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Some thoughts about GRAW


Papa6
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I know I have come down hard on GRAW lately but i really couldn't explain why until it hit me today.

GRAW is supposed to be a sequel in the Ghost Recon franchise. So what should be in ANY sequel? to answer this two crowds need to be addressed.

1)Old school([GR] fans)

2)New School(new fans)

[GR] fans are those who wanted tactical shooting and a more slow approach

I'll say the "New School" is those who want a faster paced game.

don't know if those explain the groups properly, but there are two different groups I'm sure.

in order for GRAW to be truly realised, the game must cater to two different game styles like run n' gun and slow more methodical.

So GRAW must have the flavor of the [GR] and have new exciting flavors of the new. sequels always (but not successfully) have the flavor of the old version to retain the fan base who have grown to like the prior game but the new flavor must bring new suspenseful gamestyles to cater to probably younger crowds.(or crowds who like the faster game style)

an example;

[GR]: Siege, Last man standing, Defend& mission. (just to throw some out there)

New(Domination, Deathmatch, Team deathmatch) (a more faced paced game style)

Also, mods need to be exactly or similar to the previous version so as not to confuse or intimidate players. [GR] mod activation should be or should've been carried over to GRAW. this way oldies like myself and newbies can all easily activate mods and not get stuck with a situation whereby we all have different mods and can't play together because of the "file match" issue. GRAW doesn't allow for mod activation (on/off).

I came to this conclusion at work and it seems logical.

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I think what i missed in my post above was the "FEEL" of [GR] as well.

There should be someway for GRIN to allow for adjusting the team size. in a box like the respawn setting. Say set team numbers from 1 to 9. that would be a great start.

I just hope Grin reads this and sees that while they are on to something, more needs to be done. don't just give us maps, we need polish and shine. what i mean by that is, now do more to add [GR] to the game. like a kick and ban feature for kicking jack-asses off the server. and ban them as well.

i'm kinda curious how GRAW got to be a game with so few weapons. allow modders to easily incorporate weapons mods into GRAW. Maps are a no brainer but have a feature that points folks who don't have a map to the right URL so they can download it.

what about voice sounds like "kill confirmed?" or "Man down?" don't have alot of time to read the chat box for who's dying all the time.

I'll post more if i can think of anything else.

cheers!

Papa6

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Yep. That's why my signature line has read the way it does for the past few months... I don't think a single game CAN be both. There may be aspects of GRAW that I come to like eventually (another patch or two perhaps?) but it will be because I consider it "Advanced Warfighter" WITHOUT the Ghost Recon name.

In retrospect, I think my harsh negativity comes from the fact that the GR name was used, but it's not a true sequel. It's not evolutionary, it's revolutionary. Nothing wrong with that, unless you're old-school [GR]. If UBI/GRiN had shipped it named "AW", I probably would have waited until the price dropped (and apparently the first two or three patches are shipped), bought it and probably liked it for what it is.

And I'd still have [GR] installed, for what IT is. I STILL think there is a business case to be written to have a true [Ghost Recon] sequel. Use the new GRAW engine, but strip out the new-fangled crap like in-game vid, etc. Update the original maps from [GR]+IT+DS to use the new engines (heck, our mod community is ALREADY doing it...) and there ya go... [GR] + updated graphics + updated physics. From a business perspective I'll bet you a profit could be made since the dev costs would be far lower than what GRAW took to develop.

In the end, I've softened on GRAW. I still don't like it much, but I'm not "flame on" anymore. I know people around here DO like it, and I'm okay with that... to each, his or her own. It's funny, but I also post / lurk on www.CorvetteForum.com and this is exactly the same thing I see whenever a new generation of Corvette is released... the "old timers" don't like it, but the new car brings a whole new generation of buyer into the fold. After awhile, everyone integrates again.

I hope GRAW is eventually successful, because if it fails I doubt we'd see another one (Ubi IS a business and a profit needs to be made to continue). Meanwhile, I'll still play [GR], BF2 and who knows what else.... all the while hoping my [GR] Sequel idea reaches a boiling point in someone's head at Ubi....

:)

-JK

Callsign 3Point

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I like your post. VERY well written.

I don't expect GRAW to be exact [GR]. But it should encase the features that made [GR] great.

GRAW could be named with the "GR" moniker if Grin could get "[GR]'ness" into GRAW.

But i would even go farther to say that, If Grin were to develop an expansion pack for GRAW, they could maybe redo GRAW (God no- not from scratch..are you nuts!?!) so they can get these things into GRAW? I think I or we could be throwing too much crap at them at one time though.

But I'm optimistic now and think Grin with real nerves of steel can pull all this stuff off.

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Yep. That's why my signature line has read the way it does for the past few months... I don't think a single game CAN be both. There may be aspects of GRAW that I come to like eventually (another patch or two perhaps?) but it will be because I consider it "Advanced Warfighter" WITHOUT the Ghost Recon name.

In retrospect, I think my harsh negativity comes from the fact that the GR name was used, but it's not a true sequel. It's not evolutionary, it's revolutionary. Nothing wrong with that, unless you're old-school [GR]. If UBI/GRiN had shipped it named "AW", I probably would have waited until the price dropped (and apparently the first two or three patches are shipped), bought it and probably liked it for what it is.

And I'd still have [GR] installed, for what IT is. I STILL think there is a business case to be written to have a true [Ghost Recon] sequel. Use the new GRAW engine, but strip out the new-fangled crap like in-game vid, etc. Update the original maps from [GR]+IT+DS to use the new engines (heck, our mod community is ALREADY doing it...) and there ya go... [GR] + updated graphics + updated physics. From a business perspective I'll bet you a profit could be made since the dev costs would be far lower than what GRAW took to develop.

In the end, I've softened on GRAW. I still don't like it much, but I'm not "flame on" anymore. I know people around here DO like it, and I'm okay with that... to each, his or her own. It's funny, but I also post / lurk on www.CorvetteForum.com and this is exactly the same thing I see whenever a new generation of Corvette is released... the "old timers" don't like it, but the new car brings a whole new generation of buyer into the fold. After awhile, everyone integrates again.

I hope GRAW is eventually successful, because if it fails I doubt we'd see another one (Ubi IS a business and a profit needs to be made to continue). Meanwhile, I'll still play [GR], BF2 and who knows what else.... all the while hoping my [GR] Sequel idea reaches a boiling point in someone's head at Ubi....

:)

-JK

Callsign 3Point

Some of the areas you have pointed out are already addressed in the Beta we are testing right now. It is a big step in the right direction, the game isnt quite where it needs to be, but its getting there. Hopefully once we are done testing it will get released soon. Alot of people (especially server admins) will be pleased.

Edited by }PW{ Payback
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Here's the deal...I love GR......I Love SWAT ...this is so close to both.... Tactical? SO many ppl have an explaination of (TACTICAL) (being the POINT MAN or CAPTAIN) is a TACTICAL game to me....but I don't want the kill Mitchell OVER in coop....but I LOVE IT in SP.....That is TACTICAL in SP & if you have the Patience in SP but not in..... MP PPL hate to wait.....I know this has been said but hey....maybe a different way of saying it is needed.still waiting GRIN :thumbsup:

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I have one word for grin EXTRAPOLATION. If they knew what that meant the game play and everything else we wanted would be there.

Yes ofcourse It is a sequel, a sequel of the failed sequel [GR2] . I aggree if the Ghost Recon name was dropped off of this it might have gotten more fans.

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I have one word for grin EXTRAPOLATION. If they knew what that meant the game play and everything else we wanted would be there.

Yes ofcourse It is a sequel, a sequel of the failed sequel [GR2] . I aggree if the Ghost Recon name was dropped off of this it might have gotten more fans.

Geez Extrapolation? lol please use simple english...lmao! :rofl:

Added: look here Grin

Edited by Papa6
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Personally, I see GRAW as an "adaptation" of a 360 game, since it's not a direct port. Plot, style, setting, etc are still there. I think they did a good job with what they were given and put the best spin on it they could without making something completely unique, but it's still not so much of a sequel or even its own thing. The 360 version is a sequel to an xbox game that wasn't a very good sequel in the first place, like someone pointed out already. On their own(I've played them all) they're all good games, but none feel like evolutionary sequels to the [GR].

Summit Strike actually feels the closest to [GR] to me in terms of "sequels," but GRAW pc has some great aspects to it and it's gameplay feels better then any of the xbox/360 games. However, taking into account that we were never given a pc GR2 sequel coupled with GRAW pc being designed by a new party, and being based on the 360 concept, I found it hard to expect OGR2.

It is what is, at least they are continuing to add to it. I think they did a good job with what they had and set out to do.

Having said that, I'm not a big fan of the whole Advanced Warfighter concept. The game design for both the 360, this one, and the upcoming Rainbow6 game are big turnoffs for me. They have some interesting concepts and of course graphics are great, but I hate the whole "crisis day in the life of a soldier/hollywood movie" feel for these particular games. They really lose the overall tactical experience and become more of rail shooters like Quake or Doom, but with tactical gameplay and elements. I like some depth to my tac-sims, and maybe even a few minor roleplaying elements. [GR] had a good mix of that in the SP campaigns, medals, combat points, specialists, the mission breifs, the missions, it's all there. Just a shame that design theory was never expanded upon and seems to be disappearing all together.

Ah well....like I said, at least they are continuing to support the game so far and taken by itself it is good.

Edited by Brettzies
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Alot of people (especially server admins) will be pleased.

Did I miss something?

you must have ;)

I'm glad to hear things are looking better in the future... but...

...boy, I'm getting rather tired hearing about how good the beta is. Talk about an Elitist attitude around here. Next thing you know people will have special avatars proclaiming their "beta tester" status.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread topic...

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...boy, I'm getting rather tired hearing about how good the beta is. Talk about an Elitist attitude around here. Next thing you know people will have special avatars proclaiming their "beta tester" status.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread topic...

If you are that bothered then maybe you should have put yourself out a bit like we did to apply as a beta tester.

Theres nothing elitist going on, just people who want to improve the game trying to give their opinion as gamers.

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But it should encase the features that made [GR] great.

It should have but it didn't and that's a major shame. :( A great game like GR should have been built up over the years by RSE instead of farming it out and starting over. Oh Well ! It could have been a lot worse as GRAW could have been a total clone of the COD/MOH type games.
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I think most people are not giving the game a chance yes its GR but why does it have to be so close to the orig to be anygood (i dont think its to far off) everyone would have said then "its just the same with fancy graphics blah blah blah, get involved with the game and appreciate it is for what it is not what you think it should of been, again there arent any other games at the moment that touch it, you couldnt realisticly name one that hasnt got flaws. The only prob i see with this game is that to run it you have to upgrade your comps and most peeps wont or dont want to, thats it, because if it would run on medium comps it would apeal to the masses ect ect ect. We have dif modes now which allow us to control the speed of the game TDM nice and slow tactical as you like or DM nice and fast all run and gun plus many more what more do you want, as for co-op no matter what the ai were like you get used to it and it always gets easy thats why most turn to multiplayer because its the buzz of playing agaisnt other like minded peeps, and its almost never the same.

So drop on This sat if theres and get together and see how u fair agaisnt the elite ish lol.

:g_withgrin::)

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I'm not here to bash GRAW anymore. I'm here to hope that GRAW does evolve into a Game that can be labelled "GR". I've bought a few games lately, my backs against the wall, no armed assault in sight, I'm taking a wait and see attitude.

I'm enthusiastic to see this topics is stimulating some good conversation. :thumbsup:

Edited by Papa6
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...boy, I'm getting rather tired hearing about how good the beta is. Talk about an Elitist attitude around here. Next thing you know people will have special avatars proclaiming their "beta tester" status.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread topic...

If you are that bothered then maybe you should have put yourself out a bit like we did to apply as a beta tester.

Theres nothing elitist going on, just people who want to improve the game trying to give their opinion as gamers.

No issue here about people wanting to help the game.

What I don't like is the constant references in msg threads about "oh, that will be taken care of", or "wait till you see..." and then NO hard facts or data.

That is an elitist attitude... "I know something you don't know"... I KNOW there are people beta testing. I don't need to be constantly reminded in every thread. If a tester can't share the info (which I completely understand), then why is he/she making comments other than to look or feel just a wee bit more important than the rest of us?

And by the way, how do you know I DIDN'T apply as a beta tester? Just to be clear, I didn't... but you made that assumption.

Sorry to derail the thread... I just had to vent a moment...

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...boy, I'm getting rather tired hearing about how good the beta is. Talk about an Elitist attitude around here. Next thing you know people will have special avatars proclaiming their "beta tester" status.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread topic...

If you are that bothered then maybe you should have put yourself out a bit like we did to apply as a beta tester.

Theres nothing elitist going on, just people who want to improve the game trying to give their opinion as gamers.

No issue here about people wanting to help the game.

What I don't like is the constant references in msg threads about "oh, that will be taken care of", or "wait till you see..." and then NO hard facts or data.

That is an elitist attitude... "I know something you don't know"... I KNOW there are people beta testing. I don't need to be constantly reminded in every thread. If a tester can't share the info (which I completely understand), then why is he/she making comments other than to look or feel just a wee bit more important than the rest of us?

And by the way, how do you know I DIDN'T apply as a beta tester? Just to be clear, I didn't... but you made that assumption.

Sorry to derail the thread... I just had to vent a moment...

I post to try and give hope to people that dont know. Sometimes just little comments from people who are beta testing can give a little hope to those who arent. It has nothing to do...well atleast for me...with wanting wave in someones face.

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...boy, I'm getting rather tired hearing about how good the beta is. Talk about an Elitist attitude around here. Next thing you know people will have special avatars proclaiming their "beta tester" status.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread topic...

If you are that bothered then maybe you should have put yourself out a bit like we did to apply as a beta tester.

Theres nothing elitist going on, just people who want to improve the game trying to give their opinion as gamers.

No issue here about people wanting to help the game.

What I don't like is the constant references in msg threads about "oh, that will be taken care of", or "wait till you see..." and then NO hard facts or data.

That is an elitist attitude... "I know something you don't know"... I KNOW there are people beta testing. I don't need to be constantly reminded in every thread. If a tester can't share the info (which I completely understand), then why is he/she making comments other than to look or feel just a wee bit more important than the rest of us?

And by the way, how do you know I DIDN'T apply as a beta tester? Just to be clear, I didn't... but you made that assumption.

Sorry to derail the thread... I just had to vent a moment...

Nothing elitist about it... The truth is it will be the game that everyone is hoping for and have been hoping for since the release.

Just like GRiN and UBI, the beta testers cannot release any information. If you had wanted to be in on the beta testing, you could have signed up just like everyone else did and would have gotten the chance to be taking part in it.

You honestly cannot tell me that is 'elitist' in the least... It is very far from it... GRiN has listened and is still listening to the community about what they want and need in the game. You all will be pleased with the release of the next patch... Don't ask me when it will be released, because I do not know... If I were an elitist as you suggest, then I would know the date... So don't ask me, because I do not know.

To accuse us of allegedly being an elitist just signifies that you are in fact jealous that you are not part of the beta testing. You had your chance to sign up and take part in it... Either you failed to sign up or you didn't want to... That is no ones fault but your own. But, if you did sign up and were not selected, then I am sorry that you are not part of it.

But, please stop with the insinuations... It's only a detriment to the community when all of us are working very hard at letting GRiN know what is wrong with the patch so it can be fixed before it is released.

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I post to try and give hope to people that dont know. Sometimes just little comments from people who are beta testing can give a little hope to those who arent. It has nothing to do...well atleast for me...with wanting wave in someones face.

Bingo! Would you rather not know what's being worked on or would you rather have subtle hints at what is coming up? I'm more of the latter than the former. Any time a new piece of information is released or implied upon about something I'm interested in I'm all over it.

yup, but actually, the "advertising" will delay the news until 12! spam1.gif

That reminds me, it could be worse. We could have the ingame advertising that SWAT 4 does! It's sad when they want to know who looked at what advertisement for how long, at what distance, and at what angle.

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