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So Srry to all of the COOP players out there


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Zeroalpha, I don't blame any of what has happened and not happened to GR:AW's COOP and [GR] COOP on you or Colin. You guys did the right thing, you reported what was presented and "promised".

In the end we did get COOP, 4 player max on single player campaign missions. That was ok, nothing like a true robust GR1 COOP, but playable and fun. It was playable and fun because we hung on to hope for the promised COOP. I still don't know how anyone who knows GR1 COOP would think that 4 player max COOP was going to satisfy an audience accustomed to 27 player max COOP (with multiple objectives). I stopped playing GR1 with my group because I loved the new GR:AW environments. GR:AW does do a lot of things well, but also falls short in many places. I played GR:AW knowing that it was flawed, but it was the promise of the robust COOP that kept me going. I hate the silly video windows, floating mini maps, and cross-comm garbarge, but I don't mind that much as long as I can mod that cluttered garbage off of my view. Then it actually begins to feel more like a "new Ghost Recon".

The [GR] COOP mode for GR:AW was a good step in the right direction, but nothing like what true robust COOP should be. Firefight and Recon are nothing more than "COOP" modes. The lure of COOP is to be able to play complex missions with multiple objectives and in a nonlinear approach. It is the lure of working as a team made up of multiple squads of your friends using "real world tactics". The [GR] COOP mode at least for now can not support true custom mission building with multiple objectives, since it only has two modes (Firefight and Recon, no Mission) As a Beta tester, I saw all of this, but understood that I was looking at a beta. I reported all of my findings and suggestions, as did every other beta tester. Is the Firefight and Recon with 12+ players fun, sure it is. Is it anything like playing a real [Ghost Recon] 12+ player COOP mission (with no respawn)?...No, not at all.

Maybe GRIN will be doing some more patch work for GR:AW's COOP/[GR] COOP? If we're lucky we'll see an expansion pack with all of the "promised" COOP features. I'll still play GR:AW's [GR] COOP mode and I'll try to squeeze as much as I can out of it. Who knows maybe a patch will come out with the true robust COOP features that made GR1 so great. However, I'm now really pinning my hopes on Armed Assault's 60+ COOP with tremendous modding support and missions.

silent_op

Edited by silent_op
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27 player co-op??????? GR1 didn't have that. A modder made a change that would allow it... but Redstorm Never designed it that way nor supported it.

GR1 max without mod was 9. You could only fill out one of the 5 squads.

And just to throw this in for a histories sake... check the pc section ... for Ghost Recon 1

http://www.ghostrecon.com/us/product_gr.php#pc

And i quote...

- 5 dedicated muli-player maps.

It only had 5 maps on release for mp use!!!

Granted there were more game modes and the same 5 worked in all.

You all need to go back and play the original without mods. Who is to say GRAW can't be modded to support more. Grin is just saying they can't (either money or time wise) support over 4, just as redstorm never supported over 9.

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27 player co-op??????? GR1 didn't have that. A modder made a change that would allow it... but Redstorm Never designed it that way nor supported it.

ROCO, maybe you should play a bit more coop? :P

PXS and AlphaSquad and others have been playing 27 person coop firefights and defends for about 3 years. Missions with 27 have been around for probably 2 years now. It does not require any "special mods", in fact it is done with server sided game types and missions. Most of the original (no mods) GR missions can be converted to support play with 27 friendies in coop with no more than an hour of effort in Igor -- obviously there are some limitations and complexities depending on how the mission was designed.

I only digress to explain this point, because this is the basis that the GR coop community is comming from. The people who have been playing this way are the people that ZeroAlpha and Colin were speaking to when they reported their discussions with Grin and Ubi reps.

Now back on topic, you are qite correct that Red Storm did not design for this, but if you look closely at the documentation they provided you can see that they clearly left the door open to allow this to happen. The news that ZeroAlpha and Colin forwarded to the community was that Grin was in fact leaving this same type of door open. Well time has passed, and it now turns out that this door was closed, locked, and funiture piled up behind it. That is the frustration that you see in this thread.

I've expressed that I hold no ill will toward either Colin or ZeroAlpha over any of this. in fact I am very proud of their stand-up attitude on the whole issue. Beyond that I have done my best to explain the technical issues that I believe support ZeroAlpha's original post and help those not involved in the coop community understand why these limitations may well be near fatal flaws for the coop community.

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This thread is overly pointless anymore.

Hunny, whether or not this thread is pointless or not is not up to you - its up to the Admins - and you ain't one.

So park the attitude and let the community speak.

Hey sunny, from what I have seen you have had a tendency to be short on ears and long on Mouth...As a member of the comunity she has the rite to say what she feels like. So take your own advise and park the attitude.

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And just to throw this in for a histories sake... check the pc section ... for Ghost Recon 1

http://www.ghostrecon.com/us/product_gr.php#pc

And i quote...

- 5 dedicated muli-player maps.

It only had 5 maps on release for mp use!!!

Granted there were more game modes and the same 5 worked in all.

Forgetting something? You know, those 15 "other" maps... :rolleyes:

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This thread is overly pointless anymore.

Hunny, whether or not this thread is pointless or not is not up to you - its up to the Admins - and you ain't one.

So park the attitude and let the community speak.

Respect my friend respect, calling a woman "hunny" is downright un gentleman like and crude. No need to resort to that kind of disrespect.

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(...)

@ToW_Angel- In re-reading my earlier post replying to you, I think I came off a little more harsh than was necessary. Just cuz you weren't in here before GR2 was a wet dream doesn't mean you don't have something to offer. I still agree you should pick-up [GR] w/expansions, get DA49 <-- Ouch! Rabbi is glitching! w00t , HX5, AlphaMod (w/StandardUpgrade), and see firsthand exactly what greatness the modders are really capable of when they feel the love.

(...)

@RAbbi- SHUT UP FOOLIO! <-- lol :P

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This thread is overly pointless anymore.

Hunny, whether or not this thread is pointless or not is not up to you - its up to the Admins - and you ain't one.

So park the attitude and let the community speak.

Uh... 3 things...

First, please do not call me Hunny...

Secondly, you missed a very important "KEY WORD"... It's the very last word in the sentence...

This thread is overly pointless anymore.

And lastly... I was asking for a plea to everyone to allow this particular thread to die into the depths of GR.net.

Edited by ToW-Angel
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I like the new features, they are great. Hopefully, people will build some terrific [GR] coop maps.

What about building new SP and/or coop missions or campaigns? The best part of GR was the modded missions produced from Igor. I don't see anything in the patch like that. I may be wrong.

Kurtz (and I will state this now so there is NO chance of it being misread, YES I am amazed at your total lack of understanding) did you actually read ANY of the previous posts ??????

This WHOLE thread is about the blo0dy Modded Co-op missions like those produced from IGOR and the lack of them in GR:AW.

Gah! Truly... I give up :wall:

you can make both SP and coop missions, tho only for 4 players.

Willie,

Thats the point here....we can not do tourneys with this game.....you guys messed up big time. If you can fix this then do it if you can't say so. It has been hinted that it could be done but would cost a lot.

And for those that are posting here that have never been in a co-op tourney ..... stay out of it... you look like fools not knowing what your talking about.

I am sad... Just sad...

Never really tried AW to the max. Only played some games at a friends rig. Though I read a lot here, and it always kept my interrest. Just with the idea I wouldn't get too far behind when I got my new rig.

Now I am not that sure anymore. I just hope GRIN can pull another bunny out of their hat like they did with the "Mitchell dies feature".

Without COOP MISSIONS AW has no interest for me.

Toniezz... out...

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' date='Sep 13 2006, 01:37 PM' post='419772']

Respect my friend respect, calling a woman "hunny" is downright un gentleman like and crude. No need to resort to that kind of disrespect.

Par for the course, there.

Guess I was raised with manners and how to be a gentleman. I see crud like that coming out of a so called man, makes me cringe. What the heck happened with some simple human decency and respect!

/soap box

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27 player co-op??????? GR1 didn't have that. A modder made a change that would allow it... but Redstorm Never designed it that way nor supported it.

ROCO, maybe you should play a bit more coop? :P

PXS and AlphaSquad and others have been playing 27 person coop firefights and defends for about 3 years. Missions with 27 have been around for probably 2 years now. It does not require any "special mods", in fact it is done with server sided game types and missions. Most of the original (no mods) GR missions can be converted to support play with 27 friendies in coop with no more than an hour of effort in Igor -- obviously there are some limitations and complexities depending on how the mission was designed.

I only digress to explain this point, because this is the basis that the GR coop community is comming from. The people who have been playing this way are the people that ZeroAlpha and Colin were speaking to when they reported their discussions with Grin and Ubi reps.

Now back on topic, you are qite correct that Red Storm did not design for this, but if you look closely at the documentation they provided you can see that they clearly left the door open to allow this to happen. The news that ZeroAlpha and Colin forwarded to the community was that Grin was in fact leaving this same type of door open. Well time has passed, and it now turns out that this door was closed, locked, and funiture piled up behind it. That is the frustration that you see in this thread.

I've expressed that I hold no ill will toward either Colin or ZeroAlpha over any of this. in fact I am very proud of their stand-up attitude on the whole issue. Beyond that I have done my best to explain the technical issues that I believe support ZeroAlpha's original post and help those not involved in the coop community understand why these limitations may well be near fatal flaws for the coop community.

Um doesn't converted mean modded?... as in not out of the box?

Anyhow what i am saying is that although Grin doesn't support it... doesn't mean it can't be done... as was the case with GR1 and redstorm.

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I want to note that while I did have Mathieu Girard sit in with Bo and I for a bit and that he did leave us to our own affair (the interview) for almost the entire 6 hours I spent with Bo. Sure, we had to chat in the Ubi press booth, but we were able to talk about the game and gamers concerns any way we wanted. The caveat, I had to submit my interview/report to Mathieu for review prior to posting. No big deal. Mathieu even let me release some news the regular gaming press and sites didn't get. Score another point for the fansites of the gaming world.

I admit, I am a bit disappointed in how Coop turned out (even though I do not have the game or have not even tried it). I know I tried to impress upon Bo that we wanted more than 8 teammates for the game and that 4 was to few. Still, I do not fault Bo or GRIN for what was happened and I will tell you why. Bo had executive producers from Ubi that had bosses to answer to who told them this is what was needed, They got this information from other bosses who ultimately got their information from the marketing department who said that gamers seem to want games with hero characters and no large teams much to the detriment of gamers who stated otherwise. Where did they get these stats? From sales reports for games that alreay had such features. Ubi saw all that data and thought erronously that fans of Ghost Recon wanted a hero character and a smaller team.

GRIN, faced with orders from Ubisoft to create a game with such features did. GRAW having a 4 character team in SP is the limiting factor for MP missions. Is it a fault of the engine used? I don't know as it seems to support a large enough amount of enemy AI so it would also show that it could support a few more for team AI. That would or even could transfer to the Coop community who want 8 or more members for missions.

I wonder if GRIN could rework it so GRAW has a larger SP team (this may involve a complete rewrite of code and could be rather expensive though) so that we could have a larger MP missions team for Coop.

As far as community, it is ever evolving. Sure, some of us here on Staff have been here a very long time and some of us will most likely be here til the very end (if Rocky ever decides to hang up his hat and not run fansites anymore). Whether we are old or new members, we all have something in common, a love for a game frachise that is evolving too. The trouble is, we older fans hoped for a game that included the old stuff while including new stuff instead of getting a completely new game. This is what happened and not any one fan's fault that new fans like the new game even though they have not really played the old one to understand why it was important to have said features in the new game.

Rabbi, DA9 is taboo around here. Never ever again recommend anyone get that abomination here. Thank you.

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Sorry. Aside from the womanizing, I enjoyed the unmentionable mod. Though I've long felt AlphaMod was the most professionally-executed mod made for GR (at least that I've seen). Cobra Attacks was fun, ina being-a-kid-again sort of way.

While we're at it, please lock this bad motorscooter. It served its purpose, as well as several purposes for which it was not intended. That's never good 'round these parts.

But since it hasn't already been locked, I doubt it ever will.

A simple request (yesm, I'm completely off-topic here) if I may: someone of STAFF or ADMIN stature please get hold of me offline (if WK77 was actually SERIOUS) and explain to me how we can spend half a thread bashing a specific person but not express a little admiration for a simple GR mod. Unless it violates someone's LAWS, I have a problem with this...

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A simple request (yesm, I'm completely off-topic here) if I may: someone of STAFF or ADMIN stature please get hold of me offline (if WK77 was actually SERIOUS) and explain to me how we can spend half a thread bashing a specific person but not express a little admiration for a simple GR mod. Unless it violates someone's LAWS, I have a problem with this...

WK77 was indeed very serious. A little search with those 2 letters in our forum can give you the light. END OF OFF-TOPIC.

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DA49 is a mod that contains "stolen" material that means stuff from other modders was taken but without permission. You won't find it here on gr.net, 3d retreat, theplatoon or other sites. We aren't supporting this mod.

Dated long time ago. Several of those around here. Hence the not-repeating-myself-yet-again thing. Got it.

And in the future your royal whiteness, I'll kindly ask you to NOT presume to give instructions to me that I've not specifically asked you for. That was rude, as I obviously wasn't aware of the issue with the unmentionable mod.

And I will from this point on repsect GR.net's stand on the issue. What someone did with that was despicable. You modders work too hard on this stuff for that kind of disrespect...

EDIT: removed one inappropriate reference of mine in this thread. If you know of any others (I think I brought it up one other time) please let me know so I may have the opportunity to right myself. Had I known...

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Um doesn't converted mean modded?... as in not out of the box?

Anyhow what i am saying is that although Grin doesn't support it... doesn't mean it can't be done... as was the case with GR1 and redstorm.

Roco, I think you are misunderstanding the root of the COOP disapointment. When we say things like GR1 had 27 player COOP, it did. Yes, GR1 did come with 9 player COOP straight out of the box and not 9+. However that was also about 5 years ago. 9 player COOP was super then and bumping it up to 27 max was even more so amazing. GR1 also had COOP with multiple objectives that could be done in a non-linear fashion, straight out of the box. Since this was also about 5 years ago, 9 player COOP and especially 4 player can not possibly live up to what people would expect from a new Ghost Recon's COOP today. The fact that UBI clearly never understood their GR1 COOP audience of 5 years strong is what makes GR:AW's initial 4 player linear mission COOP such a mess.

With the 1.30 patch, we now have 12 player slots with the possibility to have maybe up to 32 players in [GR] COOP mode. The problem is [GR] COOP mode isn't really "[GR]" at all. The Firefight and Recon are fun. With tango AI work from modders like JasonFMX and custom made maps from our modding community, those 2 modes will be even better. But [GR] COOP mode does not allow for custom built "[GR]" style missions. It is the mission aspect of COOP play that makes COOP what it is to a COOP fan. Firefights, Recons, and even Defends are great fun, but the custom missions are where the real action and suspense await. I think you know this already as well.

I'm not knocking GRIN or Bo, only UBI. GRIN has kept every promise in terms of their patch work. We got COOP straight out of the box and now we finally have 12 player (3 squads) [GR] COOP. In both cases the COOP seemed to miss the obvious small bits that make COOP, well Original Ghost Recon. I can only blame UBI for being so blind to their own diamond glittering before their very eyes.

GR:AW will do fine in time, but it will most likely never have the longevity of GR1. As I said before, I'll play GR:AW and squeeze as much as I can get out of it. With the current patches GR:AW is not as flawed as originally shipped.

silent_op

Edited by silent_op
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In the end we did get COOP, 4 player max on single player campaign missions. That was ok, nothing like a true robust GR1 COOP, but playable and fun. It was playable and fun because we hung on to hope for the promised COOP....

silent_op

Frankly I was a little bit nervous that their might be more than four players on the GRAW single player campaign missions because I was begining to feel that four people could and should handle all of the single player maps and adding 12 people to these maps would mean less kills per round for me.

PoPs

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I have a quick question to anyone in GRIN (or who actually knows)... and this is a sincere inquiry:

Is the GRAW Engine capable of supporting more that 4 players with the SP maps? I've never actually seen confirmation if this is so... it would sure end alot of posting-debates I'm sure.

BTW, [GR] Mode is great, we just need more maps :thumbsup:

Edited by Darklighter
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Fundamentally I think the differences and the disappointment in GRAW stem from 'possibility' -- when anything: a relationship, a novel, a film, a game, even your job ceases to exists for you in terms of it's possibilities and instead primarily exists in terms of limitations -- most people become frustrated, disappointed, estranged, disenfranchised, or even angry...

[Ghost Recon] came with more level designs, depicting wildly varying settings then sets in an epic block-buster movie... Rich in detail, complex Foley, atmospheric weather and monochromatic light effects; [GR]'s maps alone were a testament of possibility... But there was more, a lot more: more game modes then all other realism shooters at it's release offered combined! More weapons, more game features, more detail... The list goes on...

Sophisticated real time tactical way-pointing, a fundamental game design and theme that made every replay a new experience that allowed vastly and completely different approaches to game-play with each replay -- from 'balls-to-the-walls and hairy solo assaults', to 'don't be spotted or leave a trace in achieving your objective'; no killing required... Ghost Recon was the only game that could replicate the game-play of just about any other realism game, even those that appeared five years later -- yet never needed to because it set a standard.

Then there's [GR]'s mod capability that probably by both design and chance happened to allow an almost idea depth of mod capability, opening the door to nearly a quarter of a million mods and total conversions while keeping a familiar and internally consistent level of realism across the retail game, mods and total conversions.

GRAW by contrast has one setting (Mexico City), one aesthetic (Urban, Mexico City), limits to squad strength (four men), limits to objective approach (linear objective path play), limits to the kind of tactics (high volume killing/inflicted casualty required as part the objective)... There's little stealth (other then stealthy killing), none of the advanced/alternative game modes, and no where near the depth and variation of game-play possibility...

Another conspicuous limitation is GRAW's limited modable feature set and the ease with which it can be modded. Though there's still room for hope here; at least one decisive tool to modding (a DXE Decompiler) remains out of reach as the only individual with the talent and ambition to create one has fallen off the radar for some months without a word...

There is a lot to love about GRAW PC, it a unique game, with unique new perspective on realistic weapon handling, player movement, and all-around game feel. The Diesel engine is capable of some incredible effects, detail, and while not presently accessible to modding, appears to be technically very mod capable...

All that said, I like GRAW, but could like it a lot more -- and perhaps if and when mods are able to exploit more of it's capability we might realize something new in terms of what the game offers, rather then what it doesn't... For example: due to some of the advanced render capabilities it's obviously going to push the net-code too hard to put a lot of players in a game together, but perhaps four is enough if each man can control a squad of AI... That could make for some really spectacular COOP I should think, even if it is just four real players.

It appears that GRAW's render design is geared for BSP like render limitations, i.e. vis constrained urban settings rather then large sprawling LSS outdoor settings. If that's the case, mod tools allowing; perhaps it's would be more effective to take GRAW mods along a path closer to Rogue Spear then it's namesake -- Ghost Recon...

All in all, whatever the longer term outcome with GRAW -- I'm glad we have it, glad it has shaped up as well as it has, and I feel fortunate from what I'm reading that there was a team like GRIN behind it.

sadeyes.gif

Edited by Waika
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