[crosshair weapon behaviour]

[th33f.]

the question in the title is regarding to the joke of a crosshair reticle that we got in GRAW.

first things first, does anyone NOT want it changed? nobody? ok then!

let me start off by saying, it was supposed to be a sequel after all. RSE took about 2 full years to fully balance out the weapons in GR. as a result we had flawless balance. and of course, it was only possible thanks to the crosshair controlled weapon behavior, be it a pistol, rifle or an AT launcher. you can scream REALISM all you want, but adversarial MP gaming is rarely any reflection of real life.

some weapons are designed for long range, some for close round placement, some for leveling city blocks. co-existance of all those in the same game was made possible by two ballancing factors: zoom range and crosshair blooming. by adjusting both of those accordingly, every weapon could be fine-tuned just right. no advantage was given to any one weapon over everything else. anyway, enough about the dead horse. let's see what's been done in GRAW and what else could be done.

as far as zoom, there's nothing to say. it was primitive. we got scopes now and they work great. let's move along...

so how did GRIN plan to achieve MP weapon balance initially? the answer is tactical points. whoever thougt that would fly with this crowd needs to be shot. i haven't seen a server with those enabled in over 2 weeks. the concept is old and unpopular. ok, screw that.

the only worthy attempt at balance is the introduction of weight and its effects on the character. the idea is great, it's the implementation that needs work. other than difference in running speed, a fully loaded player is hardly at a disadvantage to lighter players. but again, it's great in theory.

that leaves us only with the weapons' characteristics to go on. let's see... there are a total of... 10. thought i'd run out of fingers to count on... maybe after the next patch.

M8

SCAR-L

SCAR-H

MR-C

MP5SD

M9

Glock

Sniper

MG

GL(we'll consider this a separate weapon)

so, can anyone tell me why would anyone use the M8 over SCAR-L, other than the impossible to notice run speed difference? SCAR-L gets a superior scope, has better accuracy, velocity, you name it. there's simply no situtation when an M8 would work better than a SCAR-L. not in this game at least.

next, SCAR-L vs SCAR-H. well, the heavier variant's handicap is obvious - a shorter mag. in addition to that it has greater recoil, so the extra damage it incurs is well compensated for. paired with a supressor, it has some significant benefits to offer, though my personal choice is still an unsilenced L. all in all, these two AR's are in the same class, both having specific pros and cons. it's basically the same gun anyway.

ok, let's try to fit the MR-C into the equation. what does it have to offer? compared to the M8... NOTHING, except a 50 round magazine. with the caliber it uses, i believe this is the least used weapon in the game. pity. no matter how light it might be, it's a death trap.

allright, what do we have on the board so far...

MR-C < M8 < SCAR H/L

the same exact pattern develops in secondary weapons...

M9 < Glock < MP5

the next 2 weapons have their very specific purposes, and aren't exactly assault weapons. balancing those can only be done against similar type equipment and let's leave it at that.

what about the M203 now... accuracy - perfect! damage - unmatched! the only drawback is having to reload after each shot. i could live with that, since the reload time is minimal. well, that puts the GL on top of my list... i never leave spawn without it!

without the tactical points, the top picks is all people will use, at least when they're serious about doing well. in fact, the most complained about issue is that everyone uses the _very_ top entry on that list - the GL.

and now, without any further ado, i'd like to call onto every GR.netter to express their view on this matter...

would you prefer the traditional crosshair weapon behavior to what we have in GRAW?

what's ironic is that we already have a traditional crosshair ret in GRAW, only it doesn't work like it used to in GR. in fact i don't think it does anything at all, except indicate whether you're moving or standing still. all that's left, is to tie the ret animations to what's actually going on with the weapon, and adjust the timing for each case individually. the principle is: the more powerful the weapon - the longer the delay.

next is a sketch of how i see true balance brought into GRAW's weaponry... just some basic ideas. but first, i'll try to refresh your memory on how the system used to work in [GR].

full run = full open ret. in an unzoomed perspective it stretched about 2/3's to the edge of the screen, though at higher resolutions it was mor like half-way to the edge. with the crosshair in that position your weapon was completely useless. bullets would land anywhere in the area defined by the bloom amount, never more. the probability of your hitting a close target on full run was less than 2%. and it did happen time to time.

as soon as you release your forward key - the crosshair begins to contract. depending on the weapon, we had different rates of the crosshairs closing and different final positions(most weapons still had quite a gap between the 4 bars in fully closed position). the tightness of the ret in the final position reflected how accurate the weapon was.

another thing: if this gets put in, than the screen shaking from recoil will need to be dropped, since the blooming rets already represent recoil. we'll still have that in scoped mode though.

back to M8 vs SCAR-L. making M8 an equal choice couldn't be simpler. since it's lighter - it should be easier to aim, in turn the reticle should close faster. about 20% faster. i think it should be to SCAR what SA80 was to OICW(no GL) in GR. less range, velocity and accuracy, but faster. SCAR-H should probably behave the same as SCAR-L, except each round should open the rets a little more than an L round. like 20% more. and MR-C, i don't know... probably faster than the M8? not to fast though, 'cause we still need some space for the MP5, which should be on par with the pistols handling. very fast. and finally the two heavyweights should handle substantially slower than everything else. sorry again, but [GR] had it perfect as far as sniper rifles and MG's to regular stuff.

and our special guest, mr GL would like to say a couple of words tonight... yea this one deserves special attention, and i think i have something good for you... the same crosshair behavior would apply, with nades flying all out of wack when the ret isn't closed, but... excuse me again, but i have to mention that GR did this as well... GL ret should be the loosest ret in closed position, and more importantly, it's gotta stay well open when strafing sideways.

my aplogies for the long read, but i feel this issue will influence a lot of people's decision whether to invest more time into this game or not. besides, i don't think there's any other way to stop the run-n-gun insanity most of you are so fond of.

make me happy, GRIN

[huddex]

I prefer the M8 unscoped with a silencer and a gl. Scar is ok but to slow in my opinion.

[th33f.]

I prefer the M8 unscoped with a silencer and a gl. Scar is ok but to slow in my opinion.

how do you feel the difference exactly? even if it's there it's probably less than a quarter second? if they visualized it with the crosshairs, instead of making us guess it wouldn't be half bad...

[huddex]

I prefer the M8 unscoped with a silencer and a gl. Scar is ok but to slow in my opinion.

how do you feel the difference exactly? even if it's there it's probably less than a quarter second? if they visualized it with the crosshairs, instead of making us guess it wouldn't be half bad...

Can't explain it better than "it just feels faster" sorry.

[Bota:16]

I think if they were to just add recoil when your not scoped/zoomed in it would take care of alot of what you are saying. It's just too easy to go full auto unscoped and kill somebody from long distance. Cause when your not scoped you have absolutely no recoil and very little ret bloom. Still think RVS had the best balance of recoil and ret bloom. Hang me if you will. Ok so maybe the recoil was a little much, but it definately made you use controlled burst to shoot at enemy especially when there was some distance between you.

Edited August 21, 2006 by [99]-Athenian

[Peace]

I agree what you say in your essay Th33f, Unfortunately it is far too late to do anything about this in GRAW. I just hope there are some devs taking note on what could be an upcoming tactical realistic FPS.

I would like too see the return of either the old [GR] reticule concept, as depicted by Th33f ,

but probably rather a concept with no reticule at all, i.e., weapon characteristics balanced by its weight, design, accuracy, caliber, rate of fire, mag #, rounds in a mag, reliability (malfunctions), penetration, stealth etc etc

Example:

where a heavier more robust gun = quicker tired when running/slower run, longer time to bring up and aim, more background sway when standing or crouched (which makes accuracy lower), larger caliber = greater recoil etc etc

I think that would be possible. Still, the [GR] ret is definitely a visually attractive solution for gaming as it gives direct feedback to the player of weapon characteristics and when to pull the trigger and the expected result (hit or miss).

[Ghost9]

at first i didn't like the crosshair at all, but now i could really care less. since the majority of true aiming is with ironsites the crosshair makes little to no difference.

[zulater]

I'll just copy my post from the other thread...

I've always been upset when you use your iron sight/scope/red dot and still have retbloom. I'm sorry but your shot just doesn't deviate that much when using the sights.

I like that they have setup where when you zoom the round goes in the same place every time (variation of moa would be nice) but I strongly feel that the sight should drift quite a bit depending on your stance.

Standing up the sight should sway quite a bit and make it difficult to keep your aim on target at a distance. crouched should be slightly less and laying down should be minimal.

This is similar to a retbloom but if you are lined up with your iron sight/red dot/scope the round should go wherever you have the dot/crosshair pointed when you fire.

[EricJ]

ok, let's try to fit the MR-C into the equation. what does it have to offer? compared to the M8... NOTHING, except a 50 round magazine. with the caliber it uses, i believe this is the least used weapon in the game. pity. no matter how light it might be, it's a death trap.

allright, what do we have on the board so far...

MR-C < M8 < SCAR H/L

the same exact pattern develops in secondary weapons...

M9 < Glock < MP5

I guess I can argue only this point in yes, I do agree that it's less powered than all of the weapons (in the primary weapons category) but the only option is to just make the caliber bigger (as I'm doing, okay, slight shameless plug) and also reduce the ammo capacity. My belief is that GRIN took a stab at ballistics, as again noted, it's not even a firing weapon, so to blame GRIN for shatty ballistics is kinda baseless IMHO as I'm sure they can't tell you (But HKPro can) on the terminal ballistics of a 4.73 x 33mm Caseless round. But then again, it to me never was a deathtrap, as I finished missions before standing back and realizing the round vs. kill ratio wasn't too good, and the only time I got concerned about ammunition was "ready for bear" after taking out the Havocs. People knock the weapon sure for it's ammo damage incapabilities, but then again, I was so used to it with a GL that using it with a reflex sight just by itself, it jumps around alot. Other than that, I enjoy using it. It's a great handling weapon.

GL? Why can't anybody just enforce matches on servers? Is it so hard to do that? Apparently so. not towards you, but I see all the posts about it, but if you can't control your own server, then what's the point?

And I'll go with Peace on his point. Matter of fact I hate the reticule, don't use the reticule. First time playing I went to optic view instead of reticule shooting (and we're talking less than 10m engagement here) and thing it's too much of a game-ism.. but of course, it's a game.

[th33f.]

at first i didn't like the crosshair at all, but now i could really care less. since the majority of true aiming is with ironsites the crosshair makes little to no difference.

depends on your playing style, i guess. now that i've got my ret in red, i use off-the-hip shooting quite often. it's unbeatable on Shanty Town, and also DM games. i just don't like how easy it can get to score a headshot while moving/strafing and not using the scope. i'd like to stress that nerfing the GL alone in any way shouldn't be done without taking care of the rest of the weapons first. otherwise the GL will just die a quiet death...

[Yog-Sothoth]

Well about weapons.. personally I prefer SCAR-L with front grip.

Devs should in my opinion make two changes:

- limit gl ammo to two nades or even one (this should stop this crazy spam nading);

- change speed when running/walking - it should depend of how many pounds you are wearing with (this will reward players who don't want to run with gl under his gun or with submachine gun).

[JASGripen]

Well about weapons.. personally I prefer SCAR-L with front grip.

Devs should in my opinion make two changes:

- limit gl ammo to two nades or even one (this should stop this crazy spam nading);

- change speed when running/walking - it should depend of how many pounds you are wearing with (this will reward players who don't want to run with gl under his gun or with submachine gun).

Hear, hear.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

at first i didn't like the crosshair at all, but now i could really care less. since the majority of true aiming is with ironsites the crosshair makes little to no difference.

depends on your playing style, i guess. now that i've got my ret in red, i use off-the-hip shooting quite often. it's unbeatable on Shanty Town, and also DM games. i just don't like how easy it can get to score a headshot while moving/strafing and not using the scope. i'd like to stress that nerfing the GL alone in any way shouldn't be done without taking care of the rest of the weapons first. otherwise the GL will just die a quiet death...

Hence my arguement about changing reticule colors makes it to easy.

Truthfully removing the ret is fine by me unless you make the bloom do something.

The only other good thing it is for is orientation when running. The ret is always the way you will run if you push forward.

[Fonzarelli TAW]

I use a silenced M8 with scope (no GL). It just seems better in everyway than the SCAR-L, although the XML's probably say different. I've grown up with it, is all.

And yes, the crosshair sucks.

[Nutlink]

There's two things I would love to see, one is getting rid of the visible crosshairs altogether, and the other would be a not so steady hand. Like when you run, stop, and bring your gun up, I think it would be nice if the scope wavered a little bit, especially when standing vs crouching or going prone.

[EricJ]

Oddly enough something close happens. I've noticed this more with iron sights and some optics after running, or turning quickly. Maybe recovery should be slightly faster, but it's there.

[zulater]

There's two things I would love to see, one is getting rid of the visible crosshairs altogether, and the other would be a not so steady hand. Like when you run, stop, and bring your gun up, I think it would be nice if the scope wavered a little bit, especially when standing vs crouching or going prone.

that's what i've said. if you are standing with your scope up you should not be rock steady. It should waver a bit so that you have to continue to fight with your mouse to keep aimed on a spot. crouched it should be easier, and prone it should almost stay where you want it.

[th33f.]

swaying sights are overrated. they bring nothing, but fustratiion, especially when the effect is minimized in prone. imagine a guy 500 feet away laying in the open, impossible to get a drop on...

about the no crosshair idea... i guess it would be a cool server option, as well as an option to turn off friendly diamonds/tags. would make for a nice realistic game. i don't think too many people are ready for it though.

most of the stuff you guys replied with is in the game. recoil is present in crosshair mode, just try blasting the machine gun for a few seconds standing up. it isn't easy to control at all. your weight does affect your movement speed, how quick you're able to bring up the weapon after sprinting, and supposedly stability. to what degree remains a mystery though.

[zulater]

swaying sights are overrated. they bring nothing, but fustratiion, especially when the effect is minimized in prone. imagine a guy 500 feet away laying in the open, impossible to get a drop on...

about the no crosshair idea... i guess it would be a cool server option, as well as an option to turn off friendly diamonds/tags. would make for a nice realistic game. i don't think too many people are ready for it though.

most of the stuff you guys replied with is in the game. recoil is present in crosshair mode, just try blasting the machine gun for a few seconds standing up. it isn't easy to control at all. your weight does affect your movement speed, how quick you're able to bring up the weapon after sprinting, and supposedly stability. to what degree remains a mystery though.

It's unrealistic to have your aim rock steady no matter what position you are in. the point is you shouldn't be able to get the drop on someone by running around then stopping just to fire then run some more. crouch and peak a corner and get the guy.

I'm not saying allow total free movement while laying down. somewhere between [GR] and rvs movability while prone.

[NOX]

TAR-21

[RAbbi_74]

It's unrealistic to have your aim rock steady no matter what position you are in. the point is you shouldn't be able to get the drop on someone by running around then stopping just to fire then run some more. crouch and peak a corner and get the guy.

I'm not saying allow total free movement while laying down. somewhere between [GR] and rvs movability while prone.

So, what we're saying here is we want America's Army then? The whole breathing effect on crosshairs, which is QUITE realistic by the way...

As th33f mentioned, I don't think the players are quite ready for THAT either. MOST of the realism we ask for is already there. It's the compromise between ultimate realisn and fun gameplay. Can't have both, and most games are made or broken to each of us by how well they compromise between the two. I personally think that GRAW has done a pretty darned good job...

[th33f.]

the point is you shouldn't be able to get the drop on someone by running around then stopping just to fire then run some more.

by run you mean the full speed run, aka sprint, i assume. in that case you're right and the devs agree! running into someone who's not running - leaves you with a lot less chances to live than the other guy. you basically need a full second to bring the gun up, while all he has to do is pull the trigger. right?

nobody plays like that though, at least if it isn't their first day. the trick, as i have learned, is in listening. if you don't want to be heard, you need to be perfectly still, including leaving the mouse alone, but you already knew that. i also use sound as bait a lot. make him believe i took off, then suddenly stop, and wait. i know everyone that played online a few times got fooled like that at least once...

sniper rifle sway while scoped - yes, i agree! with the magnification we get on that scope, i don't think it would possible to stand up straight and keep the aim still even if you took the pills. for the assault rifles, combined with the recoil you experience on full auto, that feature would get annoying real quick. as a compromise, i wouldn't mind added head bopping while walking. however, when i stop i want that sight perfectly still.

[Fletch]

I liked what they did for Americas Army by putting in the waver of the weapon from breathing and how it increased or decreased depending on how fast or slow you were. They also had the bloom effect but it wasn't as slow as GR. I have always hated the sight bloom but accepted it as it was better then the CS style of play.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

i also use sound as bait a lot. make him believe i took off, then suddenly stop, and wait. i know everyone that played online a few times got fooled like that at least once...

I do that all the time... or i'll run for a little then stop and listen Then run then stop. Most people swing toward the sound , change weapons, reload or will take a step. It's a dead giveaway that your around the next corner.. and then boom you eat my hand frag.

[Nutlink]

nobody plays like that though, at least if it isn't their first day. the trick, as i have learned, is in listening. if you don't want to be heard, you need to be perfectly still, including leaving the mouse alone, but you already knew that.

That's the other thing....you don't (at least I don't) hear anything when I'm standing still and looking around with the mouse, yet other people can hear my feet shuffling. Why can't I hear the noise I'm making?