would affect the balance of the game or any other technical aspects within the code itself. The challenge for game developers is to evaluate what the customer wants, decide what is viable and how to implement that without distorting or unbalancing the gameplay. If you assume every ridiculous suggestion made by a gamer/customer is "Right" then you waste countless hours poring over how to properly implement things that simply cannot work or cannot be done without massive internal changes to the game.

Considering the cost of development for games is now in the millions of dollars (US), the only way to successfully create a game that can turn a profit is to first KNOW what you as a developer want in the game (which yes, comes from what you think the customer wants) and then eventually look with great skepticism at what the customers are demanding. Without that skepticism and critical evaluation of whether or not the customer in that case was "right", games would go way over-budget and likely end up getting cancelled. Even if they managed to ship the game, a mish-mash of ideas from countless customers will generally conflict with one another, resulting in a very poor and unbalanced game.

No, the customer is NOT always right. Get over yourselves and realize that your opinion is not holy and sacrosanct just because you are the all knowing customer.

There are few adages that I hate more than that idiotic phrase.

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So.... Teddy says "You shouldn't care to know what the customer wants.... build something and shove it down their throats".

Wow... I thought only rapists said, "You wanted it...." afterward.

Edit - I changed Ted to Teddy 'cause I think it sounds soft and cuddly.

Edited by kretzj
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in fact , most of the time the customer is very wrong.

that explains so much on GRIN's behalf ...

agreed.

Please. This "Customer is always right" bull has no place outside service and sales positions. One of the FIRST things you are taught in any technical job is that the customer is almost never right. They make wild assumptions based upon their own ignorance of the technology or situation and consistantly insist that they are correct. There's a reason you're taught to ask direct, closed questions that the customer can only answer in one of two or three ways as a primary means of gathering information.

The game industry is almost in entirety based upon the understanding that gamers don't know how to build games. Gabe Newell from Valve and many others have stated consistantly that listening to hardcore gamers and implementing everything they request would destroy ANY game. Most suggestions are made without any sense of foresight or understanding of how that idea would affect the balance of the game or any other technical aspects within the code itself. The challenge for game developers is to evaluate what the customer wants, decide what is viable and how to implement that without distorting or unbalancing the gameplay. If you assume every ridiculous suggestion made by a gamer/customer is "Right" then you waste countless hours poring over how to properly implement things that simply cannot work or cannot be done without massive internal changes to the game.

Considering the cost of development for games is now in the millions of dollars (US), the only way to successfully create a game that can turn a profit is to first KNOW what you as a developer want in the game (which yes, comes from what you think the customer wants) and then eventually look with great skepticism at what the customers are demanding. Without that skepticism and critical evaluation of whether or not the customer in that case was "right", games would go way over-budget and likely end up getting cancelled. Even if they managed to ship the game, a mish-mash of ideas from countless customers will generally conflict with one another, resulting in a very poor and unbalanced game.

No, the customer is NOT always right. Get over yourselves and realize that your opinion is not holy and sacrosanct just because you are the all knowing customer.

There are few adages that I hate more than that idiotic phrase.

Oh yeah you're right. that's why there's more people playing GRAW than playing HL2, BF2, RvS, FEAR, CSS, Quake3, Quake4, UT2004. all 144 of them.

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Oh yeah you're right. that's why there's more people playing GRAW than playing HL2, BF2, RvS, FEAR, CSS, Quake3, Quake4, UT2004. all 144 of them.

If you're going to argue with me, at least do me the courtesy of READING what I said. Find one place in there that I said GRAW was a better game than any of those you listed. Hmm... let me check it again... nope, not there. Not there either.... or there. Funny, I can't seem to find that anywhere. I CAN, however, find the place where I pointed out that folks at Valve stated that you CANNOT listen to and implement everything the hardcore fans want without ruining the game. People at id and and Epic have echoed that sentiment at one point or another. If I must, I'll hunt down those sources again.

Now, what I DID say, for those that were too lazy to read a few paragraphs was this:

The customer is not always right. Bad games get made by listening to everything the customers want and then haphazardly implementing those ideas.

Of course your next argument will be something to do with dedicated servers and GRAW or some other feature that should have been there, and you know what? You're right. There are some ideas/requests/demands that the community serves out that are GREAT ideas and absolutely necessary for a successful game. That doesn't mean that every idea is good, or every customer's opinion is "Right". You have to be able to see the trash for what it is to find the gems hidden within it. That process starts with the assumption that customers are NOT always right and experience tells us that not only are they not always right, they are almost always wrong.

If you're going to argue, argue on what was said. Making things up in an argument only weakens your position.

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So.... Teddy says "You shouldn't care to know what the customer wants.... build something and shove it down their throats".

Wow... I thought only rapists said, "You wanted it...." afterward.

Edit - I changed Ted to Teddy 'cause I think it sounds soft and cuddly.

I do hate to repeat myself, but:

Considering the cost of development for games is now in the millions of dollars (US), the only way to successfully create a game that can turn a profit is to first KNOW what you as a developer want in the game (which yes, comes from what you think the customer wants) and then eventually look with great skepticism at what the customers are demanding. Without that skepticism and critical evaluation of whether or not the customer in that case was "right", games would go way over-budget and likely end up getting cancelled. Even if they managed to ship the game, a mish-mash of ideas from countless customers will generally conflict with one another, resulting in a very poor and unbalanced game.

Why is it when people can't dispute what I'm saying they always try to associate my argument with an illegal and immoral act. Rape? Seriously? That's the best that you've got? Hell, let's go all out and compare me to Hitler or Stalin. You might get a better emotional response if you can link my opinion to torturing babies or kicking puppies.

If you have a counter to what I have said, let's hear it. I'd love to hear why everyone's opinion is "Right". Why a game would be better listening to Gamer A that wants slow moving tactical play and simultaneously listening to Gamer B who wants fast paced action play with robots and lasers. After all, they're both customers. They're both "Right".

So, you want a realistic, down-to-earth show... that's completely off-the-wall and swarming with magic robots?
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Oh yeah you're right. that's why there's more people playing GRAW than playing HL2, BF2, RvS, FEAR, CSS, Quake3, Quake4, UT2004. all 144 of them.

If you're going to argue with me, at least do me the courtesy of READING what I said. Find one place in there that I said GRAW was a better game than any of those you listed. Hmm... let me check it again... nope, not there. Not there either.... or there. Funny, I can't seem to find that anywhere. I CAN, however, find the place where I pointed out that folks at Valve stated that you CANNOT listen to and implement everything the hardcore fans want without ruining the game. People at id and and Epic have echoed that sentiment at one point or another. If I must, I'll hunt down those sources again.

Now, what I DID say, for those that were too lazy to read a few paragraphs was this:

The customer is not always right. Bad games get made by listening to everything the customers want and then haphazardly implementing those ideas.

Of course your next argument will be something to do with dedicated servers and GRAW or some other feature that should have been there, and you know what? You're right. There are some ideas/requests/demands that the community serves out that are GREAT ideas and absolutely necessary for a successful game. That doesn't mean that every idea is good, or every customer's opinion is "Right". You have to be able to see the trash for what it is to find the gems hidden within it. That process starts with the assumption that customers are NOT always right and experience tells us that not only are they not always right, they are almost always wrong.

If you're going to argue, argue on what was said. Making things up in an argument only weakens your position.

I'm a tech and do some sales. The only reason customers call is WHEN they are wrong. Even for a new pc... they go... all i want is the basics and to play games like fear. (note play games... not basic.. mid to high video card)

If a customer called a tech and was right... that means they already fixed the issue as they figured it out. hence they don't call.

I agree to some extent. Some things are great ideas for additions to the game, but some even though sounding good over complicated it.

Like the suggestion (not pointing fingers here... just and example) to implement a language filter in the server settings. Do you know how many languages you can swear in... or the resources required to check every word typed?

Or permissions for certain squad members to only do certain things within the console. Sounds good right? Well what if they implemented it the way i wanted it... but yet another clan has other needs? See doesn't work... every clan is different.

In it's current state GRAW is a great game. They just need to stablize it from adding all the crap that WE asked for.

Save the add-ons and suggestions for an expansion when there is more time to wean it out. Currently we have more maps for MP TVT they GR1 when released We also have siege which didn't come until an expansion in GR1. We have all the makings of a great game if they would just not add WHAT WE WANT, and stabilize what is currently implemented.

We asked for SADS, without video requirements ... we got it. Now i here complaints... why didn't they do it like GR1? Well GR1 required 16mb of ram for a video card TO HOST. We said we didn't want the requirement... so now we have the console. Live with it, we asked for it.

I have to agree with Ted on this. We created this Frankenstein. Now is the time to let Grin stitch it together before it bleeds to death. And that is my rant for the day!

Edited by ROCOAFZ
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I have to agree with Ted on this.

Hey HEY! It's Teddy. Remember, I'm soft and cuddly.

*edited for exact terms used*

Now Ted, I said "Teddy" sounded soft and cuddly. I didn't say you were soft and cuddly.

Look, I believe in a free and open society and in the open-market economic system. A software company has the God/Abraham/Whomever-given right to ignore the consumer and make a product as they see fit.

And I have the right to look at it and spend my money elsewhere. I got suckered into spending $50 on GRAW mostly because it said "Ghost Recon" on the box. Trust me, I'll not make the same mistake twice. GR4 will need some serious "Holy Crap this is awesome" reviews here on GR.net before I buy it.

I strongly disagree with your commentary about how the consumer shouldn't be listened to. I've made a very comfortable living in the IT field, in many roles, by emphasizing "listening to the customer". You may choose a different path, and that's okay. I'm not trying to convert you, I promise.

That's one of the things that makes our country great... You can say whatever you want, I can flippantly respond with dripping sarcasm, you can reply in kind, and then we can all agree to disagree, we put down our shotguns, chug a six-pack of brewskis and watch some NFL football together.

Or, conversely, we just agree to disagree and move on with our lives. Perhaps that option is best in our case, but I'm willing to entertain ideas.... what's your favorite NFL team?

-jk

Callsign Smart######

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I strongly disagree with your commentary about how the consumer shouldn't be listened to. I've made a very comfortable living in the IT field, in many roles, by emphasizing "listening to the customer". You may choose a different path, and that's okay. I'm not trying to convert you, I promise.

I seriously wonder about you people sometimes. Show me where I said the customer shouldn't be listened to. What I SAID was: The customer is NOT always right. I don't understand why that's so difficult for people to comprehend. This is the third time someone has tried to insinuate that I said something other than what I did. Companies should listen to customers. Of course they should, to suggest otherwise would be idiotic. That doesn't mean that companies should agree with everything their customers say or that they should implement or accomodate every single request that is made.

If someone hired you to make a word processing program, then two months from release, well into final testing, they said, "Hey, it'd be nice if this thing could create a database too. We want that added in. We're not going to give you any more money or any more time, but we want that added in." Would you listen to them? Of course. Would you agree to those terms? Of course not.

That's one of the things that makes our country great... ...what's your favorite NFL team?

N...... F... L...?

Yeah, I don't live in your country. Have fun with that though.

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I strongly disagree with your commentary about how the consumer shouldn't be listened to. I've made a very comfortable living in the IT field, in many roles, by emphasizing "listening to the customer". You may choose a different path, and that's okay. I'm not trying to convert you, I promise.

I seriously wonder about you people sometimes. Show me where I said the customer shouldn't be listened to. What I SAID was: The customer is NOT always right. I don't understand why that's so difficult for people to comprehend. This is the third time someone has tried to insinuate that I said something other than what I did. Companies should listen to customers. Of course they should, to suggest otherwise would be idiotic. That doesn't mean that companies should agree with everything their customers say or that they should implement or accomodate every single request that is made.

If someone hired you to make a word processing program, then two months from release, well into final testing, they said, "Hey, it'd be nice if this thing could create a database too. We want that added in. We're not going to give you any more money or any more time, but we want that added in." Would you listen to them? Of course. Would you agree to those terms? Of course not.

That's one of the things that makes our country great... ...what's your favorite NFL team?

N...... F... L...?

Yeah, I don't live in your country. Have fun with that though.

Well, Ted, since your profile wasn't completed to include a location, I made the assumption you might have been an American. Clearly I was in error. I take it back. What sport do you watch on your planet?

Also, a quote from your original post:

Considering the cost of development for games is now in the millions of dollars (US), the only way to successfully create a game that can turn a profit is to first KNOW what you as a developer want in the game (which yes, comes from what you think the customer wants) and then eventually look with great skepticism at what the customers are demanding.

Now, reading that section might tend to push a person in the direction that you're really saying what I posited the first time "I'm going to tell you what you want from a game". But now that I re-read it, I realize your comment didn't really make a lot of sense anyway, since you state the developer's list of things comes from consumer desires as well. Hmm....

I ###### about GRAW not for what is in it, but rather from the fact that they ignored what was already in [GR] and they neglected to bring forward those functions. And no, I'm not saying they should have included an Oracle interface so I could have a database in my game.. I'm talking about simple things like Quick Saves, and perhaps a Mod activate/deactive system. I don't think those two functions are too much to ask for a modern PC-based game.

And yes, I have worked in the software engineering field. I do know about prioritization of requests. I do it all the time. But I listen to the customer to gather those requests upfront, and I prioritize them along with my own internal list of "things to be done". I don't draw up my list first, then ask the customer on the off-chance I might have a few minutes to spare so I can throw a token feature in to appease the peasants.

And NFL is National Football League. Just FYI... the offer for a six pack of brewskis still holds though, if you're up for it.

-jk

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My comment makes perfect sense if you know anything of game development. It is a far, far different field from creating custom applications for specific customers. They don't have the luxury of sitting down with one person or one group from your client's company to get exactly what they want. Instead, they sit down with one person or a group from a publisher who tells them what THEY want.

Major corporations like Ubisoft have people that analyze customer feedback and they do base their ideas on what they think the bulk of their customers want. That of course doesn't mean they're particularly good at their jobs, but if they weren't then GRAW360 probably wouldn't be doing so well, or the Splinter Cell series, or Prince of Persia series... They know where their money is, they know who their primary market is and they know what those people want. The PC Tactical FPS market is a very different beast and in trying to accomodate both groups, companies regularly fail both groups.

Following that, many of the great game makers out there have countless ideas of their own as to what THEY want to have in their game and how THEY want their game to look, feel, etc. Then there are the story-writers as well, the graphics artists, etc. This is an artistic endeavor and however much influence you think customers should have on it, the artists start with what THEY want, what THEY feel will make for a great game. Starting any piece of art from the "What do the customers want?" point of view ends up with the fragmented, pointless, soulless drivel that hollywood ships out time after time.

If anyone ever thought to create a game in the same manner that a custom application was created, the end result would be absolutely horrendous. Sadly though, we're getting more and more games made the same way hollywood movies are made and we all know how that tends to work out. When was the last time you watched a sequel that was better than the original (LotR movies must be excluded from this argument because all three were made before the first was aired)? Why is that? Because the original was started as an artistic creation, largely independant of what they think the customers want and the sequel was created after the success of the first in the exact opposite fashion. The sequel is started by trying to sort out what people liked from the first and going from there, adding in new things you think people will like. In games, sometimes it works (HL2, Q2, BF2 for example), sometimes it doesn't (Lockdown, for example).

As for the NFL deal, yes I know what it is. That was a joke.

I'm Canadian, myself, though considering how regularly offensive I am, many people find that difficult to believe. Sportswise, I don't watch much these days. Stopped watching baseball and hockey when the strike BS started in each. Never cared for football (american or otherwise). Currently fascinated with MMA (UFC, Pride, etc). Oh, and I don't drink beer. Thanks though.

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LMAO .... ###### guys ?

I'm not talking about taking every crackpot idea and everyone thinking they are right... I'm talking about simple communication skills. like "hey we are working on fixing bug A bug B bug C" , or "we took smoke grenades out beucase of problems, they will be put back later" or the near worthless tutorial on the map editor and the screwed up way the editor itself functions.

or when people ask simple direct questions and the questions are totaly avoided or danced around.... or how about coming onto the forums and saying something as idiotic as "the customer is never right" to an entire forum of customers. thats like walking into a room filled with women and saying "women can't drive for crap" .... you'll have about 60 bottles of pepper spray emptied into your eyes.

i could write a book about how i feel on this subject, but thats one drop from the bucket.

you kids fight nice in here

edit: oh yeah.. i cant remember the exact words but didnt Bo call us all a bunch of trolls ?? does UBI know these guys are coming on here and talking like this ? remember, we buy game from UBI, UBI pays GRIN to do work.... we get ###### at GRIN and stop buying GRIN/UBI games, UBI quits contracting GRIN... GRIIN loses $$$$. .... smart

Edited by JasonFMX
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I'm not talking about taking every crackpot idea and everyone thinking they are right... I'm talking about simple communication skills. like "hey we are working on fixing bug A bug B bug C" , or "we took smoke grenades out beucase of problems, they will be put back later" or the near worthless tutorial on the map editor and the screwed up way the editor itself functions.

we communicate more with you people than most developers do and hare happy to do so but we cant go down on a micro level as that would require us to do more writing than working.

or when people ask simple direct questions and the questions are totaly avoided or danced around....

we answer most questions almost straight away except for a few that we CANT answer, not only the ones in the forum but tons on Pms and emails.which is also something most developers wouldnt

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lets go back to car analogies please, it settles the mind and peace

when a manufacturer makes a car it has a chasis and body

by design, an engine and the fancy stuff

a customer is right when he askes if it can be adjusted, better tires rims radio little tweak of the engine maybe

but the customer has to go somewhere else if the engine does not suit him or the body shape does not fit his garage

any complaints about the stock product and estatics are flawed when buying a car, because those are manufacturer choises and they will redirect you to a custom kit car or the next door dealer

that for the car analogy and trying to get back on topic

which has strayed so far of

*i think grin wants the community to be clear in their desires and sound and speak in one voice so they could cater us better*

btw has any one got a job for me ???

Edited by sui317
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off topic:

question, how can the Xbox get those weapons and we don't ?

does ubi buy rights to console and PC weapons seperate ?

or per game ?

so when only one grinner grinned at this question

what kind of landscapes would you like,

the big outdoors can be jungle to savana, snow covered mountains to flat out farmlands

as for me,

i am not a city dweller, so give me openspaces and i will smile :D

And for close combat openable doors and realistic windows instead of all these half torn down buildings....

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lets go back to car analogies please, it settles the mind and peace

when a manufacturer makes a car it has a chasis and body

by design, an engine and the fancy stuff

a customer is right when he askes if it can be adjusted, better tires rims radio little tweak of the engine maybe

but the customer has to go somewhere else if the engine does not suit him or the body shape does not fit his garage

any complaints about the stock product and estatics are flawed when buying a car, because those are manufacturer choises and they will redirect you to a custom kit car or the next door dealer

that for the car analogy and trying to get back on topic

which has strayed so far of

*i think grin wants the community to be clear in their desires and sound and speak in one voice so they could cater us better*

btw has any one got a job for me ???

Hmm car analogies...

The new corvettes and mustangs look NOTHING like the old.

The newer crowd loves them but the older does not.

They are still marketed as Corvettes and Mustangs and are more efficient.

Was the older crowd wrong for wanting them to be the gas hogs of the 60's? Yes times have changed. Emissions are a must and they are way more fuel efficient.

Was the new crowd wrong for liking what the manufacturer put out? Nope.

What if the manufacturers said hey... for free we are going to ship you one of the gear shifters that is compatible , but looks like the old style because you like that. And we'll send you for free a new exhaust although not the same as the old cars will make it sound like it. you just have to install each. This was just to appease the old crowd who is never satisfied until they get there old rusted mustang out of the new sleek streamlined car.

and that is my analogy for today... does the above sound familiar?

Edited by ROCOAFZ
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Hmm car analogies...

The new corvettes and mustangs look NOTHING like the old.

The newer crowd loves them but the older does not.

They are still marketed as Corvettes and Mustangs and are more efficient.

Was the older crowd wrong for wanting them to be the gas hogs of the 60's? Yes times have changed. Emissions are a must and they are way more fuel efficient.

Was the new crowd wrong for liking what the manufacturer put out? Nope.

What if the maufacturers said hey... for free we are going to ship you one of the gear shifters that is compatible , but looks like the old style because you like that. And we'll send you for free a new exhaust although not the same as the old cars will make it sound like it. you just have to install each. This was just to appease the old crowd who is never satisfied until they get there old rusted mustang our of the new sleek streamlined car.

and that is my analogy for today... does the above sound familiar?

NICE!! :D

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