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False accusations of cheating


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I'll post my response here to what i also posted at our website.... to BDA and the skywolf post.

Any idea what #130335 is?

Here is why i ask... I had 5 min temp ban on punkbuster that i couldn't get rid of once. I had joined a RVS server and it asked me to download there map to play. I said ok i'll do it. Well it changed some config file that has a .u after it, and immediately punk started disconnecting me from any server for a "5 min ban"

Took me 2 hours and many o searches to find the offending file. Needless to say i don't play RVS much and after that haven't returned.

It's not that I don't believe you (as i do) but to make sure there is no mistakes I leave the decision and gathering proof up to our squad. If we have any issues with him i will add him to the ban (as he is listed on ours for possible ban from this conversation) and we are ready if we do have a problem with him.

This explains how we handle it. We put him on our possible list, and once we have our own proof we will ban. If none shows he still plays. This is the way Server admins should handle it locally. discuss possible cheaters but ban only with conclusive proof. Anything else, even punkbuster is just hearsay in my eyes do to the issues i personally had above. Granted i never was put on the master list because of that map i downloaded, but still.

This even goes for GRin's in house anticheat. If it detects someone, they may have just added a map incorrectly. I won't look there ip up and ban them for the altered file disconnect. The anticheat will do it's job until they fix there issue.

Edited by ROCOAFZ
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PW had created a mod for Joint operations. It was server/client so it didnt work on any other server unless they had the same mod or atleast one that was very close and punkbuster had to be off in order for it to work.

Well there was one other server that we could play on that had our mod as well as ours. So it was kinda cool to be able to mix it up alittle. We didnt have to stay just on our server. Well a few of our members got put on the MBL cause one day the other server had taken the mod off for some reason and punkbuster caught it. So anyways. Even though punkbuster did do its job...it didnt care about why...it just did.

Edited by }PW{ Postal
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Thats because your mod - because of NovaLogic's intentional design - overwrote stock files and content instead of putting it in its own directory structure.

Many people got banned and landed on the MBL because of "good intentioned" mods (not cheat ones like neon skins). Most of those were removed off the MBL later but it's not a case of a problem with PB but a problem with JO and it's mod support. Cheats used the same exact method to alter the game. PB has no way of knowing the difference between a german uniform and a neon glow skin. Or a config file with weapon damage stats for a mod and one a cheater would use. It just knows they're different from the original files and you tried to play in a stock server with them. It's sad but it's really the developer's fault for not coding the mod support into the game in the first place.

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Thats because your mod - because of NovaLogic's intentional design - overwrote stock files and content instead of putting it in its own directory structure.

Many people got banned and landed on the MBL because of "good intentioned" mods (not cheat ones like neon skins). Most of those were removed off the MBL later but it's not a case of a problem with PB but a problem with JO and it's mod support. Cheats used the same exact method to alter the game. PB has no way of knowing the difference between a german uniform and a neon glow skin. Or a config file with weapon damage stats for a mod and one a cheater would use. It just knows they're different from the original files and you tried to play in a stock server with them. It's sad but it's really the developer's fault for not coding the mod support into the game in the first place.

Right... My point was that if you look at a MBL and just decide everyone on it is a hack or a cheat then they would be proclaiming some innocent people as such.

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Thats because your mod - because of NovaLogic's intentional design - overwrote stock files and content instead of putting it in its own directory structure.

Many people got banned and landed on the MBL because of "good intentioned" mods (not cheat ones like neon skins). Most of those were removed off the MBL later but it's not a case of a problem with PB but a problem with JO and it's mod support. Cheats used the same exact method to alter the game. PB has no way of knowing the difference between a german uniform and a neon glow skin. Or a config file with weapon damage stats for a mod and one a cheater would use. It just knows they're different from the original files and you tried to play in a stock server with them. It's sad but it's really the developer's fault for not coding the mod support into the game in the first place.

Right... My point was that if you look at a MBL and just decide everyone on it is a hack or a cheat then they would be proclaiming some innocent people as such.

I personally spoke to SkyWolf on our TeamSpeak and he admitted to running the hack. PB admins like Milar can check to see what the person was caught running.

But yes, it's possible there are innocent persons on the MBL. That being said, those individuals should appeal their ban to PB.

Edited by mike0000*BDA*
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Thats because your mod - because of NovaLogic's intentional design - overwrote stock files and content instead of putting it in its own directory structure.

Many people got banned and landed on the MBL because of "good intentioned" mods (not cheat ones like neon skins). Most of those were removed off the MBL later but it's not a case of a problem with PB but a problem with JO and it's mod support. Cheats used the same exact method to alter the game. PB has no way of knowing the difference between a german uniform and a neon glow skin. Or a config file with weapon damage stats for a mod and one a cheater would use. It just knows they're different from the original files and you tried to play in a stock server with them. It's sad but it's really the developer's fault for not coding the mod support into the game in the first place.

Right... My point was that if you look at a MBL and just decide everyone on it is a hack or a cheat then they would be proclaiming some innocent people as such.

I personally spoke to SkyWolf on our TeamSpeak and he admitted to running the hack. PB admins like Milar can check to see what the person was caught running.

But yes, it's possible there are innocent persons on the MBL. That being said, those individuals should appeal their ban to PB.

Should, but what if your not the play every night gamer. What if it was your 1st time on? Most normal users would say screw that i hate that game and move onto another game.

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whatever, anyone that plays GRAW except for me are hackers. At least the ones that kill me, which ends up being everyone...

so yeah all you guys toggle off so I can get some kills

:rofl: Zul, get on and play some more and you'll pick up your skills...

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whatever, anyone that plays GRAW except for me are hackers. At least the ones that kill me, which ends up being everyone...

so yeah all you guys toggle off so I can get some kills

:rofl: Zul, get on and play some more and you'll pick up your skills...

Absolutely, Zulater, it was good seeing another GRnetter last night. Some of your boys are killers already. :)

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I'd buy more old games if I didn't know about CD Keys and bannings and whatnot - I'm afraid of being screwed as previously mentioned.

And also as mentioned, IP bans... Not the best way to go about things for they can be easily avoided.

Bans are a sketchy thing - because of the anonimity of the interweb, it's nearly impossible to keep from banning the innocent along with the guilty. Everything is judgement - and some are more harsh about it than others.

idk, I just find it funny. tsohg... poor guy. Simple detective work took care of his SCE smurfing. I love the part where he gets all uppity when we called him out on it. :)

Obviously the guy isn't too bright in the whole picture. Atleast he was smart enough to have differnt names for the various things he logged into. I'm just curious what type of name he is using now (obviously he's reading this, so the next suggestion is kinda useless) and that makes me wonder if maybe unbanning him for a week to track IP/Usernames....

Anywho. I miss this game. Running on 75% less than normal ram (RE: http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=38078 currently in RMA) makes me cry.

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The players who were placed on the JO MBL for "good" mods were pretty quickly removed and an announcement was made about it pretty well. Anyone who tries to call someone a cheater from that time is going to be set straight pretty quick by the community. Several teams (ours included) had that happen before word got out about it and none as far as I know, have had suffered any lasting effects from that.

Let's be clear about something here for the people not familiar with PunkBuster Global bans or PsB's MBL. I have a feeling some people might be confusing them. Maybe this is needed or maybe it's not but I thought I would put this out there for those that don't know or understand it.

PB normally doesn't BAN automatically for the majority of detections that are raised. It kicks or it just silently logs depending on the violation. Certainly there are some that it will - especially when it detects a KNOWN cheat on a system but even then it usually defaults to kicking the player and logging the violation to allow the admin to decide on the ban or not. PB will level a hardware level ban from ALL PB enabled games (not just the game the player was cheating in) when cheats that are known to circumvent PB functionality are found on a system. Thus making the cheater have to by a new computer or replace the majority of components in his system. But again the majority of violations are either just logged or logged and player kicked from the server. It's up to the server admin to proceed from there with the decision to ban the player.

The MBL - Master Ban List - is a community ban list compiled by members of the community at Punksbusted.com. They are a community dedicated to fighting cheating in games that are utilizing Punkbuster (PB). They take violations that PB catches and doesn't normally ban for and create their ban list from them. The large percentage of these are from Screen shoots that show the player cheating, or custom file or config detections of KNOWN cheat files. This allows for the community to keep cheat detections up to date by adding to the known detections inbetween PB updates.

Say for example some cheater downloads or makes a cheat. One of the admins at PsB gets his hands on it and they see how it installs. They know the file names and the install directory of it. Then they write into the custom configs, to check for the file(s). For example it's looking for the file called OMGHAXORRZ1337BOT.scr (I made that up btw) in the games BIN directory. Well, then PB will look for the file and if it finds it, it produces a violation. The PsB custom configs are configured to either kick or ban and log it.

Now just because a server is running PB does not mean it is using the MBL. If I player lands on the MBL it also doesn't mean that the player cannont play on PB enabled servers again, just not on MBL servers - depends on the violation. But if they land on the PB Global ban list, they won't be able to play on any PB enabled server - no matter the game.

Keep in mind that some cheats automatically land cheaters on PB's global ban list, that is NOT a community ban list and is managed by Evenbalance, the writers of Punkbuster. MBL bans are managed by punksbusted.com.

Edited by FI_FlimFlam
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The players who were placed on the JO MBL for "good" mods were pretty quickly removed and an announcement was made about it pretty well. Anyone who tries to call someone a cheater from that time is going to be set straight pretty quick by the community. Several teams (ours included) had that happen before word got out about it and none as far as I know, have had suffered any lasting effects from that.

Let's be clear about something here for the people not familiar with PunkBuster Global bans or PsB's MBL. I have a feeling some people might be confusing them. Maybe this is needed or maybe it's not but I thought I would put this out there for those that don't know or understand it.

PB normally doesn't BAN automatically for the majority of detections that are raised. It kicks or it just silently logs depending on the violation. Certainly there are some that it will - especially when it detects a KNOWN cheat on a system but even then it usually defaults to kicking the player and logging the violation to allow the admin to decide on the ban or not. PB will level a hardware level ban from ALL PB enabled games (not just the game the player was cheating in) when cheats that are known to circumvent PB functionality are found on a system. Thus making the cheater have to by a new computer or replace the majority of components in his system. But again the majority of violations are either just logged or logged and player kicked from the server. It's up to the server admin to proceed from there with the decision to ban the player.

The MBL - Master Ban List - is a community ban list compiled by members of the community at Punksbusted.com. They are a community dedicated to fighting cheating in games that are utilizing Punkbuster (PB). They take violations that PB catches and doesn't normally ban for and create their ban list from them. The large percentage of these are from Screen shoots that show the player cheating, or custom file or config detections of KNOWN cheat files. This allows for the community to keep cheat detections up to date by adding to the known detections inbetween PB updates.

Say for example some cheater downloads or makes a cheat. One of the admins at PsB gets his hands on it and they see how it installs. They know the file names and the install directory of it. Then they write into the custom configs, to check for the file(s). For example it's looking for the file called OMGHAXORRZ1337BOT.scr (I made that up btw) in the games BIN directory. Well, then PB will look for the file and if it finds it, it produces a violation. The PsB custom configs are configured to either kick or ban and log it.

Now just because a server is running PB does not mean it is using the MBL. If I player lands on the MBL it also doesn't mean that the player cannont play on PB enabled servers again, just not on MBL servers - depends on the violation. But if they land on the PB Global ban list, they won't be able to play on any PB enabled server - no matter the game.

Keep in mind that some cheats automatically land cheaters on PB's global ban list, that is NOT a community ban list and is managed by Evenbalance, the writers of Punkbuster. MBL bans are managed by punksbusted.com.

Mental note... find a hack that i know will global ban on punkbuster. Make a little script that unzips it there. call it "click me for free to see me naked.scr". Create a hotmail account called PamelaAnderson@hotmail.com Send it to all my online enemies. No more online enemies in game. PB did it's job

See an issue here with global banning?

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Keep in mind that some cheats automatically land cheaters on PB's global ban list, that is NOT a community ban list and is managed by Evenbalance, the writers of Punkbuster. MBL bans are managed by punksbusted.com.

Mental note... find a hack that i know will global ban on punkbuster. Make a little script that unzips it there. call it "click me for free to see me naked.scr". Create a hotmail account called PamelaAnderson@hotmail.com Send it to all my online enemies. No more online enemies in game. PB did it's job

See an issue here with global banning?

Ah, if only all of *my* enemies were as stupid as yours are... my life would be so easy. ;)

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Mental note... find a hack that i know will global ban on punkbuster. Make a little script that unzips it there. call it "click me for free to see me naked.scr". Create a hotmail account called PamelaAnderson@hotmail.com Send it to all my online enemies. No more online enemies in game. PB did it's job

See an issue here with global banning?

That's nothing new ROCO. Framing people is as old as multiplayer gaming. It just doesn't happen as often as alot of people want to think it does. It's always a possibility. It doesn't take PB to do it and you might end up being banned from alot of places besides out of games if it happens.

While I think a GLOBAL ban is pretty harsh, there is a process for appealling it at least and some have been removed.

Unfortunately, cheating is only getting worse, not better and bans are a necessary tool for admins to control their servers - as you well know.

I am however completely infavor of a community ban list. Some people here have a problem with that. It's funny but the same thing as what you are currently doing in regards to m9whore and offering info on how to keep him out of servers if people want to. Same thing essentially only it's not contained in 1 simple text file. Yet I hear no real out cry from those who have issues with ban about how evil it is to keep him from griefing your server and anyone elses who wants to. Sorry I just find that duality seriously amusing.

Edited by FI_FlimFlam
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A community list is better than a global ban, for certain. Let's say I look at the community list and see that FI_Flimflam is banned from one server. Should I ban him just for that? Well, I am a discerning server admin, so I take not of WHICH server he's banned from. Ah, it's one that I don't know of. Who's the server admin? m9whore? Ah, FI_Flimflam is safe with me then.

See what I mean? Not the BEST idea, but FAR better than global bans....

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Agreed... The odds are less then the lotteries.

Our logs show him for over a month with the same ip.

The length of time for one person to have an IP addy is irrelevant.

I have the 9mb Cox internet service here in Phoenix. I had the same IP addy from them for 9 months. One day my remote access stops working from work. That night I check my router and bingo, Cox pushed a new IP addy to me. I had to change everything. Since then it's happened four times.

Using IP addy alone is NOT sufficient, or at the VERY least should come with a mechanism whereby someone can appeal. And at least part of the 68 network is used by Cox, as my current IP starts with 68.

IP is not the equivalent of DNA at a crimescene... not even a fingerprint... in fact IP's can be spoofed easier than either of them... and I've seen modded Linksys router that can spoof outbound MACs as well.

-jk

Callsign 3Point

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Umm...MACs are stripped off at the local level guys. They only make it one router hop. If you look, everyone that joins the BDA server will have the same MAC...it'll be the one of the closest router ;)

And BTW this guy's IP is actually pretty much staying the same. SRT banned him 3 times..look at the bottom 3 IPs:

ghostbanned.JPG

Basically if someone shows up with an address in the 68.153.89.x range, you've probably got an m9whore sighting.

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Agreed... The odds are less then the lotteries.

Our logs show him for over a month with the same ip.

The length of time for one person to have an IP addy is irrelevant.

I have the 9mb Cox internet service here in Phoenix. I had the same IP addy from them for 9 months. One day my remote access stops working from work. That night I check my router and bingo, Cox pushed a new IP addy to me. I had to change everything. Since then it's happened four times.

Using IP addy alone is NOT sufficient, or at the VERY least should come with a mechanism whereby someone can appeal. And at least part of the 68 network is used by Cox, as my current IP starts with 68.

IP is not the equivalent of DNA at a crimescene... not even a fingerprint... in fact IP's can be spoofed easier than either of them... and I've seen modded Linksys router that can spoof outbound MACs as well.

-jk

Callsign 3Point

Yeah but... also there is the game name. Since gamespy makes you register it, after a few punt most will not come back.

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A community list is better than a global ban, for certain. Let's say I look at the community list and see that FI_Flimflam is banned from one server. Should I ban him just for that? Well, I am a discerning server admin, so I take not of WHICH server he's banned from. Ah, it's one that I don't know of. Who's the server admin? m9whore? Ah, FI_Flimflam is safe with me then.

See what I mean? Not the BEST idea, but FAR better than global bans....

That works in a "willy nilly no criteria for bans" for the community ban list. Sure if anyone can add bans to the list that can happen. You could have a person added to the list for simple "griefing" in that scenario. But if you have a community dedicated only to adding verified cheats, and logging / archiving the detections rather than just someone's word for it, then it's MUCH MUCH MUCH less likely to have someone added for for something silly or as a "revenge" or "griefing" bans. Those should never land on a community ban list and should only be considered for local bans. If those kinds of things are allowed on a community ban list it loses all credibility as a legitimate anti-cheating ban list and ends up being a "select few admin's preferred" ban list and could have anyone for any reason on it. Anyone desiring to use such a list is going to have problems and the rest of the community wouldn't trust it as an idicator of cheaters. It would be known as a list of people that XYZ's server admins don't like. That is the absolute last thing most people here want and in reality does nothing to help the community or to deter cheaters from entering servers.

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So there is NO good criteria for bans then. I just don't see how it can be done without chancing some sort of abuse or less-than-justified banning of good players who've done nothing wrong.

Local bans I ssupport wholeheartedly of course, since those who pay for a server have the choice to admit or reject whoever they choose. On the global scale, bans are bad...

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Rabbi, I just don't know if you are playing devils advocate or are just an argumentative person always trying to pigeon hole every decent idea that is different than what was used for [GR].

It all hangs on what GRIN does with their AC.

As of right now, in GRAW, I do not see a way to have a trustworthy community ban list. If the AC matures enough to have good logging for cheat violations, then yes it could have good critera for bans with valid cheating detections. Like if GRIN adds some form of screen shots capturing people cheats (like neon skins or wallhack) then yes those are certainly good critera. I would never support a community wide ban list that isn't built off of verifiable, logged, data from a viable AC.

If things stay the same then it will never go past "he said she said" kinds of accusations and isn't exactly a trustworth enough list to be accepted community wide. Sure some admins might share their local bans regardless. But then you are in the scenario you keep bringing up. However is there is a way to have verifiable detections of cheats, and those are what the list is made up of, then I do not see a problem with a community ban list.

Edited by FI_FlimFlam
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replays with [GR] made banning retlockers/speedhackers very very easy and a global ban would not have been an issue because anyone could look at the replay and say yeah that's a hack.

names was harder to spot but it was still pretty evident at times.

graw has no replays so proof of a hack is much harder to come by. screenshots are the only way to catch a cheater (glitcher).

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Cheat logs for local bans would be great! Improving (VASTLY) the ability of the game's integrated A/C is a MUST here. It's got to let the right altered files go (mods, anyone?) and the wrong ones (hacks) go home. I simply don't agree with an all-over-the-free-world ban because a computer program that's reputedly glitchy anyhow flagged you once for having an altered file. Look, even if the player in question IS cheating, what's to say that eventually he/she won't bore of being local banned every time he/she tries to play, and eventually give it up and go legit? Sure, it doesn't happen much if ever, but when you're talking about Ubisoft and GRiN satisfying CUSTOMERS, the last thing you need is a bunch of vindictive punks (as hacks and cheats always are) flaming your product all over the internet, with the justification that they spent $55 for a glitchy game that banned them from playing online ever again. Let that happen ONCE and see how many of the "I'll buy if we get SADS and AC" crowd actually come through. We'll be stuck at 150 players a night for the rest of GRAW's shelf life...

I also recognize and respect that I have a VASTLY minority opinion on the subject, and if the overall community supports global bans (and it appears they do) then I'll just have to deal with that. I can assure you I won't microwave my copy of GRAW. I'll just have to be REALLY careful of what servers I play in. And if I get incidentally banned (as is always my luck) I'll be sure to revive this thread and scream, "I TOLD YOU SO!"

Let's just hope you all are right, as I bet you're most likely gonna get your way with this...

p.s.- thanks for not going the flame route with your responses, folks, and I hope I didn't come across as doing so...

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