GRAW Anti-Cheat available for PGL matching

[ruggbutt]

So the problem in my estimation is how one would apply an AntiCheat that covers the bases without getting deep enough into the rest of my system to let some hack find his way into my WindowsLive Passport through it or something, right?

Therein lies the problem. A truly successful anticheat would be extremely invasive. Had my associates used the one they made there's no way that any hacker would have walked away unscathed. Legal issues aside, how does a server admin make a statement that the anticheat caught someone running a process exploit type hack? I'm reminded of what happened to Witness and RvS. Punkbuster "caught a cheat" with the (then) new MD5 tool. When the tool was released Tony Ray (of PB fame) stated that it was a beta and that it wasn't working 100%. So Witness was run thru the wringer on the Punksbusted website and almost 2 months later Tony Ray looked at the data and proclaimed Witness was innocent. Now with Wit being an UBI admin forever, founder of The Rumble and the other assorted stuff he did for GR he got some attention from PB themselves. Now what would happen to you or I in a situation like that? We'd be hackers branded for life. I was banned from the Punksbusted forums for almost a year after I posted very nicely (I know, out of character for me) and asked how they could crucify someone over a beta piece of software. So when using an anticheat you need a whole heck of alot more than just software telling you someone is hacking. Screenshots are a tool too, but they have their drawbacks. Those with widescreen monitors take different screenshots than those of you with 4:3 ratio (traditional) monitors. Which brings us to replays. I don't know if any of you here have tried my Server Admin Tool. It uses the replay itself (which uses the GR engine) to help catch hackers. It only works in singleplayer and replays. And it gives you green tracers for every bullet fired. Green bullet holes in objects, pink in the player models. Blood spatter was completely removed. And since the replay is just a series of numbers juxtaposing player position, bullet position, etc you didn't have to have a cheat enabled to watch the replay. One of the ACC guys asked Nemon to make him some replays using the different stages of retlock. Anyone can watch those replays and within a week be able to spot some loser hacking on a server. Now the guys we thought were using SIFF (names hack) were tough to catch, cuz it's subjective unless the player is really n00bish and actually stares at walls that people are behind. But of those we figured were using SIFF got caught using retlock. Cuz it's not just fun for the boogereaters to hack only using one feature of a cheat, they had to use more than one. At that point it was irrelevant if the dude was using SIFF, cuz he was busted using retlock.

My point in this diatribe is that ultimately we'd best be served with some sort of software anticheat along with replays. The software would tell you to look at a certain player, and the replay would hold the proof. At least if the replay operated in somewhat the same manner as they did in GR. Knowing what I know and having been active with an anticheat group along with the Witness debacle I have a hard time believing software alone. Software and a screenshot is better but screenies are only good if someone is using something as stupid as acid skins.

And has any of this been addressed with the supposedly forthcoming DX10?

DX10 is going to have some loopholes in it that the hackmakers will exploit. At least until Microsoft catches it and patches it. I'll wait a year or so to go to Vista because it's bound to be a hackers holiday upon release. I'll prolly have to run a third OS on my rig with Vista cuz of our association with Crytek and CryEngine 2, but it will only be for testing purposes. Until everything is patched.

[RAbbi_74]

Kinda what I thought. Next A/C n00Blet question:

How hard would it be to create and implement a replay system for GRAW? Could it be done all server-side? I mean, again we're talking about the game on any PC being able to render (I would assume anyhow) the entire sequence based off raw position/rate data, which could me monitored/copied by a third party software or something integral to GRAW itself, right? Kinda how I figure [GR] replays worked.

You'd watch the replay of a GREAT (read: lucky) shot you took at distance and pegged your enemy in the noodle, but in the replay the tracer missed by a clean foot or so, though still within the reticle spread. There are some randoms/variables involved, sure. But what replays have to do is collect raw position data, rate data, and time data, and suynchronize all that raw data (high sample rate there, so that still isn't a light draw on the system I'm sure) to render the game from any selected perspective as if it were playing out with all AI. Which brings me to another interesting idea...

Let's say you could get a top-end PC to think of a replay that way... it's not really a video playback, but a restart. Same level, same characters. But the player characters are now AI for all intents and purposes. The player(s) involved in the original round just preset all their AI character behaviors, and now we're letting all that data play out. Add-in 4 more player slots during the replay with no clip/collision. The entire round is already mapped out, and so the AI don't get to react to anything, but just follow their predesignated paths and actions. Those 4 player slots are in effect OBSERVERS. Observers of a REPLAY is all. They could go through the replay over and over again, shadowing a different player each time. Shadow 2 or more players if there is a dispute about a particular engagement, so as to share their observatiuons on what they saw specific to that engagement. Start, Stop, Rewind, Fast Forward, SLOW/FAST, et cetera.......

GAWD I need to learn this computer stuff. I'm SO behind. Last time I programmed anything, it was in BASIC.....

[MILAR]

When the md5 checks were introduced into RVS thier was long learning curve in the begining. I think I remember what happend with you ruggbutt. But in time we got really good in creating md5's and cvar checks. Our config got so big we had to learn how to break them down. Every new cheat that came out we wrote 15 checks to look for it. Then we figured out that their was a flaw in PB that allowed us to change the heiarchy on how and where we could look on a person computer. RVS is the only one of all the PB games that did this. PB only scans the game directory. We expounded on that and started runing md5 comparisons and thier entire computer's harddrives, jumpdrives, partitions. (doesnt scan your drive like most think it only compared what files we tell it look for.) And we busted hundreds of people. So many in tthe beging that we didnt know how to handle it, PSB didnt ban for the md5 checks, So we did. Thats when the SBL was made. But all bust we added went through PB and PSB first. After about a year PSB started banning for Md5 checks. Not to long after that Thats about the time naitive cheats came into play. Thier are some private cheats out their but nothing for public that I have found. If pb was introduced into GRAW it would bring more hackers into the game just as a challenge. GRIN didnt give us anything to work with.

Edited September 23, 2006 by MILAR_BDA

[ruggbutt]

How hard would it be to create and implement a replay system for GRAW? Could it be done all server-side? I mean, again we're talking about the game on any PC being able to render (I would assume anyhow) the entire sequence based off raw position/rate data, which could me monitored/copied by a third party software or something integral to GRAW itself, right? Kinda how I figure [GR] replays worked.

While I understand how some game code works, I'm far from being the guy to create it. And I'm going to hazard a guess that to do replays ala GR for GRAW would be something GRIN would have to do. I doubt that anyone here has enough time to rip the code apart and figure out how to do this. To switch to different players in a replay isn't something that you could do without having the source code.

You'd watch the replay of a GREAT (read: lucky) shot you took at distance and pegged your enemy in the noodle, but in the replay the tracer missed by a clean foot or so, though still within the reticle spread.

The tracers in the replays in GR didn't represent the true path the virtual bullet took. They did however represent the state of the reticle at the time the rounds were fired. You could single shot 3 shots slowly and watch the spread of the tracers (and depending on which gun there wasn't much), and the bullet strikes themselves coincided exactly with the spread the tracers took. Typically, the tracers went wider to the right of actual bullet travel.

There are some randoms/variables involved, sure. But what replays have to do is collect raw position data, rate data, and time data, and suynchronize all that raw data (high sample rate there, so that still isn't a light draw on the system I'm sure) to render the game from any selected perspective as if it were playing out with all AI. Which brings me to another interesting idea...

I haven't spent enuf time in m/p to figure out how much of the physics engine has been disabled compared to s/p, if it's been disabled or stripped down at all. Typically, a game that has advanced physics isn't fully enabled in m/p because of how much data has to be sent to each client. Take a game like Soldner where terrain and buildings are fully destructable. Much more data will have to go to each client because even if the client isn't on that part of the map where the building is destroyed, he needs to know that it's gone so he sees what the other clients see. A good example of this was FarCry. You could use the destructable gasoline barrels in m/p, but it wasn't synced for all the clients as this was a major bandwith killer.

That being said if smaller amounts of physics are used in m/p then file sizes should be smaller. There are other variables involved and GRIN stated that the replays would be fairly large if they included that feature. As a server admin/owner I'd be willing to put up with large file sizes, as I'm sure other admins would. But then we're at the juncture where GRIN isn't being paid for other than what we're getting. The economics of it is that replays are low on the scale of importance to UBI. UBI doesn't care about cheating. From a business standpoint as long as they produce a game that's acceptable then there's no reason to spend money on something that a minority of users is going to take advantage of. And that's a shame because online cheating is what ruins games. GR was in bad shape in the months before RedStorm patched it so that we had dedicated serverside replays. Up till then it was difficult to tell if a squad (or individual) was cheating or if they were just good. Once the server patch came out we saw a bunch of teams that all of a sudden sucked. Go figure, huh? GR lasted as long as it did because of replays. I gave my replay tool to every league whose head admin would return my email. I would get on Roger Wilco (that's how long ago it was ) and explain to them how to use it. I sent them the replays that Nemon made for one of our ACC associates. Hackers took a huge hit and with our distribution of our IP sniffer we could prove the identity of a player that was smurfing. I personally tracked a guy who we caught speed hacking on our server, to a team on TCZ over a year and a half later. And he admitted that he was indeed the guy on the replay.

Server admins need more tools. Not just software that says someone is hacking. Not just software that says someone is cheating because certain aspects of their config file don't match the "ideal" stock config. Too many things can go wrong to label someone a cheat when that just isn't the case.

When the md5 checks were introduced into RVS thier was long learning curve in the begining. I think I remember what happend with you ruggbutt.

It was a bad scene in those days. I really was respectful until admins locked my threads for simply asking a question. No hostility or no accusations. Do a search with my name and you can read them yourself. And the ironic part of the whole equation is that Witness and I just don't get along with each other, we never have. We don't like each other much but I respect his community activism and I have a huge problem with an innocent man being branded a hacker. And I jumped on the bandwagon and talked mad smack to him when it first happened. Then once I found out the whole story I publicly apologized on the same boards and took the other road. Because it was the right thing to do. I'm far from perfect but if I make a mistake I fess up. And it was really hard to tell Wit I was wrong cuz of our adversarial history.

Edited September 23, 2006 by ruggbutt

[TacTiXs]

TacTiXs,

While I do understand where you are coming from in regards to this... However, and more to the point (such as what FlimFlam has just pointed out), since this has absolutely nothing to do with a public anti-cheat system, it is nothing more than an attempt to get people involved with the PGL. No offense is meant here, but a good strong solid point that FlimFlam has made.

I'll also point out what I said in my last post... If it isn't made for a public anti-cheat system, there is absolutely no point in bringing it up at all. Again, no offense here, just pointing out the fact that it has no use to the public if the public isn't interested in joining PGL.

To point something else out... Punksbusted (www.punksbusted.com) was able to do something like this for the public. So, it is entirely 'possible' for you to do so also. Now, it seems to me, and I'm sure others who visit these forums, that PGL is not wanting to do something like this. It's a fact that if others can do it, you can too, and something that should be thought about. Otherwise it will be pointless to continue this discussion.

Have you brought us something that we can use? Yes, and most definitely no. The reason I say yes, is if you join PGL, which not all of us want to do and take part in the league to benefit from the usage of this program. No in the fact that we shouldn't have to join the league to get benefit out of it... The whole community should benefit, not just the select few who join PGL. Now, I am not saying any of this is wrong for PGL to do so, but again I point out that it's aboslutely meaningless to talk about something that obviously is not going to be made public due to the fact that PGL is not wanting to do so and only restricting its use to the league/ladders that are offered.

Now, if you are willing to go back to PGL and discuss the usage of this program for the entire public, that's another story altogether. However, until such discussions are made openly, it's not only fruitless, it is pointless to point out a program that will not be made for public use by the GR:AW community and by those who do not wish to join a league/ladder system for GR:AW.

A quick sum up of our AC concept's requirements:

Say you have a thousend active gamers playing 2 - 3 matches a day, each match being played on the best of 3 maps model and 3 rounds per map and you want to be certain that the whole match is being played in a fair way and thus it must be silently watched during the whole time trying to detect if any player is using any cheat/hack.

The pgl ac monitors each round of your match ready to record any activity of known threats plus taking realtime screenshots of your screen and sending all this data to a server. Once on the server, the data is being handled by complex algorythms and data is then made available for download so you can check for yourself on your oppenent's screenshots if he used any visually detectable cheats. Considering that each session ran by the ac produces files of an average size of 800 kb to 1.2 mb each.

If you make the maths, the results are a daily transfer and handling of data of an average size of 18750 Gigs/day, multiply this by 30, you get 562500 Gigs/month.

Needless to say that you need reliable equipment with good internet connections and large bandwidth resources don't you think?

Now are you suggesting that this type of AC support can be provided or supported by just anybody and that it is wise to expose it's source code openly?

We got something that works finally and that will get even better in time but is fragile at the same time.

Considering the social status, an unwise amount of money has been invested in this project, requiring personal and third party sacrifices of a few individuals just to try and make a difference for you to enjoy gaming in a competitive way.

We have knocked on many doors to request support of viable partners/sponsors with no luck yet. We have come too far just to take the risk that our software gets into the wrong hands.

Lastly, you can benefit of all this for free so yes... if you ask me if we brought you something that you can use...

Our AC tool doesn't create any lag or increase latency as it doesnt upload ss's during your game session but only when your session is done.

How exactly does that work when you're requesting data from the client in the form of a screenshot? Does it hold the screenie in memory or write the data to the h/d? And if that's the case then you're still talking CPU cycles, and with GRAW CPU cycles are almost as critical as VPU RAM.

It's cpu usage is very low, the fact that GRAW eats your CPU/RAM is another story, if you want to enjoy graw and especially in mp mode you better be considering investing in a performance based system.

Back O/T: I'm too lazy to go research it for myself, so I'll just come out and ask TacTiXs straight out. Is there any fee required to register as an individual or team @PGL, or for a registered team to d/l the A/C you've created (which I've read praise for elsewhere before)?

Echoing another poster's question, where are the screenshots help specifically until after the session? HDD (which would be my assumption)?

And, last but certainly not least, is there a way on the user/client side (completely independent of PGL, not to offend) to block that program from collecting or transmitting data from any source outside (using default example here) c:\programfiles\ubisoft\ghostreconadvancedwarfighter so taht we may give ourselves a little better assurance of privacy?

Not that I would assert your AC program to be capable of privacy violations, as shipped anyhow, but you know how those few REAL haxxorz can be crafty. Exploitation of your program by a third party to gather information about a user or to open a route of attack into a user's computer is at least theoretically possible. I'll leave it at that...

Thanks for being open with us about this issue. Surely you know how important a working anticheat is to so many people in this forum...

The PGL is totally free to join with no fee attached nor for registering as an individual nor as a team nor for downloading any of our hosted files our software/programs developed by the PGL.

Originally we thought of asking some registering money, so we could ensure a constant improvement of our services and AC developments aswell as providing prizes for the competitions but it was a longshot and had to abandon that idea. PGL has strong foundations but does not have a history and popularity like older leagues such as clanbase so it's only logic that people would not pay to join PGL. We know we have to earn the trust of the gamer and sponsors and we'r more than confident that we will succeed and merit it. Our organization is driven by love for the game and the will to make a difference in the world of gaming competition.

How or where the screenshots are rendered/stored is a technical aspect that i wont reveal as of yet, you do not feed the hackers when you got something that works do you?

The pgl ac has not been designed to scan your system, so your fear that it would be usefull for a hacker to exploit our program in order to collect personal info is needless. Secondly you should not download our software from any other site/location but from our official website, reason is obvious. Lastly, if our program was designed to scan your system and retrieve information, i'm sure programs like zonealarm would be a good solution to control what may and may not be collected by our program.

I hope my answers have given you the slightest satisfaction and that i gave you the impression that PGL is an organization that may well be worth your trust.

Sincerely, Tactixs.

[ToW-Angel]

To sum up your post, the only good it will do is if we were in the league/ladder?

It does not bode well if you and your squad/clan are not of the competitive types who don't want to join and compete in matches just to have an effective anti-cheat.

Another point along these lines is that you will get squads/clans who will signup just for the anti-cheat software. Now, will they be forced to compete?

My squad and I are not competitive andwe do not have matches (at least not yet). So, if you don't have competitive squad/clans joining up, then there is nothing to really talk about if we were forced to compete just to have an active anti-cheat system.

Edited September 24, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[RAbbi_74]

@TacTiXs- good, businessman-like answer. I got at least the basic idea out of it, and feel a little more comfortable with it now. Thanks.

[TacTiXs]

To sum up your post, the only good it will do is if we were in the league/ladder?

It does not bode well if you and your squad/clan are not of the competitive types who don't want to join and compete in matches just to have an effective anti-cheat.

Another point along these lines is that you will get squads/clans who will signup just for the anti-cheat software. Now, will they be forced to compete?

My squad and I are not competitive andwe do not have matches (at least not yet). So, if you don't have competitive squad/clans joining up, then there is nothing to really talk about if we were forced to compete just to have an active anti-cheat system.

In order to support the mass with our ac system, knowing what it generates, you would need incredible ressources. You are concerned about using an effective ac solution that would be totally free for the mass to use and graciously hosted by an organization/company that provides all the neccesary equipment to make this possible. You also expect it to be kept up to date and managed professionally so that you can play your FUNGAMES with a peacefull mind.

Well Tow Angel, last time i checked there was none of this for free... so it's time to wake up. Scaled down to what PGL can support financially, we DO offer this for free. It doesn't matter which goodwilling community/group would have developed this system, it makes no sense to believe that he/she can support this and graciously offer such service to the mass just because they want no cheaters in their FUNGAMES.

We couldn't possibly support fungames, nor could you... In fact, if PGL gets bigger and we don't find any goodwilling sponsors to support us, we would have to stop supporting this ac ourself...

So i guess you may be glad that there is atleast someone that cares enough for the players to be able to play in competition with support of an ac.

Funny i've just been called a businessman while i'm not and have no businessplan whatsoever but i wont deny that if this ever gets anywhere and it happens that our staff can earn some money while doing what we like, i wont spit on it.

Now i'm sorry (truely am) if i cannot support your request for a free public ac but this is just impossible.

Lastly and to answer this specific question: 'Another point along these lines is that you will get squads/clans who will signup just for the anti-cheat software. Now, will they be forced to compete?'

Since we pay for our bandwidth and equipment and provide this for free, if people would just sign up and take advantage of this ac for other purposes but that of competition inside the PGL or any other event we host, then this would be considered stealing. Showing a total lack of respect to an entity that tries to help out where it can. So yes, if you want to take advantage of our ac you will need to compete at PGL for that matter. We listen to the community to provide them the kind of competition they like, so if you ever get interested in competing with videogames, don't hesitate to voice your opinion over at Pro-GamingLeagues.com

Sincerely, Tactixs.

[TacTiXs]

If you make the maths, the results are a daily transfer and handling of data of an average size of 18750 Gigs/day, multiply this by 30, you get 562500 Gigs/month.

Needless to say that you need reliable equipment with good internet connections and large bandwidth resources don't you think?

I'm sorry, i need to correct myself for writing down misleading numbers. I have written down 'gigs' while i was calculating in mb's.

So to correct the math, monthly data transfer and handling for a thousend players would be 562.5 GB in upload and at least the same amount in download, making an average total of data transfer equal to 1100 GB/month.

Again, sorry for posting misleading info... didn't intend to.

[ToW-Angel]

Then there is absolutely no point in discussing it further as you would be forced to compete in matches/ladders/leagues in order to have an effective anti-cheat system and will have to be a member of PGL.

While I do understand your points that you have made, the point I'm making is that you have to be a member of PGL have matches/leagues/ladders and will be forced to compete.

In otherwords, this is an attempt to get people to signup for matches/leagues/ladders and nothing more than a promotional tool for PGL to get more known to the community.

In my last words on this topic, there is no effective anti-cheat (yet) for the community to use as the one you have for PGL is strictly for members who have matches/leageus/ladders in PGL.

I know that I am not wrong with the points I have made here. And, I mean absolutely no offense, but this is how it is being presented.

[RAbbi_74]

And that's right. It's JUST FOR THOSE COMPETING AT PGL. So, GOOD FOR EVERYONE COMPETING AT PGL, boo for the rest of us, andthis is all very interesting and redundant.

Thanks again, TacTiXs.

[ShadowXavier]

Tow_Angel:

I just cant understand your outright scepticism towards PGL and our Anti-Cheat. For the first time, a league actually pays to get a proffessional developed anti-cheat for use in gaming, and also hosts servers to make it function, and all this for FREE. And you complain about being forced to match?!?!

Havent you read one single word about what the costs would be? Instead of moaning about how we force clans to be competitive to use the Match Sneeker, how about supporting the idea of somebody doing something for the commnity. At least now, the ones who play matches have Anti-Cheats. Thats gotta be better than nothing... right?

And for the thing about having to sign up at PGL. Yes, of course you have. This is a PGL concept, paid by us, maintenaced by us... since the economic resources arent plentyful, we had to decide how it could be put into use.

I dont see why we should be ashamed, focusing a program we have beared the costs of, to benefit us, and the players at the same time.

When you, or anyone else, gets the financing of making it public, then give us a shout, and we can start working on a public soloution.

Until then, I hope you understand why we have made this AC, and that since we cant give it out to everyone, we START by supporting the players that support us. I cant see that this wouldnt be logic.

Thanx for your patience.

Edited October 2, 2006 by ShadowXavier

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Tow_Angel:

I just cant understand your outright scepticism towards PGL and our Anti-Cheat. For the first time, a league actually pays to get a proffessional developed anti-cheat for use in gaming, and also hosts servers to make it function, and all this for FREE. And you complain about being forced to match?!?!

Havent you read one single word about what the costs would be? Instead of moaning about how we force clans to be competitive to use the Match Sneeker, how about supporting the idea of somebody doing something for the commnity. At least now, the ones who play matches have Anti-Cheats. Thats gotta be better than nothing... right?

And for the thing about having to sign up at PGL. Yes, of course you have. This is a PGL concept, paid by us, maintenaced by us... since the economic resources arent plentyful, we had to decide how it could be put into use.

I dont see why we should be ashamed, focusing a program we have beared the costs of, to benefit us, and the players at the same time.

When you, or anyone else, gets the financing of making it public, then give us a shout, and we can start working on a public soloution.

Until then, I hope you understand why we have made this AC, and that since we cant give it out to everyone, we START by supporting the players that support us. I cant see that this wouldnt be logic.

Thanx for your patience.

You have to understand was aren't looking for a one league solution, but one that can be used for every league + Public servers. What you are doing is GREAT for your league but benifits none of us here unless we play in your league.

[ShadowXavier]

Yes, Ive heard that argument 15 times now.

But as long as there are no resources to make that program public, what do you suggest that we should do with the anti cheat? Close it? Delete it? Make all the work vanish?

I'll tell you one thing, that is definantly not the way to make a AC for the community.

I dont think you realize that we would really like to give out a free public AC to everyone. Not only because it would help everyone get rid of cheaters, but also beacuse we in PGL would benefit from the goodwill of the community by doing so. So belive me when I say that it's not because we dont want to, it's because we can't afford it.

and still... it's better that a small group gets to use it, than no group at all. Am I wrong about that?

[ToW-Angel]

Tow_Angel:

I just cant understand your outright scepticism towards PGL and our Anti-Cheat. For the first time, a league actually pays to get a proffessional developed anti-cheat for use in gaming, and also hosts servers to make it function, and all this for FREE. And you complain about being forced to match?!?!

Havent you read one single word about what the costs would be? Instead of moaning about how we force clans to be competitive to use the Match Sneeker, how about supporting the idea of somebody doing something for the commnity. At least now, the ones who play matches have Anti-Cheats. Thats gotta be better than nothing... right?

And for the thing about having to sign up at PGL. Yes, of course you have. This is a PGL concept, paid by us, maintenaced by us... since the economic resources arent plentyful, we had to decide how it could be put into use.

I dont see why we should be ashamed, focusing a program we have beared the costs of, to benefit us, and the players at the same time.

When you, or anyone else, gets the financing of making it public, then give us a shout, and we can start working on a public soloution.

Until then, I hope you understand why we have made this AC, and that since we cant give it out to everyone, we START by supporting the players that support us. I cant see that this wouldnt be logic.

Thanx for your patience.

I have read, but you have not... There is no point in discussing something that is not meant for the entire public. Why bring something up if it will only be for the elite few who wish to be competitive while others just enjoy playing and needing a cheat free atmosphere? Until this is little statement is totally understood, there is no need for further discussion about the PGL Anti-Cheat. AND, just some FYI, ShadowXavier, you will see where I did mention that I understood about the system requirements to run something like this, afterall... I am a computer technician... I think I have a clue.

This section of the forums is meant for a community anti-cheat, not a laddering/tournament anti-cheat. That's the idea behind this section of the forums.

Edited October 2, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[Rocky]

Ther is no point in discussing something that is not meant for the entire public.

I don't quite follow that line of thinking, just because it's only available to signed up members, doesn't mean it can't be talked about or promoted outside of PGL.

[ToW-Angel]

Isn't there a forum for the promotion of League/Tournament play? That's where it should've been then, as this thread is nothing more than a promotion of PGL, which both FlimFlam and myself have noted a few times.

[ZJJ]

This section of the forums is meant for a community anti-cheat, not a laddering/tournament anti-cheat. That's the idea behind this section of the forums.

I thought leagues are part of the community?

This is an open discussion forum regarding Anti-cheat solutions... in all forms.

[ToW-Angel]

This section of the forums is meant for a community anti-cheat, not a laddering/tournament anti-cheat. That's the idea behind this section of the forums.

Really? Can you point out to me where it says that by one of the staff? I can't seem to find it in the pinned topic, nor the forum description.

I'll gladly move this thread, if I am missing where this was stated.

Point is being missed... To recap my point:

Isn't there a forum for the promotion of League/Tournament play? That's where it should've been then, as this thread is nothing more than a promotion of PGL, which both FlimFlam and myself have noted a few times.

[ZJJ]

If the staff felt this thread needed to be moved to a different forum, it would be.

The topic title has been changed to reflect the scope of conversation a bit more accurately. Can we get back on topic now?

[ToW-Angel]

If the staff felt this thread needed to be moved to a different forum, it would be.

The topic title has been changed to reflect the scope of conversation a bit more accurately. Can we get back on topic now?

Not to be a pain at all... But, it is still a promotional thread even moreso by the title now, but it is better than it was before, and there is nothing really to discuss except for matching, laddering and tournaments based on the title IMHO.

Now it sounds like it should belong in the GR Series Clans and Ladders even more.

[TacTiXs]

Any forum admin can move this thread to 'GRAW PC VERSION' forum please? Atleast someone is gonna be glad then...

Put it in the graw forum though as that's our common intrest, thk you.

Nobody reads the GR series clans and ladders forums...

Edited October 2, 2006 by TacTiXs

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Ther is no point in discussing something that is not meant for the entire public.

I don't quite follow that line of thinking, just because it's only available to signed up members, doesn't mean it can't be talked about or promoted outside of PGL.

I think the reply is more that PGL needs there own thread like this one, but not inserted into to others.... This is about the 4th thread I've seen mentioning it... although the only one they started the topic in (besides the tournament)

I understand it's good for there league.

This reminds me of LT's ACP a little to much in GR1

I'm sorry if you take this wrong but in some of the posts I have read it has come across like it's a public all in one solution, which it is not. It's somewhat misleading that way and irritates those that run public servers that it cannot benifit in any way such as myself.

Now market it to other clans and ladders and you may have yourself a hit. Figure a way for the client to auto send the info to the public server or clan website for confirmed cheating and we will turn our eye.

Edited October 3, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[ShadowXavier]

Well, it was never ment to mislead anyone to belive it worked in fungames. I havent seen a post yet that would work that way, but then again, I haven't read all posts in here.

As I have said before, we would want a public AC aswell. We care just as much for GRAW and a wide playing community as we do for the league we run. There is a donate option on our site www.pro-gamingleagues.com. If you or anyone else have the opportunity to help us fund a public soloution, please make use of it so we can get started. Just remember that professional coders arent cheap, and are needed to mod the AC into a steady AC for public use.

Edit: If you are afraid we will waste the money on liquor and parties, be sure to dedicate the money to AC programming in a PM or on our forums

Edited October 3, 2006 by ShadowXavier

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Well, it was never ment to mislead anyone to belive it worked in fungames. I havent seen a post yet that would work that way, but then again, I haven't read all posts in here.

As I have said before, we would want a public AC aswell. We care just as much for GRAW and a wide playing community as we do for the league we run. There is a donate option on our site www.pro-gamingleagues.com. If you or anyone else have the opportunity to help us fund a public soloution, please make use of it so we can get started. Just remember that professional coders arent cheap, and are needed to mod the AC into a steady AC for public use.

Edit: If you are afraid we will waste the money on liquor and parties, be sure to dedicate the money to AC programming in a PM or on our forums

If you post the pictures of naked chicks at your parties, i'm sure you'll get enough donations to meet any coders needs