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I just found this amazing 19 mintue de classified millitary instructional video about the penetration power of various weapons with different substances called 'Project Metropolis: Marine corps warfighting lab' .

It was an eye opener as to how much power evern low calibur weapons such as a 9mm pistol have. Let along portable warhead launching rockets like the SMAW (thats a new one to me but looks cool).

Check it out for yourself, it's amazing to see how poor brick and cinderblock is at stoping rounds and how dangerous even the chunks they spit through the other side are.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=67...q=armed+assault

Many games going back to Hidden & Dangerous 2 5 years ago were supposed to feature advanced materials and balistics but in general i found them not to be so. I still haven't played GRAW yet so wondered if it has any sophistication as far as the different materials are concerned.

Has anyone done any tests in GRAW to see what materials stop what calibur of rounds?

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I just found this amazing 19 mintue de classified millitary instructional video about the penetration power of various weapons with different substances called 'Project Metropolis: Marine corps warfighting lab' .

It was an eye opener as to how much power evern low calibur weapons such as a 9mm pistol have. Let along portable warhead launching rockets like the SMAW (thats a new one to me but looks cool).

Check it out for yourself, it's amazing to see how poor brick and cinderblock is at stoping rounds and how dangerous even the chunks they spit through the other side are.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=67...q=armed+assault

Many games going back to Hidden & Dangerous 2 5 years ago were supposed to feature advanced materials and balistics but in general i found them not to be so. I still haven't played GRAW yet so wondered if it has any sophistication as far as the different materials are concerned.

Has anyone done any tests in GRAW to see what materials stop what calibur of rounds?

GRAW does not offer this in too many aspects at all. The only gun with any penetrating power is the Sniper rifle, and even it has its limitations.

I would honestly have to say the gaming world is not ready for this type of realism yet. Im sure alot of people will disagree with me, but it would probably be the same people who would yell hack every time they were shot through a wall.

If there was a game out that was 100% hack proof (wont happen) I would say bring it on, the more real, the better. But in todays world full of hacks and cheats there has to be some sort of protection from the BS that would happen if this was implemented.

Im not really sure, as I dont buy every game that pops up on the shelf, but there might be games out there that do offer this, or atleast close to this. But not only am I not buying these games, Im not reading about them either, so they either exist in small numbers or are horrible games. Im sure someone might prove me wrong, as i dont know everything.

But I will say that IMHO we are not ready for a game that would offer such things. I know alot of us think we are ready, I would like to say I am, but Im also a realist, and I know the cries of hack would only grow in number with such features added. And to go deeper, this would also provide a place for hackers to do even better than what they can do already.

Oops p.s. Great video btw, intresting watch. thank you.

Edited by Judge_Recluse
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There are some destroyable objects in game. Wooden fences and cars can be literally taken apart by a saw or the scar H on full auto.

But then if you stand inside a canvas tent you are apparently immune to a tactical nuclear weapon (go figure)

I'd say it was not well implimented at all

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Has anyone done any tests in GRAW to see what materials stop what calibur of rounds?

Yes ive done some tests and i figured out that every material stops every bullet :) no penetration at all exept sniper riffle which shots through the concrete wall ( another ######y feature ). Small wooden bar stops SCAR H bullets. :grin1:

There are some destroyable objects in game. Wooden fences and cars can be literally taken apart by a saw or the scar H on full auto.

Cars can be literally taken apart by pistol to :) and it take the same amount of bullets :grin1:

Edited by Joseph_Q
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But then if you stand inside a canvas tent you are apparently immune to a tactical nuclear weapon (go figure)

Those were also part of the deal that brought the rebels those indestructibility-mod Mi-28's. KEVLAR tents. Can't have your rebels getting grenaded while they sleep, can you? No. OF COURSE NOT! So some wiseass like me went and made a tent woven out of kevlar and polyester, and this Ontiveros guy blew the entire family fortune on a couple dozen of them.

(The helicopters were free, believe it or not.)

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Oh no.....

POLYESTER!

No wonder those Mexicans are in a bad mood

You can't get jiggy in one of those (think of the static)

That explains why they can't shoot straight (they got a serious bed-head problem, probably messes with their aim) :P

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And Mexico, in case you didn't know, can get downright HOT. That 50/50 KEVLAR/polyester weave does NOT breathe well. TALK ABOUT SWEAT! No WONDER there's only ever been ONE dude sighted inside one of those tents! And he was being punished for disobeying a lawful order by a fellow rebel. Everyone else slept outside on hammocks, and subsequently got laid to waste by CPT Mitchell and his fellow capitalist pigs...

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Although SWAT 4 did not model this vert well upon release, the developers and the publishers were kind enough to release the entire source code to teh modding public. the result is a great mod called SSF. (Shrrifs special operations). The SSF mod does an excellent job of modeling metal and wooden materials and their thickensses against caliber of bullet, muzzle velocity, ammo type (Full metal jacket vs. hollow point etc) in order to model material penetrations. I do not know how much every wall and opbject is modeleed, but its enough to truly make the game excellent and realistic with this modeling. Even human and armored human penetration values are modelled. You can easily shoot through a person and have enough energy remaining in the bullet to pass through a wooden door and knock down or even maybe kill a second person on the other side.

http://www.sheriffsdpt.com/main.html

So far, it is the best tactical shooter, with coop (oh yea) that I have ever encountered which addresses this penetration energy issue hed on and htoroughly (not the original game mind you, but the SSF mod)

Sleepdoc

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It's actually one of the "hints" that appears on the loading screen. It says something to the effect "Sniper rounds can penertrate concrete and timber to a depth of 3 feet".

It'd be interesting to get a list of all those "hints", perhaps a modder knows how to extract them all.

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There are a LOT of those hints that we often ignore, aren't there?

For my own personal entertainment, does anyone know WHO wrote those hints? Was it the same studio in LA responsible for the India/Lima mispronunciation SNAFU in DOMINATION, was it GRiN, was it Ubi? Just wondering...

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<stringset>

	<string id="hint_title" value="Hint:"/>

	<string id="hint_1" value="Use the Sniper rifle or ZEUS to attack air threats."/>

 	<string id="hint_2" value="Panhards and troop transports can be taken out with grenades, support and RPG. Watch out for enemies exiting the vehicles."/>

	<string id="hint_3" value="To stay undetected make sure you expose as little as possible of your body. Use low stance and peeking, and try to stay hidden."/>

	<string id="hint_4" value="Never run into an unknown area! Make it a habit to always check and cover doorways, corners and roof tops."/>

	<string id="hint_5" value="Use suppresive fire and handgrenades to flush out enemies that are not moving. Always try to flank the enemies."/>

	<string id="hint_6" value="Make sure to lay down cover fire yourself if you send your team sprinting over open areas."/>

	<string id="hint_7" value="If you encounter a sniper always get in cover before you return fire. Get in cover and plan your kill."/>

	<string id="hint_8" value="Diagonal fire lanes is key to urban fighting. Make sure that you and your team are crossing your firelanes."/>

	<string id="hint_9" value="Some enemy positions cannot be overcome by a frontal attack, you have to separate your team to perform flanking manoeuvers from multiple directions."/>

	<string id="hint_10" value="Try to spread your team in a front and not a line if you can. This gives you much more fire power forward and prevents your enemies from flanking you."/>

	<string id="hint_11" value="Use your gun mounted grenade launcher to hit the wall or obstacle behind or at least close to your enemy. The blast radius is the true killer."/>

	<string id="hint_12" value="Gun nests are your worst infantry enemy. Never attack a gun nest head on. Use your team to flank them and use grenades or counter sniper rifle to take them out."/>

	<string id="hint_13" value="Any shot in a non combat situation will probably alert your enemy if he is within hearing range and not obstructed by buildings or high ground."/>

	<string id="hint_14" value="In urban combat make sure to keep an eye on roofs and archways. Enemy attacks from a high positon are your priority one in a combat situation."/>

	<string id="hint_15" value="In a hot zone move your team individually in short distances, keep the bounding."/>

	<string id="hint_16" value="Lead by example. Keep your team alive and keep them busy."/>

	<string id="hint_17" value="Always use cover when you move. Make sure that you are not far from a cover if suprised by an enemy turning a corner or popping up from hiding."/>

	<string id="hint_18" value="In open terrain keep your men spread out with at least 30 feet apart."/>

	<string id="hint_19" value="Peek to gain fire advantage and to protect yourself from incoming fire. It also gives you better angles."/>

	<string id="hint_20" value="Always try to gain fire advantage when ambushed by infantry. Shoot back then move into cover and plan your counter attack."/>

	<string id="hint_21" value="Always make sure that your flank is protected. Keep an eye on intersecting streets as enemies will try to flank you in urban combat."/>

	<string id="hint_22" value="If your teammate is shot to the ground - suppress his enemy to save him from being shot at again."/>

	<string id="hint_23" value="Consider reloading your weapon (default R) before engaging an enemy group."/>

	<string id="hint_24" value="Running makes you and your team less observant and reactive."/>

	<string id="hint_25" value="Remember that your secondary weapons are often drawn faster from sprinting due to placement and less weight."/>

	<string id="hint_26" value="Never move in a straight line towards your enemy. Always move sideways at high speed or try to move and shoot to cover your own repositioning."/>

	<string id="hint_27" value="Incoming sniper fire has a certain sound to it. Learn how it sounds and you increase your chances of survival."/>

	<string id="hint_28" value="To sneak and recon efficiently, always walk, crawl and use the silencer if you have to engage an enemy."/>

	<string id="hint_29" value="Enemies duck to cover when you fire at them. A cover order or a burst of fire can pin them down to give your team a tactical advantage."/>

	<string id="hint_30" value="Use tactical map for combat planning and getting out of tricky or pinned down situations."/>

	<string id="hint_31" value="Never attack a tank head on. If you do not have the appropriate support or ZEUS rocket - you cannot take out a tank. Try to evade it."/>

	<string id="hint_32" value="In a hot zone use tactical walk. Always aim at danger points while you are moving to your destination."/>

	<string id="hint_33" value="To stay away from incoming cover fire or to simply sneak past enemies use your crouch stance (Default C). You can even fast move while crouching."/>

	<string id="hint_34" value="If you are being shot at when rushing for a cover - try to dive or slide into the cover to minimize yourself as a target (Default C and Ctrl while running)."/>

	<string id="hint_35" value="You can quickly double press the individual ghost selection key (default 1-2-3) to issue a quick move order to the ghost."/>

	<string id="hint_36" value="In the tactical map, you can click your objective headers to get a more detailed description of the objective."/>

	<string id="hint_37" value="The drone automatically detects nearby enemies and displays their intels. It is a powerful recon tool."/>

	<string id="hint_38" value="You can maximize the view of your teammates or drone to look through their eyes (default G)."/>

	<string id="hint_39" value="Use grenades to destroy the covers of entrenched enemies."/>

	<string id="hint_40" value="You can give the cover order from the cross com or tactical map. The cross com is faster but the tactical map gives more precision to the order."/>

	<string id="hint_41" value="The field of fire indicator, at the bottom of your HUD, displays a compass to find your bearings, and points out enemy gunfire."/>

	<string id="hint_42" value="Use the mouse wheel to select the current unit to whom you want to give orders."/>

	<string id="hint_43" value="Running a lot will make your aim worse while you catch your breath. Look at your stamina meter down left in the HUD."/>

	<string id="hint_44" value="You can quickly issue a STOP order to get your team mates to interrupt any given order at any time."/>

	<string id="hint_45" value="Intel diamonds appear on your HUD when your teammates or support have spotted enemies."/>

	<string id="hint_46" value="In the backpack part of the inventory, you can select ammo packs to get more magazines or handgrenades, at the expense of weight."/>

	<string id="hint_47" value="In the inventory, you can also select your secondary weapon and backpack equipment (to equip a rocket launcher for instance)."/>

	<string id="hint_48" value="In the inventory, use the tabs at the bottom of the screen to access your teammates equipment set."/>

	<string id="hint_49" value="If you want better accuracy and less spread equip your assault rifle with a front grip."/>

	<string id="hint_50" value="Equipping your assault rifle or handgun with a silencer, reduces the noise and flash when you fire, at the expense of spread though."/>

	<string id="hint_51" value="Use the Attack order on your ghosts to take out a specific enemy target. Your ghosts can fire the ZEUS RPG at an enemy vehicle or helicopter."/>

	<string id="hint_52" value="When giving a Cover order in the tactical map, press and move the mouse to select the direction to cover (or suppress enemies)."/>

	<string id="hint_53" value="When giving a Move order in the tactical map, press and move the mouse to select a direction to watch when the waypoint is reached."/>

	<string id="hint_54" value="In the tactical map, you can select your teammates on the map if you click onto their diamond."/>

	<string id="hint_55" value='Use F1, F2, F3, F4 (default bindings) to select orders rapidly in the tactical map. Use F5, F6 to "Execute" or "Execute all" orders issued in the tactical map.'/>

	<string id="hint_56" value="In the tactical map, you can click the yellow waypoint button to place a marker that guides you in your 3D view."/>

	<string id="hint_57" value="To enter the extraction helo move close to it and press X, your team will follow. They can enter first if you give them a move order on the transport."/>

	<string id="hint_58" value="You can stand on tiptoe (default V) to look over the highest covers."/>

	<string id="hint_59" value="Hand grenades can be thrown in an arch if you aim high and rolled on the ground if you aim low."/>

	<string id="hint_60" value="The MK48 holds 180 rounds. Use it for cover fire and suppressing enemies."/>

	<string id="hint_61" value="Remember that you can shoot through around 3 feet of concrete or wood using your sniper rifle, and so can your enemies."/>

	<string id="hint_62" value="Use the ZEUS rocket launcher to take out enemy vehicles or helicopters."/>

	<string id="hint_63" value="A heavily loaded character will experience firing dispersion issues; make sure to equip only what is necessary."/>

	<string id="hint_64" value="There is a limit to the weight you can carry in the inventory, you must choose the equipment most suitable for your situation and fighting style."/>

	<string id="hint_65" value="You can pick up additional ammo from the weapons dropped by the enemy or your fallen teammates."/>

</stringset>

Oh yeah... and on topic:

SWAT 3 had far better penetration and ballistics built in than SWAT 4 ever did, even with the mod. Old game, but they did it. Global Operations is another game that did it, but the online play took a HUGE hit because of it. Mass lag and rediculous server hardware requirements.

All that said, you're absolutely right about the result. Most players except the hardcore bitched and bitched, threw around accusations, etc. Only the few people that bothered to really learn the games understood what was happening and didn't complain. While in some ways, it can negatively affect gameplay, I tend to believe that so long as decent maps are made taking into consideration the penetration and the need for real cover, as opposed to just concealment, then it can make for a far more interesting game.

Edited by TedSmith
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I take issue with #5. Suppression is to get the enemy to stay put and keep his head down. While the target is "SUPPRESSED" it can't fire (or can only fire under very limited constraints), allowing friendly personnel to move without exposing themselves to direct fire. "Render the volume and accuracy of the enemy's fire ineffective." Can't shoot me if he's got his head behind a tree planter. And he should know there's a grenade with his name on it...

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Excellent, thanks Ted Smith!

I cleaned it up for easier reading.

1 . Use the Sniper rifle or ZEUS to attack air threats.

2 . Panhards and troop transports can be taken out with grenades, support and RPG. Watch out for enemies exiting the vehicles.

3 . To stay undetected make sure you expose as little as possible of your body. Use low stance and peeking, and try to stay hidden.

4 . Never run into an unknown area! Make it a habit to always check and cover doorways, corners and roof tops.

5 . Use suppresive fire and handgrenades to flush out enemies that are not moving. Always try to flank the enemies.

6 . Make sure to lay down cover fire yourself if you send your team sprinting over open areas.

7 . If you encounter a sniper always get in cover before you return fire. Get in cover and plan your kill.

8 . Diagonal fire lanes is key to urban fighting. Make sure that you and your team are crossing your firelanes.

9 . Some enemy positions cannot be overcome by a frontal attack, you have to separate your team to perform flanking manoeuvers from multiple directions.

10 . Try to spread your team in a front and not a line if you can. This gives you much more fire power forward and prevents your enemies from flanking you.

11 . Use your gun mounted grenade launcher to hit the wall or obstacle behind or at least close to your enemy. The blast radius is the true killer.

12 . Gun nests are your worst infantry enemy. Never attack a gun nest head on. Use your team to flank them and use grenades or counter sniper rifle to take them out.

13 . Any shot in a non combat situation will probably alert your enemy if he is within hearing range and not obstructed by buildings or high ground.

14 . In urban combat make sure to keep an eye on roofs and archways. Enemy attacks from a high positon are your priority one in a combat situation.

15 . In a hot zone move your team individually in short distances, keep the bounding.

16 . Lead by example. Keep your team alive and keep them busy.

17 . Always use cover when you move. Make sure that you are not far from a cover if suprised by an enemy turning a corner or popping up from hiding.

18 . In open terrain keep your men spread out with at least 30 feet apart.

19 . Peek to gain fire advantage and to protect yourself from incoming fire. It also gives you better angles.

20 . Always try to gain fire advantage when ambushed by infantry. Shoot back then move into cover and plan your counter attack.

21 . Always make sure that your flank is protected. Keep an eye on intersecting streets as enemies will try to flank you in urban combat.

22 . If your teammate is shot to the ground - suppress his enemy to save him from being shot at again.

23 . Consider reloading your weapon (default R) before engaging an enemy group.

24 . Running makes you and your team less observant and reactive.

25 . Remember that your secondary weapons are often drawn faster from sprinting due to placement and less weight.

26 . Never move in a straight line towards your enemy. Always move sideways at high speed or try to move and shoot to cover your own repositioning.

27 . Incoming sniper fire has a certain sound to it. Learn how it sounds and you increase your chances of survival.

28 . To sneak and recon efficiently, always walk, crawl and use the silencer if you have to engage an enemy.

29 . Enemies duck to cover when you fire at them. A cover order or a burst of fire can pin them down to give your team a tactical advantage.

30 . Use tactical map for combat planning and getting out of tricky or pinned down situations.

31 . Never attack a tank head on. If you do not have the appropriate support or ZEUS rocket - you cannot take out a tank. Try to evade it.

32 . In a hot zone use tactical walk. Always aim at danger points while you are moving to your destination.

33 . To stay away from incoming cover fire or to simply sneak past enemies use your crouch stance (Default C). You can even fast move while crouching.

34 . If you are being shot at when rushing for a cover - try to dive or slide into the cover to minimize yourself as a target (Default C and Ctrl while running).

35 . You can quickly double press the individual ghost selection key (default 1-2-3) to issue a quick move order to the ghost.

36 . In the tactical map, you can click your objective headers to get a more detailed description of the objective.

37 . The drone automatically detects nearby enemies and displays their intels. It is a powerful recon tool.

38 . You can maximize the view of your teammates or drone to look through their eyes (default G).

39 . Use grenades to destroy the covers of entrenched enemies.

40 . You can give the cover order from the cross com or tactical map. The cross com is faster but the tactical map gives more precision to the order.

41 . The field of fire indicator, at the bottom of your HUD, displays a compass to find your bearings, and points out enemy gunfire.

42 . Use the mouse wheel to select the current unit to whom you want to give orders.

43 . Running a lot will make your aim worse while you catch your breath. Look at your stamina meter down left in the HUD.

44 . You can quickly issue a STOP order to get your team mates to interrupt any given order at any time.

45 . Intel diamonds appear on your HUD when your teammates or support have spotted enemies.

46 . In the backpack part of the inventory, you can select ammo packs to get more magazines or handgrenades, at the expense of weight.

47 . In the inventory, you can also select your secondary weapon and backpack equipment (to equip a rocket launcher for instance).

48 . In the inventory, use the tabs at the bottom of the screen to access your teammates equipment set.

49 . If you want better accuracy and less spread equip your assault rifle with a front grip.

50 . Equipping your assault rifle or handgun with a silencer, reduces the noise and flash when you fire, at the expense of spread though.

51 . Use the Attack order on your ghosts to take out a specific enemy target. Your ghosts can fire the ZEUS RPG at an enemy vehicle or helicopter.

52 . When giving a Cover order in the tactical map, press and move the mouse to select the direction to cover (or suppress enemies).

53 . When giving a Move order in the tactical map, press and move the mouse to select a direction to watch when the waypoint is reached.

54 . In the tactical map, you can select your teammates on the map if you click onto their diamond.

55 . Use F1, F2, F3, F4 (default bindings) to select orders rapidly in the tactical map. Use F5, F6 to .Execute . or .Execute all . orders issued in the tactical map.'

56 . In the tactical map, you can click the yellow waypoint button to place a marker that guides you in your 3D view.

57 . To enter the extraction helo move close to it and press X, your team will follow. They can enter first if you give them a move order on the transport.

58 . You can stand on tiptoe (default V) to look over the highest covers.

59 . Hand grenades can be thrown in an arch if you aim high and rolled on the ground if you aim low.

60 . The MK48 holds 180 rounds. Use it for cover fire and suppressing enemies.

61 . Remember that you can shoot through around 3 feet of concrete or wood using your sniper rifle, and so can your enemies.

62 . Use the ZEUS rocket launcher to take out enemy vehicles or helicopters.

63 . A heavily loaded character will experience firing dispersion issues; make sure to equip only what is necessary.

64 . There is a limit to the weight you can carry in the inventory, you must choose the equipment most suitable for your situation and fighting style.

65 . You can pick up additional ammo from the weapons dropped by the enemy or your fallen teammates.

Full list stored here in RECON section here.

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