Tracking Players

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Forget it... I quit.

ToW-Angel

This isn't ment as an argument but to show all angles and viewpoints. Injectors believe it or not have some good uses. I can tell who is talking on our ts when in game and who joins what channel with voiceoverlay (check it out sometime... teamspeak overlay has issues in GRAW). These things have to be considered.

GR1 didn't have a global ban and cheaters were dealt with accordingly. A group put together an AC site where you could post and have your IP's reviewed by more then one which was great. But sometimes it took weeks. Each server handled there own ban. If they had a problem with a guy and found his name there they could ban him if they wished. If you had a bad admin that banned you unjustly it was only local to that Server.

GRAW needs a file checker also. That is how the autosniper that was seen before the AC was stable came into effect. Someone change a gun file and blammo there client let them have an auto sniper on the servers. This wasn't an injector or a directx hack or even 3rd party.

I have ran our server for around 5 years now and have seen just about every hack out there for GR1. (Except super tiptoe... never had someone do that on our server)

I have also seen what automated one's like punkbuster would do... and you all remember kidbuster that flopped and LT's AC thing that has been known in the past to have issues

I fully understand the global concept, but i also know what it's like when it has issues and the performance hit they can induce into games.

Let me add to this.. for the injectors... what if you are running a teamspeak overlay to see who is on your comms while in game? It uses an injector. Will this pose a Global ban?

I can't believe every screenshot on punkbuster for the global ban is voted upon. also that would take to much time and allow a cheater to run amok for way to long.

The way GRAW is designed, the AC has to check files. not everything is handled by the server meaning some of which is client side. With out the AC if you were to mod a map and take out the walls you wouldn't see them when you play. The AC has to check files.

Punkbusted.com does not ban global, only evenbalance(the makers of punkbuster) can ban global. Punkbuster.com is no more then a local ban, which are shared to server admins if they wish to use them.

Your question about Teamspeak overlay is easy, since GR:AW doesn't have a Anti-Cheat you have nothing to worry about.

I know i am saying if punkbuster were to come to Graw or something similar.

It does have an anticheat, just in a filechecking form.

I see what ToW_Angel was getting at with the global IP ban initiated by AC software based on a client computer's checked files mismatching an approved configuration. I think it's the best idea I've heard yet for global, but global is still EVIL.

Note she says she's not talking about file checking... instead for direct 3d hacks and injectors which are almost impossible to nail as you could just rename them + it would have to check the whole hard drive as opposed to just the game directory.

or resident memory, which would be a whole nother resource hog in itself.

Here's what I foresee as the biggest problem with an anti-cheat built-in to the game itself... GRiN will have to continue to develop the checks system until the budget runs out on the game and then we will not recieve anymore updates to the A/C system for checks to be accomplished.

We do need something that will globally keep cheaters out of all servers running the A/C, even if it's a consortium of squads sticking together, sticking to their guns and fighting with every resource possible. A global banning system is just a repository for known cheaters database which the A/C system can check PCID's against the repository of players to see if a flag is raised. If there's a flag on a player PCID, that PCID is denied connection to the server. That is not system intensive and it only takes a brief moment to check a repository, and/or the A/C system downloads the database to the computer locally and is checked there. It doesn't matter where the slave database is maintained as long as there is a global ban list that the A/C system can get updates from.

Maybe I was off in saying that the A/C system should automatically banning players, but they should at least get kicked from the server, then a flag annotated against the player so that people could verify if it is a hack, D3d injector (not TS Overlay, which I also have and works for me on GR:AW), system variables and environmental checks, along with resident memory checks. Resident memory checks only take a split second and not system intensive.

But, there definitely has to be a global database of cheaters that will work with the A/C system so that they cannot get into any server running the A/C. Agreed? That way we can know who the cheaters are and we can keep them out of as many servers as possible. The A/C system is only as good as the server admin... We can agree on that too...

PunksBusted has a database of cheaters in which server admins can download and add to their server so that even if the A/C system doesn't catch them, it will still deny the cheater access to the server based on PCID in the form of a MD5 Hash of the PCID.

This will ensure that they cannot circumvent the A/C if the A/C misses a new cheat on the block.

Maybe not global banning, but definitely must have a global repository for all servers to get an updated DB of verified cheaters.

Can you all at least see that much of what I am talking about?

As i was saying i know how it works... but here is the thing.. Who will do it? Punkbuster is the only one that I know of that has at least some stability. So unless Grin does it, there is no one to do it.

With even ip blocking servers can share there logs and update a txt file with new ip's if needed if they wanted it shared. The problem is ... and the ACC for GR1 was this way... it takes time for people to review it and with the ACC it was 100% agreement or not on the list of confirmed. By this time the cheater may have played 10 matches.

Next thing s... Ladders won't go by a non-santioned list. That means you have to be able to let them in unless the ladder has confirmed they are a cheater or you show them proof of in game cheating. With a global you can't unban.

So basically here is the options.

#1 Punkbuster

#2 Local only with GRin's checks in place.

#3 Community of server admins reviewing (could takes weeks for a verdict though) and a list of confirmed by them cheaters.

The community here as a whole i think would only accept #2 and ladders may accept #3 if they trust who is doing it.

[ToW-Angel]

We as a community could do it, or someone like one of the other two places mentioned... Doesn't matter who maintains the DB of known and convicted cheaters, as long as there is a list of known and convicted cheaters.

You don't always have squads who are willing to share information like that with other squads, that's another reason there has to be a global ban list that the A/C can download. The A/C system has to have a ban list containing the PCID... CD Key will not work... Personally, I don't want someone having my CD-Key as they could possibly get their hands on the DB File, and some how get me in trouble. PCID is the only way the A/C system will actually work because it's based on the PC it's self by creating a truly unique ID based on that specific computer.

File checks are not enough, nor will it ever be enough. There has to be a way to check many other possibilities... Like I mentioned before... D3d hack, injectors, altered game files and resident memory checks, much like the CVAR checks that PB does, plus system and environmental variables.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

I don't want someone having my CD-Key as they could possibly get their hands on the DB File, and some how get me in trouble.

Agreed, unless the game somehow hashes it.

We have a banned list in our forum with proof for every ban. Other admins can compare names and get the last known ip there also. I think BDA also said it's possible to get there mac address.

If the community Grows it will be a full time job to keep that list going.

For now though... lets see what comes with the dedicated server files as there may be a way through there that could be exported or imported.

[ToW-Angel]

The master ban list should be maintained on 1 website, updated hourly through where the A/C can download a new update if it is required. If there is no update, no download of the file necessary... If there is an update, the A/C automatically downloads the new DB of known cheaters.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

This was attemped in GR1...

Grab this utility an analize it. It used IP but tried for a master ban list. Unfortunately it didn't make it.

http://www.battalioncommand.com/bcutils/bcutils.htm

[ToW-Angel]

I will also go on to say that updates to the A/C need to be updated automatically from 1 source and separately from a game update patch.

[Pulaski]

So basically here is the options.

#1 Punkbuster

#2 Local only with GRin's checks in place.

#3 Community of server admins reviewing (could takes weeks for a verdict though) and a list of confirmed by them cheaters.

The community here as a whole i think would only accept #2 and ladders may accept #3 if they trust who is doing it.

GRIN..please take note, if you only want 150-200 people playing GR:AW on-line listen to the above post. The anti-cheat in GR:AW now is worthless, having server admins frap players is worthless, the files alone would be of great size and then you would have to view more then just one player. Which means even bigger files.

So #2 and #3 will never work long term and then only maybe for a very small group, which means 150-200 players. Building an anti-cheat like PB from the ground up would take how long? years? most likely. Looks like the only way to go is with #1.

When you talk about the "community here" you should note that as being and/or speaking of gr.net, not the GR community as a whole. The GR community is widespead and GR.net is only a small part. Thousands of GR players do not post here; they have their own community, example ladder community's/gaming community's.

Of the hundreds of people I know from [GR], most talk about anti-cheat, server files and replays. Clans/Gaming community's will not even touch the game without the above. Which means 150-200 players on-line.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Pulaski

[ruggbutt]

I'd like to reiterate that global bans are bad, especially when the human element is taken out. If ya'll don't know about Witness being banned by a beta MD5 tool ask some of the old timers about it. He was unfairly banned and Tony Ray from PB had to straighten it out. The only thing is, Witness was well known in the community, ran The Rumble ladder and was an UBI mod forever. Because of who he was Tony Ray looked at the "evidence" and issued a statement that he was in fact not cheating. This after 2 month of Witness being called all kinds of names.

Having been one of the founding members who started the GR anti-cheat community I'd like to think that my experience says at the very least that I know of what I speak. Do not globally ban anyone on software or screenshots alone, and since Fraps is iffy you're better off just doing a server ban for the admins that talk to each other.

Unless you think you can live with yourselves by shutting someone out of the game that just might be innocent.

If ya'll wanna see how well we did our job, here's the link to the "Are you Banned?" section of our forums (this only relates to the BSR dedicated server), the ACC forums are separate and are private. Alot of the guys posting in there got caught smurfing when they were cheating, but our IP logger showed us who they really were. Several of them admit to what they did and saw nothing wrong with it......

Edited September 27, 2006 by ruggbutt

[ToW-Angel]

While I do agree to an extent, there is honestly not a better way to keep 1 cheater out of many servers.

The ban list can be maintained by a 3rd party who has no interest either way... In this case, GRiN or whomever they choose to have the responsibility.

However, if the Anti-Cheat finds an actual cheat itself, what should happen? They get to continue to play on any server they choose? Would you want them in your server if they were caught on someone elses?

There are two directions that can be taken. 1) if the anti-cheat system finds a legitimate cheat, it bans them and adds them to a master ban list and all bans are reviewed. 2) we hope that we, the community, are able to spot an actual cheat, we get as many screen shots as possible, any logs available and we question others who were in the server with them and vote on if that person was in fact cheating.

While one has no human input, the other does and both will make mistakes. We are not perfect either, and neither is the anti-cheat system.

While it was the case of a person who was not actually cheating... I'd rather be sorry about it than to let it go and someone continues to cheat.

I will have to say that is 1 exception in thousands, and by far not the normal case.

Master ban lists are good. But, I will agree to a point that maybe it should take human involvement to determine if a person is in fact cheating.

Now, here's an idea...

If a person is suspected of cheating, the anti-cheat system flags that player and put him on a 'watch-list'. And, if not found cheating, he/she is removed from the list entirely. If the person is in fact cheating, then the person gets added to the master ban list that the anti-cheat system checks to ensure that person is not able to enter any anti-cheat enabled server.

It still is a viable option to have a master ban list and the anti-cheat system should check the ban list to ensure that cheaters will not be able to enter a server with an enabled anti-cheat.

This would eliminate dispersion of a ban list that could be updated as much as hourly. I certainly would not want to check a website hourly to see if the ban list has been updated. So, in this sense, it will work very well if there was a repository for the master ban list that the Anti-Cheat system could check.

[ruggbutt]

The ban list can be maintained by a 3rd party who has no interest either way.

No such animal. A third party who truly isn't part of the A/C community will be hosting the banlist as a favor to someone. And we still need an A/C that works. Punkbuster isn't 100% and how long has it been around? Are you willing to be personally responsible for branding someone a hacker based on software?

As I stated above, I have years of experience helping to put together an A/C community. Software based A/C is spotty at best and master ban lists should be on the master ban list.

While I understand you stance on cheaters (as I am the same way) there is just too much that can go wrong basing a master ban list on A/C tools that are currently available for GRAW. The tools available to the community aren't good enuf to justify a master ban list. I know that's not something you want to hear, but the first time a situation occurs like the Witness debacle, you and anyone else who pushed hard for this will be crucified worse than the guy who was accused for cheating. I'll be one of the people leading the charge saying "I toldya so". Punksbusted's response to Witness was "Sometimes accidents happen". I'll bet Wit feels better. He completely stopped doing anything related to online gaming and this community lost an important member.

Ask SRS Undertaker or Zulater who have tons of experience with an A/C community and tools, they'll most likely tell you that the tools we had for GR are magnitudes better than what we have for GRAW.

Edited September 27, 2006 by ruggbutt

[ToW-Angel]

We are in agreement about the A/C not being good enough currently, that is for sure.

The only thing at the moment is that GRiN is paying attention to threads like this that are truly important.

[ZJJ]

Excuse my ignorance up front as I don't have to deal with cheaters since I don't run a game server, but I'm trying to understand the situation here.

Basically, what I am reading is that people are advocating a master ban list where a person is banned from ALL servers if they caught cheating on ONE server. Do I understand this correctly?

If so, this is saying that people are not given the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Personally, I would rather see a master list of people who have been caught cheating that an admin can reference to see if they are potentially habitual cheaters, but the ban is taken at the individual server level if the person is caught there.

Once again, I apologize if I did not understand this correctly.

[ToW-Angel]

Basically, what I am reading is that people are advocating a master ban list where a person is banned from ALL servers if they caught cheating on ONE server. Do I understand this correctly?

Unfortunately, once a cheater always a cheater. Companies like PunkBuster do not give players a second chance. They learn the lesson when their computer is banned from playing any game that has an enabled anti-cheat.

I certainly do not want to give someone a second chance that was honestly caught cheating.

But, yes... you are correct.

[ruggbutt]

Basically, what I am reading is that people are advocating a master ban list where a person is banned from ALL servers if they caught cheating on ONE server. Do I understand this correctly?

Yep, that's what they want. They want to trust a software A/C, when other kinds of A/C such as Punkbuster still aren't 100%.

If so, this is saying that people are not given the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.

That's where we disagree. If you are going to cheat then you're going to have to do it consciously and take several steps to do so. All the while that you're searching for hax, downloading, installing and testing your new cheat you have the opportunity to not jack around the people you'll be playing online with. Now if you can't change your mind during those four steps, then you don't deserve a second chance.

Read a couple of threads from our ban section in our forums. The guys who were caught cheating had their squaddies backing them, and their attitude was that cheating is ok as long as it's not in a match. Seriously ZJJ, take some time to read several of the larger threads in there. It's amazing at how they're just not sorry. I've had 2 death threats and several threats to have me hurt physically. One guy here in town begged me to meet him. People who cheat are ignorant and don't think they are responsible for their actions.

Edited September 27, 2006 by ruggbutt

[FI_FlimFlam]

ZJJ, let me also clarify some things for you.

They really are referencing 2 existing different ban lists but not really making a differentiation between the 2.

First the reference is the Punkbuster GLOBAL BAN list. To get on this list a cheater not only is caught cheating in game, but is using a cheat that is found to actively circumvent or prevent Punkbuster from operating properly. That is to say, the cheat prevents client screen shots for example. When a player lands on this list they are banned from all Punkbuster enabled games because PB uses a generated hash # based on the hardware configuration in the client's computer. PB uses that to keep them out of all the PB ENABLED servers. Not every server out there. Easily 95% of cheaters do not land on this list. PB just kicks them out of the server - only the ones with known cheats of PB circumvention are actually banned by PB by default.

List number 2 that is being referenced is a COMMUNITY BAN list that is maintained by Punksbusted. That members of the community share to keep cheaters caught by the use of Punkbuster and the admin configured extra checks. These checks are primarily based on 4 things, Default Punkbuster detections and kicks, game file integrity checks, CVAR checks (game settings checks like macro-like keybinds, gamma, POV/FOV, etc) and file checks for the existence of known cheat files. It's this list that people are hoping to emulate.

The second list is also the one that rugbutt is referencing about the Wittness scuffle.

At issue is the fact that with a shared ban list someone might land on it who is innocent and be banned from multiple servers.

Currently there is VERY UNLIKELY that a person with a community ban list will end up being GLOBALY banned from every server in GRAW. However, depending on how many admins decided to use this hypothetical ban list also could mean that they would end up being banned from a large % of existing servers. Not to metion the damage to a reputation as a result.

I have been a proponent of ban lists but only under the most strigent critera but that also means that what ever A/C is used MUST be robust and accurate to the nth degree. Currently we are miles and miles away from that. I would even prefer to only have people on the community ban list who are busted with community configured checks. That is to say, the poeple who land on it are guilty of positively detected cheat files, or settings that are used to gain an advantage over other players. That way what the community decides is "cheating" is what would get a person landed on the Community Ban List. And that doesn't include replays IMO. I feel they are just too open for intrepretation. The rest of the default AC detections are just handled with Kicks from the server or local bans if the server admin decides to do that. And local "griefers" don't land on it either.

Regardless if you do or don't like it, people are going to share ban lists. Some GRAW admins already are. At issue is just how widespread it will be and how much or little bias will be involved.

Anyway the long and short of it is, it's not going to be possible to really implent this any time soon. The A/C isn't robust enough. I just doesn't have the features currently to move beyond simple file checking. They are looking into it but it's still a ways off if it will change.

Edited September 27, 2006 by FI_FlimFlam

[aussiereg]

Forget it... I quit.

Well !! i never thought i would see it, thats the best post u have made in this subject..

I was begining to think that it would make no difference what anyone else would post in responce to your hard line would have any merrit,and i was just thinking...man you need to get a life, LOL..

I have not read past this post, but i somehow dont think you will ever agree to disagree, and just get on with the object of the whole thing, and that is to play the game, ban whoever you like from your own server, and leave others to do it their way, i dont use the anti cheat, but if i see someone doing something over the top or stupid, OUT they go, end of story...

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Forget it... I quit.

Well !! i never thought i would see it, thats the best post u have made in this subject..

I was begining to think that it would make no difference what anyone else would post in responce to your hard line would have any merrit,and i was just thinking...man you need to get a life, LOL..

I have not read past this post, but i somehow dont think you will ever agree to disagree, and just get on with the object of the whole thing, and that is to play the game, ban whoever you like from your own server, and leave others to do it their way, i dont use the anti cheat, but if i see someone doing something over the top or stupid, OUT they go, end of story...

Actually if you join a server that has the anticheat enabled... you are in fact using the anti cheat

[ToW-Angel]

Forget it... I quit.

Well !! i never thought i would see it, thats the best post u have made in this subject..

I was begining to think that it would make no difference what anyone else would post in responce to your hard line would have any merrit,and i was just thinking...man you need to get a life, LOL..

I have not read past this post, but i somehow dont think you will ever agree to disagree, and just get on with the object of the whole thing, and that is to play the game, ban whoever you like from your own server, and leave others to do it their way, i dont use the anti cheat, but if i see someone doing something over the top or stupid, OUT they go, end of story...

I'm not going to get baited by this... But, you really should read my other posts. Otherwise, you will not understand what I'm getting at. FlimFlam explained it a lot more.

And you took what I said entirely out of context.

[ZJJ]

Adding another perspective to this discussion. Again from the standpoint of a user and not a game server admin.

Firstly, I'll state for the record that I think the majority of people who cheat are aware of their actions and something needs to be done about them.

However, what about those that are naive and really do not know that they are using a cheat that they got from a link where someone says "this is cool, try it"? So this naive person downloads this file, that unbeknownst to them, is altering their files. They go to long on to a server and get caught for cheating.

With the proposal of a global ban, this naive person won't get a second chance OR has to go through months of trying to clear his name. However, we know that his name will never really be cleared as I'm sure he will still be listed on someone's "watch" list.

So let me equate this to an example that is likely in my own life. I am an admin at a gaming site. Someone comes along and posts a link here. It is my duty to check out said links and programs. In the case of a "tool" that is for MP play, I would then need to log onto a server..... Hmmm, I'm just tagged as cheating for doing my job in checking things out. Under the proposal talked about here, I would be put on a global ban list and no longer able to enjoy MP play.

So my point is, which I am reading here to some extent, is that file checking should not be the only means by which to determine a cheater. It should also not be used as the only determinator when a global ban is the punishment, but could be used on the local level until the facts of the situation are ascertained. IMO

[ToW-Angel]

While I do understand where you are coming from, ZJJ... But, naive or not, the person gets banned. They can chalk it up to a lesson learned still... "Don't download something if you don't know what it does."

I am in agreement with Rugg on this one. PunkBuster doesn't give people second chances, and other anti-cheat organizations don't either. Why should I give someone a chance to cheat?

[ruggbutt]

However, what about those that are naive and really do not know that they are using a cheat that they got from a link where someone says "this is cool, try it"? So this naive person downloads this file, that unbeknownst to them, is altering their files. They go to long on to a server and get caught for cheating.

I love how you took the route that you were looking out for the naive guy. Seriously! There's nothing wrong with erring on the side of the innocent. It's also clear that you've never used a cheat nor are aware of how they work. Which is a good thing BTW! When you install a cheat it's not always running when the game is. You "toggle on/off" the cheat using hotkeys, for example F1 or F5. So there is no naive person who d/l's a hack from a site where someone jus said "this is cool". They brag about how you'll "pwn" people on the server, or how funny it is how frustrated the players being hacked are.

However, we know that his name will never really be cleared as I'm sure he will still be listed on someone's "watch" list.

Which is why I'm against global bans. As FlimFlam stated I was mainly talking about the Punksbusted list. And the big problem with a list like that is the people involved in Punksbusted themselves. When Witness was fuxored over you couldn't speak to them rationally in an open forum. In PM's they would call you names and it was even less amenable to discuss the matter at hand. So that's why I have a problem with that particular group. They refused to discuss anything about the Wit incident, period. Even when the MD5 tool was released as a beta and Tony Ray requested that they test it, cuz it wasn't finished. And mind you, I don't like Witness much as a person but I did make myself a pain in the backside to them there because what they were doing was wrong. They have no defense for their actions. They buy into the whole PB is right and is never wrong tripe.

Hmmm, I'm just tagged as cheating for doing my job in checking things out. Under the proposal talked about here, I would be put on a global ban list and no longer able to enjoy MP play.

Yep, that's true. A good rule of thumb is to contact someone you know and check the program on a locked server. Of course accidents can happen but if we follow the close minded track that the Punksbusted crew was on, you'd be SOL. And although I know you're a straight up person and I respect you others may not. I've caught alot of real cheaters, and I can't tell you how many times they've told me they were just testing it out, to see what they're up against. So if it was my server, you'd be banned because that's our stance. Zero tolerance.

So my point is, which I am reading here to some extent, is that file checking should not be the only means by which to determine a cheater. It should also not be used as the only determinator when a global ban is the punishment, but could be used on the local level until the facts of the situation are ascertained.

That's my stand on it. But unfortunately publishers don't care about server admins nor about cheating. It's not just GRIN, it's UBISoft in general. There's not enough financial return to include replays. And replays have always told more of a story than file checking and screenshots. As long as there's the illusion that something is being done with cheating then that's good enuf..........for the publishers.

Unfortunately, in many of the games out there all you have is file checking and screenies. So either the community that sets up a coalition to battle cheaters realizes that they have flawed tools and acommodates that into their decisions, or people who really weren't cheating get dumped on.

[aussiereg]

Forget it... I quit.

Well !! i never thought i would see it, thats the best post u have made in this subject..

I was begining to think that it would make no difference what anyone else would post in responce to your hard line would have any merrit,and i was just thinking...man you need to get a life, LOL..

I have not read past this post, but i somehow dont think you will ever agree to disagree, and just get on with the object of the whole thing, and that is to play the game, ban whoever you like from your own server, and leave others to do it their way, i dont use the anti cheat, but if i see someone doing something over the top or stupid, OUT they go, end of story...

I'm not going to get baited by this... But, you really should read my other posts. Otherwise, you will not understand what I'm getting at. FlimFlam explained it a lot more.

And you took what I said entirely out of context.

I know you have not got my point, so here it is

I don't join all but a very few servers, i only run my own, and will do as i see fit on my own server, i also have altered files, you dont like it stay out !!! , plain enough for you

Oh, and i don't run any rubbish end for the game types either, its coop only for me, i don't have to feed the need to prove anything to anyone, you see i've grown past the mine is better that yours pi.sing contest stage in life

[MVTalon]

I have to jump in here on the side of no universal Ban . Unless we have a system that is 100% effective it can't be done.Where my opinion strays from the norm is my belief that it is not now nor has it ever been UBI/GRINS responsibility to police this community. So...If the GR:AW multiplayer community is as small as many of you maintain then Grin fixing whats wrong with the present system that is causing the crashs and comunication between server admins and the use of local bans at the discreation of the folks that are footing the bill for the servers should get the job done about as well as its going to.

[ROCO*AFZ*]

Excuse my ignorance up front as I don't have to deal with cheaters since I don't run a game server, but I'm trying to understand the situation here.

Basically, what I am reading is that people are advocating a master ban list where a person is banned from ALL servers if they caught cheating on ONE server. Do I understand this correctly?

If so, this is saying that people are not given the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Personally, I would rather see a master list of people who have been caught cheating that an admin can reference to see if they are potentially habitual cheaters, but the ban is taken at the individual server level if the person is caught there.

Once again, I apologize if I did not understand this correctly.

I fully agree with you ZJJ and here is why. Back in the GR1 days, I downloaded what was advertised as a co-op only mod. It was to enable you to see better at night. (All the anticheats here no which one i was talking about)

I thought oh cool lets see what it does. Worked great in Co-op... unfortunately they didn't say it worked in MP and this is before it was widespread and called a cheat. So here i am playing along on day maps on a MP server, and then a night one comes up... and i'm like...Uh oh. So i closed out of GR1 and tried to remove it. Needless to say i ended up re-installing my whole GR1 to clear it...GRR was i mad.

Here is my point. If there was a global ban, i would be removed from the game forever. Even though i left as soon as i saw what was going on. (when i hit a night map)

That would be like me going to all the top clans and sending them a file with a known hack built in that would just unzip it into there GRAW directory even though it would not be active, saying here is a cool way to track your stats. Install it and see how it records them to an xml after a MP game. All of a sudden... no more top clans because they all have been banned due to my false file.

I guess that is the best explanation i can give against global automated banning.

Edited September 28, 2006 by ROCOAFZ

[FI_FlimFlam]

I don't think there is going to be anything close to a Global ban with the GRIN AC unless GRIN opts to copy PB's stance on it. ANd that would be handled by the developer and out of the hands of the community.

So let's focus on a community ban list and put some realistic boundarys on what it is so people don't get the wrong idea about what it is and it's pervasiveness.

A global ban would keep a player out of any and all GRAW servers or all servers running the default AC. Depends on how GRIN would implement it and it would be controlled by GRIN. The community should not have any control over global bans whatsoever.

Now lets look at a community ban list. What is it? It's a list of banned players by a group of server admins that have agreed to share their ban list. BTW it's already happening on a small scale as I know some admins already are sharing bans.

At issue is how accurate it will be and how wide spread it will be affecting "nieve" cheaters, "accidental" cheaters, and false positives. And will it be a good thing to organize admins to help keep the games a clean as possible for everyone.

To address the concerns, I think a community ban list should only be available to the community admins that are a part of the AC group. Now before you guys scream "elitist" I want to be clear that this is just as much to address the concern about how pervasive a community ban list would end up being. By limiting the list to members it would cut down on the potential of a nieve player being banned from a large percentage of servers on only on the member servers.

Secondly I think the critera on which players could land on the Community Ban list should be very stringent and verifiable. Again this all depends on what Wiking and the guys at GRIN do with the AC. If they do not allow for more than the current game file integrity checks then there really isn't anything that will really be able to land on a Community Ban list and this whole discussion is moot. But it all hangs on what tools we are provided with by GRIN.

@Rugbutt,

Rabid people at any A/C group are not uncommon be it PsB or other. But PsB has some doosies there which has upset me in the past as well - and still get frustated at the "ban 'em for the slightest chance" attitude that occurs there all too often with some. And I (and my team) have been a contributing member at PsB for several years - since before the witness fiasco. And I too have been on the recieving end at PB. Becuase I had the audacity to question the AMBL when it was first release. I was called a cheater and my team was labled a cheating clan by many there because I questioned it. Only one admin/staff member attempted to even engage me in a discussion to attempt to answer my concerns (thanks Orangepeel). So I know and have experienced the feeding frenzy that a community can get into. It's up to the community to police itself and try to keep those fanatical admin in line an reigned in as hard as it is. Because no matter what they are going to be there.

Unfortunately, I think things like what happened to Witness are going to happen even without a shared ban list of any kind. It's all to easy to have someone labled a cheater. Once a program detects it and the player is flagged as cheating, the higher the players profile, the faster it's going to spread in the community, no matter what - ban list or no. The damage done to the reputation is going to happen regardless. It can take alot of time and to overcome that. The only way to prevent it from happening is to not have an AC at all. Which really isn't an option nowadays.

ZJJ,

With PsB, when someone lands on the MBL (their community ban list) they can play again if they obtain a new copy of the game. That's the price they pay for cheating. They aren't prevented from playing forever on PsB servers using the MBL. Some admins will issue local bans for players who they find are cheaters with a new GUID (PB's unique game install identifier that is used in bans). However that is not policy with the PsB community. You get a second chance if you get another copy. Of note some Competitive ladders ban you forever if you cheat no matter what. They constantly check for players who circumvent their bans with new copies of the game and ban each subsequent copy/ID/GUID that a player has inorder to keep them from competiting. That is their community policy however.

That would be a worthwile policy to implement (second chance with new key) - provided the AC uses a CD-key generated hash to ban with. The cheater would get a second chance if they obtain a second copy of the game.

@roco

That is why proper mod support in any game is essential. You should NEVER overwrite default system file and you should never be able to enter a vanilla/std server with a mod enabled. There have been players who have been busted for legit mods. Joint Ops was the poster child of that initially as that NovaLogic didn't have mod support. Players made mods that changes core system file - much like GRAW. There was no difference between a legit skin for the german uniform than a neon glow skin hack that alot of cheaters were using - they changed the same file. You should never ever have to modify stock files in a mod.

Edited September 28, 2006 by FI_FlimFlam