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So Srry to all of the COOP players out there


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mission editor ?

need i say more ?

and duh how often do i have to say it. if you have no tools, you can make them like nemon did with the unbundler

there are a lot of creative and capable people around

i just don't see that much comming from them, all they want is things on silver platters presented by bo himself (yesterday) with all humble and courtious behaviour

[GR] editor, again, [GR] editor, and again ?

thought this was public knowledge

*there are also very good modders and creative people that are very constructive around here, no disrespect to them*

(i think graw was made for modders, it just takes time to get the tools out)

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All I see is drama over nothing.

Unless you want to consider Pacman, Invaders, and some of those other/old games, I've never seen a game ready out of the box... that's why I don't understand some comments here that say that [GR] was ready and rocked uppon release.

Americas Army is one of the biggest games, competition wise, and it took 3 years to be decent, and it's still growing... If you love [GR] so much, keep playing it, nothing wrong there. Now don't trash a game that has potential just because you want a specific thing.

My 2 cents

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What i find weird...this is only my observation but...

During the beta testing...i was the only one who posted about making [GR] style co-op maps. There could have been peeps doing it but none posted.

It seems that if this was soo important then there should have been more testing it. Like i said...this is just my observation/opinion!

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' date='Sep 12 2006, 01:52 PM' post='419014']

Wow, ever since Bo posted this thread went right down the crapper LOL!

You know the reason for that?

Because basically if you look at the whole thread then his post is the most distrespectful of the lot. Up till that point a decent, flame free discussion was taking place. Then a CEO of a company steps in and starts throwing TROLL comments around because people are stating an opinion he doesn't like.

On the other hand, of course, I'm sure if someone was calling -you- a liar, you wouldn't consider that post particularly disrespectful and you'd naturally respond with kindness and graciousness... If you're going to hate, at least don't let it be blind hate. He was attacked first. Whether you consider it justified or not is another question, but let's not play like no one was disrespectful to him.

Then as a mature adult he should have contacted an admin or the person directly and not post a reply calling people TROLLS.

Dai San little friend I just said "We love you trolls" no disrespect in that.

Bo my little bud, unfortunately that was not your only words otherwise it would not be an issue.

You started your post off with.

Buhuuu
Implying people are crying or whining.

Then went on with.

But now that ZeroAlpha feed the trolls I guess we need to do it a bit different.
Which implies that people replying to his post in an positive manner are Trolls.

You may want to read this definition of Troll before you say there is no disrespect intended too my friend.

Wikipedia definition:

In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy or antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion, including the personal attack of calling others trolls. Often, trolls assume multiple aliases, or sock puppets.

Edited by Dai-San
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What i find weird...this is only my observation but...

During the beta testing...i was the only one who posted about making [GR] style co-op maps. There could have been peeps doing it but none posted.

It seems that if this was soo important then there should have been more testing it. Like i said...this is just my observation/opinion!

sorry i did try but just can not work with this editor (yet)

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What i find weird...this is only my observation but...

During the beta testing...i was the only one who posted about making [GR] style co-op maps. There could have been peeps doing it but none posted.

It seems that if this was soo important then there should have been more testing it. Like i said...this is just my observation/opinion!

sorry i did try but just can not work with this editor (yet)

Please dont take that post wrong...it was really meant for people who have been making maps. I understand some people are still learning the editor. I spent 3 full days messing with it when it first came out just to get the hang of it. I pick up on this stuff pretty quick too.

I know of a bunch of map makers (ones that have made many maps)that were in the beta testing process but for whatever reason...there didnt seem to be much interest in making [GR] style co-op maps.

Anyways...keep plugin away at the editor and if you have any questions...please feel free to ask me. I am always glad to help when i can..!

Also..let me add... i know a few peeps were trying to use the editor and was having problems getting the editor to just start....i am excluding you from my posts... ;)

Edited by }PW{ Postal
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What i find weird...this is only my observation but...

During the beta testing...i was the only one who posted about making [GR] style co-op maps. There could have been peeps doing it but none posted.

It seems that if this was soo important then there should have been more testing it. Like i said...this is just my observation/opinion!

Not at you postal

I can work with this editor and Scripting language but reading this thread, I wonder why O why do Grin put up with the S*H#t that is posted. It's worse that being back at school in the playground. Grin has given you the tools & tutorial to make your own maps/ missions and you cry it's not good enough, I want Grin Map, I want Grin missions, I want, I want... Well keep crying cos' the more you cry the less you get..... or don't you remember that lesson from a long time ago.

Yes I agree with Grin's comment Trolls, Feed the trolls.... If you don't like it then try to work with them, telling Grin their product is a load of PooH would ###### anyone off. This whole thread is utter slop ! (well 95% of it). I honestly think 95% of you must be 12 and under and remember Grin are the Guests and you are the Host, I'm amazed they are still here....

Close the thread, waste of time

viii

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The only good thing that has come of this thread is that hopefully i have enlightened a few peeps on what can be done when the next patch comes out. If thats the case...i am glad to help...if not...im sorry..i tried.

Thanks for not including me in that Viiiper...ive just been trying to help peeps understand!

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Well this thread has certainly attracted some attention. The thing that I belive ZeroAlpha and others find frustrating (myself included) is that we were apparently mislead to belive that Grin understood the desires of the coop communiy and was activly working to satisfy those desires. The comment made by Bo asserting that a simple XML tweak woul allow more than 4 players in coop really did silence a lot of objections for quite a while.

Well many people have tried to overcome this 4 player limitation and found that it is not possible with the tools and documentationthat has been provided so far. When we were told that these issues would be addressed "over the summer" everyone sat back and waited. There was a bit of concern expressed when there was talk of what "[GR] coop" mode would be, but people waited politely. Then many people involved in the final Beta process (myself included) got to see what what was offered, and we were not pleased. We were handed an extremely simplistic game type that as many have pointed out does not even rival the GR firefight or recon modes -- tangos are in predictable locations, they are non-responsive, there are no oppritunities for stealth. But we said ok, let's see what we can do with the tools we have been given, and sadly the answer seems to be not much.

With GR/Igor I had a compete scripting language with a reference manual provided by the developer. Igor had an effective editor for this language integrated in it. The AI was instructable in a variety of ways so to make missions dynamic, and when combined with the ability to do things based on random numbers in scripts it was not difficult for people to develop missions with a very high level of replayability. GRAW has a scripting language, but to the best of my knowledge it remains extremely primitive when compared to GR. Other then being able to tell tangos where to go, I have not seen how to pass any other instructions to tangos. And I see no tool for injecting any randomness into a mission.

These are serious limitations. There are others I am unsure of. I think it is possible to create things that look/behave like objectives, but I have not yet seen any way for a script to effectively keep track of mission state (e.g. flags from GR/Igor), so I have no clue if it iwill even be possible to score/end a missions properly upon completion of the objectives. I have not seen any way to control the agressivness of tangos. Without being able to do this, it is very difficult to make missions that encourage or reward stealth. So far I have not seen any variables of any type (other than block enables) in any GRAW mission "scripts" -- without the ability for a script to keep track of internal state it becomes VERY difficult to produce interesting/realistic non-linear missions. Maybe this is a fundamental limitation of the game engine in use here, and that is why the SP campaign is so linear?

Grin/Ubi is more than welcome to explain to us that thay are not interested in supporting this type of play/development, and I'll happily move on. However the apparent lack of honesty that has been expressed regarding the "simple XML tweak for more than 4" and assurances regarding what "[GR] coop" would be are going to leave a very bad taste in many peoples mouths.

Finally, if you would like to learn about coop mission play please consider visiting http://alpha.websmart.ro/forums/index.php/board,43.0.html to see discussion, briefings, missions and the like for the most recent Alpha Squad tournament. If you would like to learn more or give it a try visit http://alpha.websmart.ro/forums/index.php/topic,277.0.html where you can get instructions on joining our public GR server, you may be surprised at what you discover.

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I have not seen any way to control the agressivness of tangos.

This is taken right from the tutorial for [GR] style co-op. It depends on which ones you choose!

Under human you will find a number of different types of groups. Not all should be used, the ones that should are:

Guerilla Least deadly

Mex_guerilla_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_sniper

Infantry Deadly

Mex_infantry_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_sniper

Special Forces Really deadly

Mex_special_forces_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_silent_ops1,2,3,4

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I have not seen any way to control the agressivness of tangos.

This is taken right from the tutorial for [GR] style co-op. It depends on which ones you choose!

Under human you will find a number of different types of groups. Not all should be used, the ones that should are:

Guerilla Least deadly

Mex_guerilla_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_sniper

Infantry Deadly

Mex_infantry_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_sniper

Special Forces Really deadly

Mex_special_forces_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_silent_ops1,2,3,4

Nice post!

Are you able to set them to bored in game then back to aggressive? I cant find anything here!

Tinker

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I only have this to say, until Ubi gets their collective heads out of their collective derriers

Could we get a swear filter that changes 'ubi' to Grin and Ubisoft? As much as Ubi's in charge, this is STILL Grin's product. What you dislike AND what you like is thanks to both, not just Ubi. Oftentimes actually more the fault of Grin.

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I have not seen any way to control the agressivness of tangos.

This is taken right from the tutorial for [GR] style co-op. It depends on which ones you choose!

Under human you will find a number of different types of groups. Not all should be used, the ones that should are:

Guerilla Least deadly

Mex_guerilla_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_guerilla_sniper

Infantry Deadly

Mex_infantry_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_infantry_sniper

Special Forces Really deadly

Mex_special_forces_patrol1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_heavy1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_recon1,2,3,4

Mex_special_forces_silent_ops1,2,3,4

Nice post!

Are you able to set them to bored in game then back to aggressive? I cant find anything here!

Tinker

You can have them idle! With some scripting you might be able to change this. If not there is a work around.

Have the guy thats idle...then when a player gets to a certain spot or what ever...set the script to remove the idle AI and put in a aggressive one. This might work...but you would have to get the timings right so you didnt notice...hehe illusions are great..hehe

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You can have them idle! With some scripting you might be able to change this. If not there is a work around.

Have the guy thats idle...then when a player gets to a certain spot or what ever...set the script to remove the idle AI and put in a aggressive one. This might work...but you would have to get the timings right so you didnt notice...hehe illusions are great..hehe

@Postal, I've seen this and experimented with it. However it is NOT what I was talking about. These are different tangos (they have different uniforms) that have different "skill" levels. This is NOT the ability to change the level of aggression of a tango in game as a result of actions taken by players, and that is what I was talking about. Using "spawn tricks" as you are experimenting with are in general a very dangerous way to get functionality. They force you to linearize the script and control movment of players to prevent them from seeing the things you donot want them to see. And if your script needs to force players to certain locations then you really are not letting the player decide where to go and how to approach th emissions, which detracts from the entire experience.

I do not wish to drag this discussion off topic any further, I was simply trying to explain what I understand to be the current state of affairs and to compare that to GR/Igor to help put ZeroAlpha's original point about misrepresentations into context. This is not the place for technical discussions.

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well, this really isnt off topic cause its about co-op and OP was talking about co-op. I could build a mission right now where the players have choices of objectives that would not be linear . Its not hard..even for me. Im not gonna go into detail cause it would be very time consuming and more than likly be pointless cause people are only going to see what they wanna see. We do need more info on what we can and cant do with scripting but to say things arent possible without knowing for sure is wrong.

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You can have them idle! With some scripting you might be able to change this. If not there is a work around.

Have the guy thats idle...then when a player gets to a certain spot or what ever...set the script to remove the idle AI and put in a aggressive one. This might work...but you would have to get the timings right so you didnt notice...hehe illusions are great..hehe

@Postal, I've seen this and experimented with it. However it is NOT what I was talking about. These are different tangos (they have different uniforms) that have different "skill" levels. This is NOT the ability to change the level of aggression of a tango in game as a result of actions taken by players, and that is what I was talking about. Using "spawn tricks" as you are experimenting with are in general a very dangerous way to get functionality. They force you to linearize the script and control movment of players to prevent them from seeing the things you donot want them to see. And if your script needs to force players to certain locations then you really are not letting the player decide where to go and how to approach th emissions, which detracts from the entire experience.

I do not wish to drag this discussion off topic any further, I was simply trying to explain what I understand to be the current state of affairs and to compare that to GR/Igor to help put ZeroAlpha's original point about misrepresentations into context. This is not the place for technical discussions.

There are times you need to force players into a situation and there are times there is not a need... I think this is left up to the mission/map maker... You turn a corner and HOLY CRAP! Other times there is nothing.

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:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

Some people just like to stir things up and try to get a reaction out of people or like to look at things with the glass is empty perspective..

I personally choose to try to figure out how we can make things work , glass half if not full.

for instance.. there might be a tool built in the new patch that would allow AlphaSquad to release maps\missions the day of..

Maybe adpat the current rules of the CO-OP tourney's... I understand it to be a points system based on completing certain tasks and losing point for deaths.. All this can still be done.. shoot these three tanks and kill the halo .. then make it to the extraction point.. If a team member exits early before you complete all the tasks in the amount of time.. you only add up the tasks they completed.. all this can be done with 12 Ghosts...

But mind you most, not all, of the DEDICATED CO-OP people would rather ###### then try to figuer things out..

Almost make you ask yourself.. why even try to help them out? Because of the few that see the glass as almost full or potientially over flowing.. I guess...

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(*** NOTE: This is my personal opinion and in no way reflects the position or stand point of www.ghostrecon.net or Team [GRNET].)

Okay here goes...

I have said, from the beginning, that the only thing Ghost Recon ([GR]) and Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter (GRAW) have in common are the words 'Ghost Recon' in the title. These are two completeley different games. Gameplay AND technology wise.

It appears that we have two distinct groups here.

--Those that have played [GR] previously

--And those who have never played [GR] and are comming into the GRAW scene.

The [GR] players want a new version of [GR] with better graphics but with the same game playbility and features.

While the GRAW-only people want the things that make the game more playable and friendly.

I am sure GRIN has a really good idea about what they want in the game and what they dont. Here are the three plausible ways they could go.

1. They simply dont want to add a certain item or multiple items to the game. Why? Artistic or personal reasons.

A lot of what is in the game has come from their personal experiences and they might feel like they just dont want it there. It might not mesh or be fluid with the style of the game that the DEVS want to achieve.

2. They CANT put it in. If they have not allowed themselves to be as flexible with programming as fan thinks they should have been (not that this is the case here :) ) they may not be able to add those desired features. The engine may not be able to cope, or whatever.

3. They may be in the works as we speak. Who knows how far GRIN is going with GRAW. They might be adding those desired features to be released in the future.

No matter which group you fall into, keep in mind that these are two different games.

IF you want an [GR] with better graphics. Sorry. They more than likely arent going to deliver. So just play [GR]. It still kicks ass!

IF you want a GRAW that could be better by means of game play and coop... good luck beating it out of GRIN and Ubi$oft. But keep in mind if it does happen, these things can take time. Good luck ;)

No matter what happens, with either game, both are fun and enjoyable in their own rights. Play them for what they are, not what they could be and you'll enjoy yourself and the friends you play with 110% more than you have already.

If you just arent satisfied with GRAW, do us all a favor and use a little tact before posting. If you have a complaint, bring a possible solution to the table a long with it. People are 100% more likely to listen to you when you do.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

FOR THE RECORD:

To ZeroAlpha, Teammates stick together. I got your back bro.

To anyone who wants to complain abot AZ's post, I say this. I believe with his post, he has cleared the air about what has happened. Nothing more, nothing less. He obviously feels bad about relaying misinformation. But how can he be held responsible for giving us information that came from the lead dev? It was not AZ and Colin who were wrong. They simply did their jobs and relayed the information. And did it well. If Bill Gates said that Windows Vista was going to be stable? whould you believe him? ... uh... okay bad example, but you get my point. GRIN told them wrong, they told US wrong, and now they are apologizing for it. I am more pisse dthat this apology hasnt come from GRIN in the first place!!!!!!!!

Much respect to AZ and Colin.

To GRIN, When you demean your fanbase, you lose your fan base. I expect a formal apology from Bo to the members of this forum for the tactless post. Some people have class, most dont. I expect more from a fellow soldier, no matter what country they are from. The word 'Soldier' is synonymous with Honor and Dignity. Instead of retorting with verbal garbage, man up and do the right thing. I hope you do.

And on a GRAW note, how about letting your fanbase know through Press Briefing or whatever, what the next update has and doesnt have sooner than the day befor its release. Also let us know what features GRIN cant or dont want to add such as more than 4 players. Openess and honesty goes a long way. Simply doing that will keep some of these uber-fans at bay for a bit. Please seriously consider this.

To the members of this forum who insesantly post useless junk. Stop! You bring us all down.

Respectfully,

SierraNovember6

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I think some attention needs to be paid here... I'm about to say something enlightening to everyone...

You already know that the community is angry, that people have some very fragile egoes and it doesn't take much to stir something up...

What people have been doing consistently and constantly is this...

Poking a stick into an already angry hornets nest, then not expect some form of fallout from doing so.

Honestly, people... If you have a problem with someone, a group or whatever, shouldn't you use the utmost common sense and take it directly to the person/group you have a problem with instead of poking a stick into an already angry hornets nest?

It makes no sense at all to me why people continually do this... Do you get some form of sexual gratification out of it?

It's absolutely proposterous to continually do something that you know will step on peoples egoes to the point of starting a flame/forum war.

ZA, while I do understand how you feel... You have ultimately pitted the community against itself and also against GRiN.

While you may have had good intentions, sometimes that's all it is... Nothing good can be gained from such an action as a good intention. We all have good intentions, but not all the time are they accepted nor approved of.

Therein is where the fault lays... Good Intentions.

I understand the helplessness of the whole situation, the feeling of betrayal and the distrust... However, it could have been easily and more maturely been handled privately instead of how it's been handled publically.

I admit that I may have been wrong with the way I posted originally, but I felt it was the only way to get my point across.

While some of you will truly read what I've had to say here, you may agree to disagree with me.

If you have a problem with what I just said, feel free to "PM" me about it.

**EDIT**

This is a two-way street, and both sides need to realize this, including GRiN.

Edited by ToW-Angel
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