a small problem in MP...

[th33f.]

there is no learning curve. if there is - it is very short. i mean, of course, there is. and it's basically all about knowing the maps, all 5 of them!

the only thing you can do to improve your game beyond that - is learn to move and shoot, or camp. that's it, besides cranking up your FPS and getting even better at moving and shooting. this is what RvS was compared to [GR], only with bigger maps.

any kind of tactical advantage, excuse me, is ###### in GRAW. it does not mean anything. short of a few exceptions, rushing through the map and holding a position does not affect your chances of surviving or getting a kill. when you see someone - you pull the trigger. that's it.

what is wrong with that? i think we've heard enough opinions on it...

my biggest gripe is the lack of skills required to aim. guns, not to mention the GL, are too accurate. actually no, the accuracy is fine, but it never changes. the crosshair bloom means absolutely nothing! why the hell is that, GRIN?

it defeats the purpose of "getting the drop on someone". if you see someone, you can keep moving and take them out, unless you're running, which doesn't really get in the way so much. you can do an instant 180 and score a headshot as soon as someone opens fire on you, as long as you can aim. an expensive GPU helps with that... if you're surprised reading this - play online a few more weeks.

is GRIN allowed to discuss this? have you guys just left bullet spread controls off? maybe i'm just used to GR, but it was great! it took on average a year to become a real "ghost", as cheesy as it may sound. of course, the variety of maps contributed to that, but handling a weapon in general was a lot more complex than it is in GRAW. i agree with whoever said that this isn't a thinking man's shooter anymore...

the thing is, it's not a very big problem, if you're willing to deal with it. i somewhat glanced at the xml's and it looks like all the controls fit onto a page or two. i'm sure creating a mod with the old GR style bullet spread behavior would be a matter of a few days, even for me, but we cannot afford to split the almost non-existant MP community into groups now! even if people like it, which might take a while beacuse it'll be harder to play, a lot will play the original still. we need this to be official.

what i would do is have the ret close just a tad faster after a full stop of the character, and tie the bullet spread directly to the opening the crosshairs draw in front of you. i could try doing some tweaks, but i'm sure i'll need help deciphering the values. i won't even look at it, unless GRIN is willing to work with the community on this...

EDIT: forgot to mention another strong point...

i won't claim i'm the best shooter out there, but i do ok, and the better i do the more bored i get.

Edited July 18, 2006 by th33f.

[zulater]

when using iron sights or a red dot/scope there should be no spread (outside of the given MOA of your weapon)

and given that a trained soldier will never fire his weapon from the hip there really shouldn't be a 'spread' like [GR].

now i will agree that the kick of the weapons feels horribly akward and when shooting with the ret it does not move enough.

though right now it's almost too much, i'm in favor of more recoil to make the game more balanced. it is too easy to point and shoot.

[th33f.]

yes, the whole post is regarding shooting from the hip, sorry if i forgot to mention it, heh.

[Cangaroo.TNT]

IMO bullet spread is tricky. In BF2, for example, I think it is poorly coded. Prone, scope up, single shot, the bullet rarely seems to hit where you're aming. At least the first shot should be (deadly) accurate. In anything but CQB situations (which BF2 is anything but) you almost need to be on single shot. So many people complained about the inaccuracy of the SAW & PKM that they improved it with a patch, only to make it TOO accurate (ne1 see the sniping video with the PKM?) and made a final adjustment with yet another patch.

So, some spread is a nice effect, as long as it doesn't get rediculous.

[th33f.]

hopefully, the new behavior will reincarnate semi-auto, as it'll help keep the ret tight.

it's basically 'point and shoot' versus 'point, wait, and shoot'. cast your vote people, and something from the dev team on this issue would be very nice...

Edited July 18, 2006 by th33f.

[SillyHalfMexican]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25BN2oH1ZTQ

That the reticule spread you were talking about? WARNING: Music does have some cusses in it, not work safe.

I for one never did like the [GR] spread, and how slow it took you to recover from anything.

(No flame either please)

I liked GR2's reticule spread and recovery time. It was a lot more feasible.

I think the only problem with GR3's reticule spread, is that they are all CQB battles, so it doesn't take much to just spam and get a kill. I've done it plenty of times my self. But when there isn't a CQB match, and it's a longer range battle, the reticule spam doesn't do much for anything. I've tried it plenty of times as well, and I have been shot down.

So I think once we get less urban maps and more LONG range maps, we'll be good.

And, question, do the bullets lose impact over distance, or lose trajectory? Like say, if we got a really long range map... Would the bullets lose effectiveness and accuracy if you shot from base A to base B, and the distance is... oh let's say 1500 yards or so?

If it doesn't, then that's ground for some spam if we get long range maps. Everyone popping everyone in the head pretty easily as if they were 1 foot away.

Edited July 18, 2006 by SillyHalfMexican

[zulater]

no trajectory or loss of stopping power

the point to this thread is that there's got to be a better ballance between rounding a corner and being able to spray and get easy kills. it's too easy to get kills 'shooting from the hip' it should be much harder to get any kill or any consistancy of shot placement unless you are scoped in/using iron sights/red dot.

[SillyHalfMexican]

Yes, and he meant the reticule spread as well. So I added on to that.

But thanks for the answer.

[th33f.]

yea, GR2 had it as well, though i've never played it.

as for longer range bullet spamming, it works, but is very hard to perform coerrectly, since the reticle sprites are next to invisible when you hold down the trigger. prior to 1.20, when most servers ignored the anti-cheat feature, i was using a modded xml file responsible for the ret color. well, when i had it bright red, spamming was all i did, regardless of the range. now i just can't align it to a far away target, it's too washed out, not to mention that a green interface doesn't work very well on top of the NVG effects.

right now, the deciding aspect of your gameplay is how well you judge the distance to a target and whether you have to time to aim through the scope. if you feel you're about to be sprayed at - you just strafe and spray back. you'll come out a winner most of the time, though not perfectly healthy.

this kind of "tactical" gameplay has been referred to by many as, and i quote: "dumb", "run'n'gun", "for kids" and so on, you get the point. something needs to be done, because i don't think the game title contains "CS" anywhere... i think i've seen people type "boring" in chat more than anything else.

[MagicK]

I agree that firing from the hip in this game is a way too accurate. There needs to be a little more bullet spread and some recoil effects.

With that being said.. I want to make it clear that I think the accuracy/recoil while being "scoped" in as of now shouldn't be changed.. just outside of being scoped.

On a side note: Grenade launchers need to die.

[Judge_Recluse]

The game has become alittle run and gun, and I think we have all been trying to figure a way out to slow it down. Including the penalty when being hit, Penalty when getting tired, Limiting the spawns and so on.

But I think this is one of the bigger culprits in the whole mess. Firing from the hip would seem to be a more stable way to shoot, just not as accurate, but at close range should be effective, as the range of the target gets further away, the spread should be drastically increased.

As it is right now, shooting from the hip is more effective than shooting with the sights, up to a certain distance that is.

At 50 meters I should not be able to throw 3 rounds in a persons body in a split second, it should take me alot longer.

It was put perfect in an earlier post by th33f, "the deciding aspect of your gameplay is how well you judge the distance to a target and whether you have to time to aim through the scope. if you feel you're about to be sprayed at - you just strafe and spray back. you'll come out a winner most of the time, though not perfectly healthy."

I hope this looked at further in the future, but to be honest I can wait till everything else is fixed.

[th33f.]

I agree that firing from the hip in this game is a way too accurate. There needs to be a little more bullet spread and some recoil effects.

With that being said.. I want to make it clear that I think the accuracy/recoil while being "scoped" in as of now shouldn't be changed.. just outside of being scoped.

On a side note: Grenade launchers need to die.

take it from a guy with a 7:1 kill to death ration on average... enough said.

some kind of acknowledgement of this dicussion is the first step, GRIN. should some of the modders offer you a couple of versions of how we want it, or you got it? juat say the word...

[RAbbi_74]

^^^ The constructive attitude that many wish to see more of. Can't beat that...

[CkZWarlord]

[OFF TOPIC]

Love picture man... CkZ = Combat KlownZ

[/OFF TOPIC]

I agree that the reticule spread needs some work, it does indeed seem that the ret and bullet spread have nothing in common. Although I like realism, but there is a limit of how much realism should be in a game.

[SillyHalfMexican]

Blame real life on that one!

[CkZWarlord]

I just feel that a game should stay just that... a game.

[RAbbi_74]

Firing from the hip would seem to be a more stable way to shoot, just not as accurate, but at close range should be effective, as the range of the target gets further away, the spread should be drastically increased.

At 50 meters I should not be able to throw 3 rounds in a persons body in a split second, it should take me alot longer.

Good point. You'll notice on the weapon accessories that equipping a rifle with a forward grip INCREASES the stability, but DECREASES the overall accuracy. Hence, it means you're less likely to hit your intended target, but the weapon will not 'jump' as much when firing, especially on BURST or AUTOMATIC. Y'all already knew that.

What those handles are good for is the 'shoot-from-the-hip' kinda player. Isn't as concerned with absolute accuracy as with spraying an intended target down with bullets. More the CQB type. Mid- and long-range shooters should avoid the grip. Sights work just fine.

Getting the engine in GRAW to understand ballistics wold be tough, I'm sure. I'm reminded of how [GR] (dead horse, I know) did so. I read an interview with a certain AlphaSquad modder (I think) who talked about the [GR] damage model. Apparently, after the game determined a collision for a round, it performed a SECOND collision check, whether the round had hit a character or a wall. It seemed to be random in direction, but FROM that target a second trajectory was drawn and checked for collision. At least, that's my understanding. Hence, it was possible that a single round could take down TWO targets. And I think we've ALL done that in [GR]. THAT was the beginning of ballistics, which is also closely related to PHYSICS (physX?). I haven't noticed if the same can be said of GRAW, but from there we can start to envision a ballistics MODEL of sorts for rounds fired downrange.

Let's say that the game tracks each round fired for range travelled. At intervals of, say 75 meters, a standard deviation range is applied (.2-.35MOA) to a random deviation trajectory, limited only to being 4 to 8 o'clock in the firer's line of sight. At the next 75-meter interval the same deviation trajectory is again applied at the previous MOA plus .05. And so on. The range of deviation numbers would inevitably vary with the type of weapon (M9 deviation would be vastly greater than M99, for instance, defining the limits of the range).

Also, there are 'soft' collision items in the game that could and should affect trajectories and impact forces. Bushes, glass, etc. Last night I dropped a fellow GRAW player THROUGH three different car windows (both from sides and the windshield) at about 60 meters with a M8 Carbine. Not sure if it's applied in game, but those first few rounds colliding with the unbroken (and for a split second thereafter, BREAKING) glass most likely would never have found their targets IRL. A system of physics computations is already in place in the game. [GR], of course, almost always allowed you the hit THROUGH the glass (M02-Farm, the farm house in the middle, upstairs window sniper). It's a five year old game. SOFT collision items should be given some more consideration in trajectories. Perhaps even added to the list of DESTRUCTIBLE items on the map. The 100th round out of a Mk48 is NOT still going to have to collide with that palm frond, after all, as the last 99 before it likely obliterated the whole stinking TREE. But those first couple rounds WILL be affected by soft items. It was one of the big complaints when the M16 replaced the M1 (5.56mm vs 7.62mm, respectively) that the weapon wasn't necessarily very good in the woods. Didn't take much to deflect a round, whereas the 7.62mm rounds were a little more effective at hitting targets through dense foliage.

DANG, I meant for this to be a short reply. Sorry...

[zulater]

Good point. You'll notice on the weapon accessories that equipping a rifle with a forward grip INCREASES the stability, but DECREASES the overall accuracy. Hence, it means you're less likely to hit your intended target, but the weapon will not 'jump' as much when firing, especially on BURST or AUTOMATIC. Y'all already knew that.

What those handles are good for is the 'shoot-from-the-hip' kinda player. Isn't as concerned with absolute accuracy as with spraying an intended target down with bullets. More the CQB type. Mid- and long-range shooters should avoid the grip. Sights work just fine.

which is absolutely asinine. a front grip will not decrease your accuracy.

These are GHOSTS (eliete troops) not terrorists or hollywood actors. they do not 'shoot from the hip' and they ARE overly concerned with accuracy and precision.

we use 'shoot from the hip' to describe the shooting without looking down the sights which is really a bad description. the weapon is not going to be fired without the soldier looking down the sights. it's just done so you can see more since you don't have your perefireal (spelling horrendous sry) vision.

we just want it to be harder to hit anything consistantly when you are not looking through the iron sights or scope/redot.

[RAbbi_74]

Good point. You'll notice on the weapon accessories that equipping a rifle with a forward grip INCREASES the stability, but DECREASES the overall accuracy. Hence, it means you're less likely to hit your intended target, but the weapon will not 'jump' as much when firing, especially on BURST or AUTOMATIC. Y'all already knew that.

What those handles are good for is the 'shoot-from-the-hip' kinda player. Isn't as concerned with absolute accuracy as with spraying an intended target down with bullets. More the CQB type. Mid- and long-range shooters should avoid the grip. Sights work just fine.

which is absolutely asinine. a front grip will not decrease your accuracy.

These are GHOSTS (eliete troops) not terrorists or hollywood actors. they do not 'shoot from the hip' and they ARE overly concerned with accuracy and precision.

we use 'shoot from the hip' to describe the shooting without looking down the sights which is really a bad description. the weapon is not going to be fired without the soldier looking down the sights. it's just done so you can see more since you don't have your perefireal (spelling horrendous sry) vision.

we just want it to be harder to hit anything consistantly when you are not looking through the iron sights or scope/redot.

Spend 15 years in the US Army, then call me back. Really. I dare you...

AGAIN, we're not talking about REAL people playing this game. IF you take the time to let out a deep breath, hold it a second, line up your front and rear sights, maintain that perfect cheek-to-stock contact, blahblahblah while the guy who just popped out of that door five feet from you is firing on you, he can be firing from his left heel for all it matters. YOU ARE TOAST. Hip, shoulder, buttocks... it matters not what you CALL it. And YES, it IS a bit less accurate firing a weapon with an AFTERMARKET VERTICAL grip installed. Not that I of all people might have tried that before, y'know, on the Army's dime. It isn't there to make the weapon more accurate when firing on a target at 200+ meters. It's there for almost exactly what it gives you in GRAW. THAT is why the folks from UBI's Xbox360 dev team got to go face-to-face witht he folks who are developing the weapons that those REAL ELITE personnel will be using in the near future.

But I get what you're saying. And you're right. These guys are NOT some backwoods terrorists, and they're not Rambo movie extras. And while some playes may think they're Rambo in the game, most of the time folks in MP are every bit as cautious and measured in their actions as the real soldiers of the world's various professional armies are.

One last note: This idea of firing without necessarily applying the slow, cautious 4 fundamentals of rifle marksmanship IS BEING TRAINED TO EVERY LAST SOLDIER IN THE US ARMY! Wonder who developed it? I don't, I already know...

Thanks for the opinion, though. No hard feelings.