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Some thoughts about GRAW


Papa6
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I think alot of the multiplayers were hoping for a game made for matching, like [GR]. [GR] was just way ahead of it's time, add a 3rd party program like mass production and match away. With GRAW you'll never see two hundred plus matches a day across many ladders.

GRAW is not matchable at this point, and without some type of replays/playerdemo or working anti-cheat it never will be. Sure a few will match, but never with the numbers of [GR].

Edited by Pulaski
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I don't think it will ever be a match game then. When back in late 2005 that is, when the devs "GRIN" said that replays would make enormous sized files that it wouldn't be proper to do it. i knew something was wrong.

I applaud Grin for the deathcam, but deathcam with replay mixed is what made [GR] truly match material.

I got a response in a thread from I think wille in the mod forum(don't beat me for this) said to the effect that, modding wasn't able to be addressed for the final release. but it would appear that GRIN are taking a strong emphasis now in modding for GRAW now. that is a good thing, when Grin STOP listening then we know things are changing with GRAW. but we need to remain ever optimistic and see that the responses and actions of Grin are really a way of saying "we are listening".

i hear that(from another member here) Grin are looking into changing the moddability from what it is now. I truly hope that doing the midding through folders like in [GR] can be implemented as it was so much easier to mod rahter than unpack this, add that, repack this and then do your thing with it to mod. that's wild.

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papa I still feel that you are doing too much of a big deal out of the "hardness" of modding GRAW:) have you tried it yourself?its not that hard at all really,it may sound a bit bit harsh but its really not once you understand it:)

It's not really the modding that's difficult, it's the ability to enable and disable whatever mods you want to use that is. I can't have 2 skin mods for the same thing (ie US uniforms) installed, but not activated. I either have 1 skin mod activated, 1 sking mod not activated, or no skin mod at all. Not to mention being unable to use some basic mods with the anti-cheat enabled, and mods just don't seem worth it to some (such as myself). Some mods look great, but I won't download them because I can't really use them.

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I don't think it will ever be a match game then. When back in late 2005 that is, when the devs "GRIN" said that replays would make enormous sized files that it wouldn't be proper to do it. i knew something was wrong.

I can understand not having replays like [GR], but I can't think of any of the multiplayer games I have now that don't have the option to record player side demo. It's just standard with most FPS.

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papa I still feel that you are doing too much of a big deal out of the "hardness" of modding GRAW:) have you tried it yourself?its not that hard at all really,it may sound a bit bit harsh but its really not once you understand it:)

It's not really the modding that's difficult, it's the ability to enable and disable whatever mods you want to use that is. I can't have 2 skin mods for the same thing (ie US uniforms) installed, but not activated. I either have 1 skin mod activated, 1 sking mod not activated, or no skin mod at all. Not to mention being unable to use some basic mods with the anti-cheat enabled, and mods just don't seem worth it to some (such as myself). Some mods look great, but I won't download them because I can't really use them.

This is exactly the issue and the reason many modders simply gave up on GRAW. You can make the game engine as moddable as you like, but if there is no functional way to support USING mods, then there's really no point. No matter how much effort you put into creating modified content for the game, people are not going to bother messing with files and moving folders around just so that they can use a mod or play on a standard server.

The addition of the AC was a good idea, but the way it was implemented was certainly not very well thought out. Rather than having the game force you to use ONLY the information from unmodded .bundle files when connecting to an unmodded server, you simply get the boot, get accused of cheating and have to move the folders of whatever modifications you have installed. Now, of course you should not be able to use mods on unmodded servers, but making it so that we have no way to enable or disable without moving files and folders about is what crushed the concept of modding GRAW completely.

Making a game easy to modify from a coding, skinning and mapping point of view is not the same thing as making a game mod friendly or supporting mods. A mod friendly game is one where it is easy to USE modifications.

- How difficult the modifications are to make will define how many people are willing to make them.

- How difficult the modifications are to -use- on the other hand will define how many people are willing to use them, and let's face it... if no one is willing to use the mods you're creating, why bother creating any?

Making mods easy to use is FAR more important than making them easy to create. You guys went ass backwards on that and the results didn't turn out well. All the same, I'll certainly give you kudos for making an engine that's easy to modify from a coding standpoint, but for next time, take a long hard look at your policy on this subject. Modders are generally technically bright people. They can figure out how to make the mods even if it's difficult. The average gamer on the other hand will not even move files around to use a mod. If they can't install it and turn it on or off at will, they won't even bother and THEY are the important people in the equation, not the modders.

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I seem to remember for [GR] there was a modder's aftermarket mod installer tool out there for download. Heck, I might have gotten it from this site. Some sort of little program that just takes modded content and adds it to the mod list in-game.

Point is that while you're right, and while we SHOULDN'T have to do these sorts of things, at least maybe we CAN make a seriously simple (I think I can write a MS-DOS batch file to do it) little application to take mods on your computer and either install or uninstall them, and maybe even have a 'CLEAN' command of some sort to put GRAW back to the 100% vanilla version. Simple.

C'mon, I don't know JACK about modern software and operating systems. When I studied CS it was MS-DOS v5.0 BRAND SPANKING NEW on the market for about $500.00 a copy. Windows? Like v3.1 or something, but it wasn't even it's own operating system yet for a couple years. DBase was popular and expensive, as was Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet and WordPerfect 3. MS Office wasn't even a wet dream yet. Bill Gates was still a member of the human race. AND I CAN WRITE A BATCH FILE THAT CAN INSTALL MY MODS FOR ME.

Certainly one of you brilliant modders has thought to write a cute little desktop application to present a simple interface for the morons like me to click a button, designate the file path to the mod's current location, designate what type of mod (or map) it is, and then click GO. And PRESTO! TedSmith's mod installer v1.03 installs the mod for you, and even takes a moment to ask if you'd like to install another mod today.

Complete with link to make PayPal donations for shareware to TedSmithneedsmorelove.com.

GEEZ, do I have to think of EVERYTHING for you people?!?!?!

LOL

EDIT: for clarity, I'm thinking of the 'Kit Matrix' mod tool for [GR]. I used it a time or two myself. Neat stuff. See what a modder can accomplish to fill in the gaps left by the developers?

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the real bummer Rabbi is while you have a great idea, the modding of GRAW needs to be addressed.

[GR] is a great example of making modding durable and lasting yet simple. kiss simple if you will.(Keep It Simple Stupid). Just keep all moddable content in a /MOD folder.

Added: the bundle should be a good idea for actual game files themselves, but textures, map files, environment and the like need to have an unpacked easy access folder. so if i install Rabbi's map for example, it will be under /mods/rabbi.

keep it simple yet practical. i can't see myself always having to repack a bundle if i make one large or small change in my maps, mods etc. because if i want rabbi to be able to use my maps in a mod or his editor, i have to bundle up my map into the quick.bundle then send him a copy of it. not good.

Edited by Papa6
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I agree 100% with your post Ted but consider that GRAW was born with no mod support at all coz Grin had no time to make one.. so it's not that graw mod support is bad, it never existed at all and everything we modders are releasing is possible thanks to nemon (no mod scene without him :thumbsup: ) and Grin (they are doing their best and even more to help us with a matter they didn't expected to deal with)

For Grin's future projects I'm sure mod support is on the top of the TO DO list, but for graw we need to find a solution together.. if for grin is technically impossible to implement an [GR] like mod support, I think our only alternative is to create a few major mod project and ask Grin for a direct support into the game with a future Community's Mods Patch

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papa, papa papa

thats basicly how it is, you put your mods under graw/local/mymod

the only diffrence is that the "mod" folder is called "local"

the only hitch is that you have to move them out but as said before that can be done with the click of the mouse if you write a simple bat file.

you never ever ever have to mess inside som giant bundle.its aaall in your head!:)

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That's a problem though.....mod makers can't just make a install for their mod, they have to warn the user to clear out any other mods they may have in the local folder ahead of time, meaning messing with files. It's a lot easier for a person to just download .exes (or the actual files and place them in a "Mod1" and "Mod2" etc etc folders then activated. As it is now, mod management flat out sucks.

Edited by Nutlink
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This is exactly the issue and the reason many modders simply gave up on GRAW. You can make the game engine as moddable as you like, but if there is no functional way to support USING mods, then there's really no point. No matter how much effort you put into creating modified content for the game, people are not going to bother messing with files and moving folders around just so that they can use a mod or play on a standard server.

The addition of the AC was a good idea, but the way it was implemented was certainly not very well thought out. Rather than having the game force you to use ONLY the information from unmodded .bundle files when connecting to an unmodded server, you simply get the boot, get accused of cheating and have to move the folders of whatever modifications you have installed. Now, of course you should not be able to use mods on unmodded servers, but making it so that we have no way to enable or disable without moving files and folders about is what crushed the concept of modding GRAW completely.

Making a game easy to modify from a coding, skinning and mapping point of view is not the same thing as making a game mod friendly or supporting mods. A mod friendly game is one where it is easy to USE modifications.

- How difficult the modifications are to make will define how many people are willing to make them.

- How difficult the modifications are to -use- on the other hand will define how many people are willing to use them, and let's face it... if no one is willing to use the mods you're creating, why bother creating any?

Making mods easy to use is FAR more important than making them easy to create. You guys went ass backwards on that and the results didn't turn out well. All the same, I'll certainly give you kudos for making an engine that's easy to modify from a coding standpoint, but for next time, take a long hard look at your policy on this subject. Modders are generally technically bright people. They can figure out how to make the mods even if it's difficult. The average gamer on the other hand will not even move files around to use a mod. If they can't install it and turn it on or off at will, they won't even bother and THEY are the important people in the equation, not the modders.

Well said Ted.

And...

Grin Willie is silly.

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Hmm i thought mods went in custom.

levels go in custom_levels

mods go in local

and lightspeed you should have typed "willy is silly", has a nicer ring to it.

moving mods, using a bat file. that's what we call in the US as "bubblegum and chicken wire" a backwoods fix to mods. doesn't need to be so. but I'd be willing to wait for an expansion pack with changes that works similar to This

Edited by Papa6
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papa I still feel that you are doing too much of a big deal out of the "hardness" of modding GRAW:) have you tried it yourself?its not that hard at all really,it may sound a bit bit harsh but its really not once you understand it:)

It's not really the modding that's difficult, it's the ability to enable and disable whatever mods you want to use that is. I can't have 2 skin mods for the same thing (ie US uniforms) installed, but not activated. I either have 1 skin mod activated, 1 sking mod not activated, or no skin mod at all. Not to mention being unable to use some basic mods with the anti-cheat enabled, and mods just don't seem worth it to some (such as myself). Some mods look great, but I won't download them because I can't really use them.

This is exactly the issue and the reason many modders simply gave up on GRAW. You can make the game engine as moddable as you like, but if there is no functional way to support USING mods, then there's really no point. No matter how much effort you put into creating modified content for the game, people are not going to bother messing with files and moving folders around just so that they can use a mod or play on a standard server.

The addition of the AC was a good idea, but the way it was implemented was certainly not very well thought out. Rather than having the game force you to use ONLY the information from unmodded .bundle files when connecting to an unmodded server, you simply get the boot, get accused of cheating and have to move the folders of whatever modifications you have installed. Now, of course you should not be able to use mods on unmodded servers, but making it so that we have no way to enable or disable without moving files and folders about is what crushed the concept of modding GRAW completely.

Making a game easy to modify from a coding, skinning and mapping point of view is not the same thing as making a game mod friendly or supporting mods. A mod friendly game is one where it is easy to USE modifications.

- How difficult the modifications are to make will define how many people are willing to make them.

- How difficult the modifications are to -use- on the other hand will define how many people are willing to use them, and let's face it... if no one is willing to use the mods you're creating, why bother creating any?

Making mods easy to use is FAR more important than making them easy to create. You guys went ass backwards on that and the results didn't turn out well. All the same, I'll certainly give you kudos for making an engine that's easy to modify from a coding standpoint, but for next time, take a long hard look at your policy on this subject. Modders are generally technically bright people. They can figure out how to make the mods even if it's difficult. The average gamer on the other hand will not even move files around to use a mod. If they can't install it and turn it on or off at will, they won't even bother and THEY are the important people in the equation, not the modders.

This is the truth (I am not a modder) but I love the modders. I loved the installers & Mod manager [GR] modders used. I downloaded the mod I installed it in no time. I activated the mods, told my buds on teamspeak what mods & what order they were in & then got the cofee going cause I knew it was going to be a long & fun filled weekend. I guess I'd better take some classes so I can use mods in GRAW. Great point.....GREAT POST!

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Papa did make some mods, but he has moved on to another game now. He must really love us that he can't seem to pull himself away from these forums though :grin1:

:wub: Um..erm...I've been here for years. I think I've developed an old couch in here with my posts and have a beer right next to me. I'm comfortable here and it's warm and cozy. :rofl:

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the real bummer Rabbi is while you have a great idea, the modding of GRAW needs to be addressed.

[GR] is a great example of making modding durable and lasting yet simple. kiss simple if you will.(Keep It Simple Stupid). Just keep all moddable content in a /MOD folder.

Added: the bundle should be a good idea for actual game files themselves, but textures, map files, environment and the like need to have an unpacked easy access folder. so if i install Rabbi's map for example, it will be under /mods/rabbi.

keep it simple yet practical. i can't see myself always having to repack a bundle if i make one large or small change in my maps, mods etc. because if i want rabbi to be able to use my maps in a mod or his editor, i have to bundle up my map into the quick.bundle then send him a copy of it. not good.

YUP! KISS... (Not you, Papa6... I don't know you like that...)

And a great simple thing to do would be to write a little application which could do the job of moving those files and folders and stuff around for you, and make it all really simple, Windows-ish, and user-friendly for those (like me) with near-zero computer skills.

As talented as the modding community around here has proven to be over the years, I'm sure someone (more like a couple dozen someones) already knows how and could write it in a single evening.

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right, just to shut ya all up!:)

my dear collegue Anders Knogmacka wrote this little thing for me;)

I present, the GRAW MOD SWITCHER!

create a txt file and name it graw_modswitcher.vbs (its a visual basic script)

and inside that you paste

Dim filesys

set filesys=CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")

If filesys.FolderExists("d:\graw\local") Then

filesys.MoveFolder "d:\graw\local", "d:\grawmods"

Else

filesys.MoveFolder "d:\grawmods", "d:\graw\local"

End If

ofcourse you have to edit the paths to fit your computer :) the first one is where the mods are from the beginning, IE the Local directory in your graw directory

the second is ..the same, and the third is where you want to put your mods while playing online

the last two are just the reverse so the program knows how to switch em back

double click it before you play online to move out your mods and when you are done playing you click again and it moves back the files

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' date='Sep 5 2006, 04:00 PM' post='416402']

create a txt file and name it graw_modswitcher.vbs (its a visual basic script)

and inside that you paste

Cut and paste? That's too hard. Can't you just do it for me?

do you have VNC installed?

hang on, let me bend over first.

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Handy script, here's mine

Dim filesys

set filesys=CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")

If filesys.FolderExists("n:\Games\Program Files\Ubisoft\Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter\local\english") Then

filesys.MoveFolder "n:\Games\Program Files\Ubisoft\Ghost Recon Advanced

Warfighter\local\english", "n:\Games\Program Files\Ubisoft\GRAW mods"

Else

filesys.MoveFolder "n:\Games\Program Files\Ubisoft\GRAW mods", "n:\Games\Program

Files\Ubisoft\Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter\local\english"

End If

... I just have to figure out why I get a path not found error on it....

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