have you got a back-up plan?

[ToW-Angel]

That's why in the server screen you have your web address so that player who are joining can read that information.

If they are having a problem with a particular player, then let them visit the forums and complain.

[th33f.]

That's why in the server screen you have your web address so that player who are joining can read that information.

If they are having a problem with a particular player, then let them visit the forums and complain.

exactly. having to spend a few hours i've set aside for gaming, to dig up your site, register, and start explaining myself, is not my idea of fun at all. i'd rather have the TK autokick feature kick the TK'ers automatically, let GRIN figure out what they want to do about cheaters, and totally ignore some jackass making disturbing comments, since i'm 25, and playing a game that's all about violence, blood and murder. besides, it warns about foul language on the box.

[ToW-Angel]

Don't like the idea, then don't visit any other servers out there. Pretty simple.

Edited July 17, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[th33f.]

i'm all for it, if there's a way to prove a cheater first.

how long before you or one of your clanmates snaps and starts practicing his index finger on players that are substantially better? i can already hear it on comms...

- this guy is doing something fishy...

- yeah, probably a hack...

- ban 'em.

- ban 'em.

click.

[RAbbi_74]

i'm all for it, if there's a way to prove a cheater first.

how long before you or one of your clanmates snaps and starts practicing his index finger on players that are substantially better? i can already hear it on comms...

- this guy is doing something fishy...

- yeah, probably a hack...

- ban 'em.

- ban 'em.

click.

MUST have a totally objective standard. Anything that man CAN corrupt or pervert, man WILL corrupt and pervert. It's a time-proven fact of human nature. Give someone the means to kick/ban like that, and he eventually WILL.

All for an admin kick, but no ban. NO ONE WHO PLAYS VIDEO GAMES is that responsible. Not even little ol' me...

[ToW-Angel]

i'm all for it, if there's a way to prove a cheater first.

how long before you or one of your clanmates snaps and starts practicing his index finger on players that are substantially better? i can already hear it on comms...

- this guy is doing something fishy...

- yeah, probably a hack...

- ban 'em.

- ban 'em.

click.

I'm all for being able to ban smacktards who are causing problems in a server that I either own or rent with my money. I shouldn't have to put up with that either.

If someone is doing that on your squad, then they shouldn't be a server admin.

I'd rather ban someone, and then have them come ask me why, then not to have any control over it at all.

I have the right to ban anyone on my server whether they are cheating, smack talking, back talking, abusive or otherwise. Otherwise, you have a server full of miscreants causing havoc, and the good players/people will never visit because you lack following through on your server rules.

We have server rules for our servers, regardles of the game. You can't follow rules, you will get kicked first, and if it continues you get banned.

Let the gurus figure out who is actually cheating and let the A/C handle it, unless you actually do catch someone who is cheating. I have personally caught someone cheating in my server once. I banned them instantly.

So, having the ability to ban someone is two-fold... Keeping the smacktards out my server, and if I catch someone cheating, I can ban them instantly.

Edited July 17, 2006 by ToW-Angel

[th33f.]

what was i thinking carrying on a meaningful conversation with a woman!

[FI_FlimFlam]

yea, surprisingly enough i _have_ been an admin to a server, that my squad and i paid for, as well as a server awarded to us for winning a TCZ tourney a few years back. i know exactly how the local bans work. i also happen to be up to date on the way the so-called local ban lists are shared between server admins, and eventually all of the local banlists are merged into a list that every decent server uses. so there is a very fine line between being banned from a single server and not being able to play online, especially for those with a permanent network IP. given the tightness of this here community, i know for a fact this will occur to innocent players, mostly to those who could aim a rifle...

i'm sure the devs already _have_ considered including the ban feature prior to the release and in the following patches, and it looks like they're in a silent agreement with me. i do hope you get your button though, just make sure you're up 24/7 to admin your precious servers and not let a single cheater/TK'er/smacktard slip through the hands of justice. better yet, password your server and have your peace of mind.

You've lost me th33f. First you are against being able to ban griefers and then you say if we get bans we'll have to spend more time monitoring our servers? I think it's actually the opposite. Once you remove the griefers from your server it actually makes it easier to not worry about them and have to spend all my free time monitoring my server(s). I guess it's a matter of opinion and I see it completely opposite of you.

Addittionally, I won't share my local ban lists nor would I accept another admins because they aren't my teams or do I know if they will follow my teams rules and guidlines for conduct in my server.

I feel not having bans and maintainable bans only hinders an admin's ability to run the server how they like it. It reduces the administrative tools and options available. If you don't wish to use bans, nothing would prevent you from doing just that. Not using bans at all. If you find it works for your I'm quite happy that you really have not problem with non-tking griefers.

If GRIN really is in agreement with you, then I think they are probably not in line with 99% of the community on this singular aspect of server administration. Virtually all server admins recognize the necessity for at least some way to permanently block specific people from their servers.

exactly. having to spend a few hours i've set aside for gaming, to dig up your site, register, and start explaining myself, is not my idea of fun at all. i'd rather have the TK autokick feature kick the TK'ers automatically, let GRIN figure out what they want to do about cheaters, and totally ignore some jackass making disturbing comments, since i'm 25, and playing a game that's all about violence, blood and murder. besides, it warns about foul language on the box.

That still doesn't solve the problem of the griefer that has decided to drive players from your server - especially when you or one of your team's admins isn't present. Like people who intentionally gimp/injure others, or gives your teams position away, or constantly spams chat, or any of a hundred deliberately annoying things to irritate/annoy and drive people out of your server when you aren't there. If you banned them then people who are enjoying your server won't have to deal with them and can continue to enjoy the game. And you can go back to playing the game rather than wasting more time "adminning".

[th33f.]

yea, surprisingly enough i _have_ been an admin to a server, that my squad and i paid for, as well as a server awarded to us for winning a TCZ tourney a few years back. i know exactly how the local bans work. i also happen to be up to date on the way the so-called local ban lists are shared between server admins, and eventually all of the local banlists are merged into a list that every decent server uses. so there is a very fine line between being banned from a single server and not being able to play online, especially for those with a permanent network IP. given the tightness of this here community, i know for a fact this will occur to innocent players, mostly to those who could aim a rifle...

i'm sure the devs already _have_ considered including the ban feature prior to the release and in the following patches, and it looks like they're in a silent agreement with me. i do hope you get your button though, just make sure you're up 24/7 to admin your precious servers and not let a single cheater/TK'er/smacktard slip through the hands of justice. better yet, password your server and have your peace of mind.

You've lost me th33f. First you are against being able to ban griefers and then you say if we get bans we'll have to spend more time monitoring our servers? I think it's actually the opposite. Once you remove the griefers from your server it actually makes it easier to not worry about them and have to spend all my free time monitoring my server(s). I guess it's a matter of opinion and I see it completely opposite of you.

Addittionally, I won't share my local ban lists nor would I accept another admins because they aren't my teams or do I know if they will follow my teams rules and guidlines for conduct in my server.

I feel not having bans and maintainable bans only hinders an admin's ability to run the server how they like it. It reduces the administrative tools and options available. If you don't wish to use bans, nothing would prevent you from doing just that. Not using bans at all. If you find it works for your I'm quite happy that you really have not problem with non-tking griefers.

If GRIN really is in agreement with you, then I think they are probably not in line with 99% of the community on this singular aspect of server administration. Virtually all server admins recognize the necessity for at least some way to permanently block specific people from their servers.

exactly. having to spend a few hours i've set aside for gaming, to dig up your site, register, and start explaining myself, is not my idea of fun at all. i'd rather have the TK autokick feature kick the TK'ers automatically, let GRIN figure out what they want to do about cheaters, and totally ignore some jackass making disturbing comments, since i'm 25, and playing a game that's all about violence, blood and murder. besides, it warns about foul language on the box.

That still doesn't solve the problem of the griefer that has decided to drive players from your server - especially when you or one of your team's admins isn't present. Like people who intentionally gimp/injure others, or gives your teams position away, or constantly spams chat, or any of a hundred deliberately annoying things to irritate/annoy and drive people out of your server when you aren't there. If you banned them then people who are enjoying your server won't have to deal with them and can continue to enjoy the game. And you can go back to playing the game rather than wasting more time "adminning".

you'll never understand my reasoning. at least i hope it won't come to that for you...

[FI_FlimFlam]

you'll never understand my reasoning. at least i hope it won't come to that for you...

Perhaps I won't, but then my adminning servers for over 8 years and through 6 games have hasn't exactly shown me the uselessnes of bans. Actually just the opposite. I've been playing MP games for some time and have watched the upswell of players and proliferation of broadband from dial up. One particular thing is very evident over that time is that as MP gaming has become more popular and accessible, the number of people who feel they can ruin some else's fun has only increased dramatically. And with the determined one's banning them is the only way to get some respite.

Edited July 18, 2006 by FI_FlimFlam

[ToW-Angel]

Like I said... I'd rather ban someone, have them ask me why than not to have any control over it at all.

Local Bans are good to have, because it gives you the power to not let someone in, especially after they've made a spectical out of themselves. But, this is a two-edged sword... Abusing it can lead to more problems than solves, which will give that person and/or squad a very bad name and no one will want to play on their server.

Global A/C bans are an absolute must. But, what do you do if you ban someone for actually being a cheater without proof? It's difficult. Still... I'd rather have the control to ban that person than to let them continue playing my server on my dime.

A server admin should know how to conduct themselves... If they don't, then they truly don't need to be a server admin. Having too many people as a server admin can be a good and bad thing at the same time. Good in the way that there is always someone around, bad if all them do nothing at all.

Bans themselves give the server admin power over the server, without it there is no power. Kicks don't necessarily work everytime and they come right back in to cause more havoc if they choose too... Keeping them out of the server is the only choice that is left, so you have to BAN them.

Lack of server commands/controls, then what good is having a server when you can't do something about it? It's your money, your dime and you have no control over it.

You pay for a car, it's your choice to do the speed limit or go over the speed limit and get caught. The police officer in this case is the 'ban'. He controls whether or not you get a ticket. If he writes you a warning to slow down, that's a 'kick'. If you get a ticket, get fined and have to go to court, that's a 'ban'.

[th33f.]

you'll never understand my reasoning. at least i hope it won't come to that for you...

Perhaps I won't, but then my adminning servers for over 8 years and through 6 games have hasn't exactly shown me the uselessnes of bans. Actually just the opposite. I've been playing MP games for some time and have watched the upswell of players and proliferation of broadband from dial up. One particular thing is very evident over that time is that as MP gaming has become more popular and accessible, the number of people who feel they can ruin some else's fun has only increased dramatically. And with the determined one's banning them is the only way to get some respite.

agreed. nevertheless, i'm sure the games you admined were complete, unlike the case in point. without a _real_ way to identify cheaters, a ban button is a dangerous attribute. you might not, but other admins will undoubtedly disregard common sense and point their finger at anyone half-decent at the game. after that it's gonna be your word against theirs, and guess who's always right?

let GRIN implement something as miserable as random screenshots sent to the server, and i'll gladly welcome the ban feature. i guess it's pointless continuing to defend my point of view without actually sharing my late GR experience with you. long story short, without ever having even seeing a working hack with my own eyes, i managed to get banned from 90% of GR servers on the eye, simply by coming out on top of the stats list a few games in a row. and i'm not the only one to have experienced such neglect, though in most cases the truth would prevail, thanks to replays.

[FI_FlimFlam]

agreed. nevertheless, i'm sure the games you admined were complete, unlike the case in point. without a _real_ way to identify cheaters, a ban button is a dangerous attribute. you might not, but other admins will undoubtedly disregard common sense and point their finger at anyone half-decent at the game. after that it's gonna be your word against theirs, and guess who's always right?

let GRIN implement something as miserable as random screenshots sent to the server, and i'll gladly welcome the ban feature. i guess it's pointless continuing to defend my point of view without actually sharing my late GR experience with you. long story short, without ever having even seeing a working hack with my own eyes, i managed to get banned from 90% of GR servers on the eye, simply by coming out on top of the stats list a few games in a row. and i'm not the only one to have experienced such neglect, though in most cases the truth would prevail, thanks to replays.

I agree with you about the potential of banning innocent players. That is my single greatest concern with this whole process. I think this can work if people like you and myself who are concentious enough provide input. There are alot of players who are trigger happy with the the bans and when they get in an AC community are more likely to vote yes if there is a chance someone is cheating rather than when there absolutely no doubt the person is cheating. I call it "ban fever". It must be tempered. This is also why I'm mostly against replays and fraps being used as evidence as I don't agree with alot of people that they can 100% be used as proof most of the time. Sure they can show things like the most blanant of cheats like a god mode. But more often than not they are still questionable and therefore unreliable for the most part.

I think with this whole process of a community of server admins, alot of this can be addressed and tempered. It is going to happen, but the question remains just how impartial will it be. I will do what I can to influence it positively. I hope you will continue to post and contirbute your opinions and concerns so that the rest of us can see and learn from your experiences. And hopefully whatever comes of this community of admins is something good.

Edited July 18, 2006 by FI_FlimFlam

[ToW-Angel]

agreed. nevertheless, i'm sure the games you admined were complete, unlike the case in point. without a _real_ way to identify cheaters, a ban button is a dangerous attribute. you might not, but other admins will undoubtedly disregard common sense and point their finger at anyone half-decent at the game. after that it's gonna be your word against theirs, and guess who's always right?

let GRIN implement something as miserable as random screenshots sent to the server, and i'll gladly welcome the ban feature. i guess it's pointless continuing to defend my point of view without actually sharing my late GR experience with you. long story short, without ever having even seeing a working hack with my own eyes, i managed to get banned from 90% of GR servers on the eye, simply by coming out on top of the stats list a few games in a row. and i'm not the only one to have experienced such neglect, though in most cases the truth would prevail, thanks to replays.

I agree with you about the potential of banning innocent players. That is my single greatest concern with this whole process. I think this can work if people like you and myself who are concentious enough provide input. There are alot of players who are trigger happy with the the bans and when they get in an AC community are more likely to vote yes if there is a chance someone is cheating rather than when there absolutely no doubt the person is cheating. I call it "ban fever". It must be tempered. This is also why I'm mostly against replays and fraps being used as evidence as I don't agree with alot of people that they can 100% be used as proof most of the time. Sure they can show things like the most blanant of cheats like a god mode. But more often than not they are still questionable and therefore unreliable for the most part.

I think with this whole process of a community of server admins, alot of this can be addressed and tempered. It is going to happen, but the question remains just how impartial will it be. I will do what I can to influence it positively. I hope you will continue to post and contirbute your opinions and concerns so that the rest of us can see and learn from experiences. And hopefully whatever comes of this community of admins is something good.

Maybe there can be a point system?

Scale 1 to 3 or 1 to 5... Everyone starts off with 1 point, means that the player hasn't caused any problems, then at 2, they get kicked. If they come back in within 24 hours, and they continue to be a pest, you lick a button and it gives the 3rd point and they are banned.

Hate to say it, but that's a considerable amount of coding to be able to do it that way. It can be done though, although I'm not sure I'd like to do that or not.

Good players won't get kicked, naughty players get a kick, truly bad player get banned by the server admin... Still 3 levels and it's at the descretion of the server admin.

Theef, I totally understand where you are coming from, and sometimes good players/people get banned. I however disagree with server ban lists being shared. Some squad/clans may do that, but that is up to them. On my server, I will not share it, because what happens on my server with an individual will not necessarily be the case in another.

[th33f.]

agreed. nevertheless, i'm sure the games you admined were complete, unlike the case in point. without a _real_ way to identify cheaters, a ban button is a dangerous attribute. you might not, but other admins will undoubtedly disregard common sense and point their finger at anyone half-decent at the game. after that it's gonna be your word against theirs, and guess who's always right?

let GRIN implement something as miserable as random screenshots sent to the server, and i'll gladly welcome the ban feature. i guess it's pointless continuing to defend my point of view without actually sharing my late GR experience with you. long story short, without ever having even seeing a working hack with my own eyes, i managed to get banned from 90% of GR servers on the eye, simply by coming out on top of the stats list a few games in a row. and i'm not the only one to have experienced such neglect, though in most cases the truth would prevail, thanks to replays.

I agree with you about the potential of banning innocent players. That is my single greatest concern with this whole process. I think this can work if people like you and myself who are concentious enough provide input. There are alot of players who are trigger happy with the the bans and when they get in an AC community are more likely to vote yes if there is a chance someone is cheating rather than when there absolutely no doubt the person is cheating. I call it "ban fever". It must be tempered. This is also why I'm mostly against replays and fraps being used as evidence as I don't agree with alot of people that they can 100% be used as proof most of the time. Sure they can show things like the most blanant of cheats like a god mode. But more often than not they are still questionable and therefore unreliable for the most part.

I think with this whole process of a community of server admins, alot of this can be addressed and tempered. It is going to happen, but the question remains just how impartial will it be. I will do what I can to influence it positively. I hope you will continue to post and contirbute your opinions and concerns so that the rest of us can see and learn from your experiences. And hopefully whatever comes of this community of admins is something good.

great post, i'm glad we could find some common ground. i have a feeling that once the MP aspect of the game picks up, you and me will really have no control of things.

Angel... always with a new initiative. keep it up!

[FI_FlimFlam]

great post, i'm glad we could find some common ground. i have a feeling that once the MP aspect of the game picks up, you and me will really have no control of things.

Angel... always with a new initiative. keep it up!

Awww look what you've gone and done.... I'm all teary now.... *snif *snif

[th33f.]

great post, i'm glad we could find some common ground. i have a feeling that once the MP aspect of the game picks up, you and me will really have no control of things.

Angel... always with a new initiative. keep it up!

Awww look what you've gone and done.... I'm all teary now.... *snif *snif

yea, i'm tired. i'll try to be more assinine tomorrow. g'night.

[FI_FlimFlam]

great post, i'm glad we could find some common ground. i have a feeling that once the MP aspect of the game picks up, you and me will really have no control of things.

Angel... always with a new initiative. keep it up!

Awww look what you've gone and done.... I'm all teary now.... *snif *snif

yea, i'm tired. i'll try to be more assinine tomorrow. g'night.

LOL - you're right tho who knows what will happen when the MP admin tools hit. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Cheers.

[ToW-Angel]

I guess it's a wait and see on the tools... Regardless of the tools, we do have at least 2 tools already... Good people who know how to spot it and FRAPS.

[RAbbi_74]

I guess it's a wait and see on the tools... Regardless of the tools, we do have at least 2 tools already... Good people who know how to spot it and FRAPS.

Given a means of barring someone from entering a server, that might be the BEST solution available.

I'd say THIS to GRiN on the A/C subject:

If you can come up with something that Th33f and ToW_Angel can agree on, then-

1.) The good Lord has spoken through your acts, and you will be beatified someday.

2.) You've scored a winner there, and should copyright the living hell out of it immediately.

Beyond that, I'm fairly dumb on A/C, and just wish there wasn't a need for it in the first place...

[Stormin]

i'm all for it, if there's a way to prove a cheater first.

how long before you or one of your clanmates snaps and starts practicing his index finger on players that are substantially better? i can already hear it on comms...

- this guy is doing something fishy...

- yeah, probably a hack...

- ban 'em.

- ban 'em.

click.

I'm all for being able to ban smacktards who are causing problems in a server that I either own or rent with my money. I shouldn't have to put up with that either.

If someone is doing that on your squad, then they shouldn't be a server admin.

I'd rather ban someone, and then have them come ask me why, then not to have any control over it at all.

I have the right to ban anyone on my server whether they are cheating, smack talking, back talking, abusive or otherwise. Otherwise, you have a server full of miscreants causing havoc, and the good players/people will never visit because you lack following through on your server rules.

We have server rules for our servers, regardles of the game. You can't follow rules, you will get kicked first, and if it continues you get banned.

Let the gurus figure out who is actually cheating and let the A/C handle it, unless you actually do catch someone who is cheating. I have personally caught someone cheating in my server once. I banned them instantly.

So, having the ability to ban someone is two-fold... Keeping the smacktards out my server, and if I catch someone cheating, I can ban them instantly.

I couldn't agree more... I play another shooter game in a clan that I currently am a member of... The owner has all the right in the world to ban anyone they see fit... And I've seen them do it and rightly so too... This all happened before the owner p/w the server and kept it private for the clan members... Owners can also give admin rights to trusted individuals, who will care properly of the server when the owner is not around... I know, cuz I am one of those trusted individuals... Also, a password can be used to get into the server and keep the trouble makers out..

[ruggbutt]

Play with people I know.

LOL, are you sure that worked? Our [GR] server used to be full most of the time and we played with many of the squads we matched against and friends we made from other leagues. And an admin was almost always present on our server. And we caught people cheating constantly, at least 1 a day. That was with replays, IP loggers and all of the squad leaders having access to our replays via the web. Cheaters only lasted a couple of map drops before they got busted but saying to play with people you know is lip service. Even trusted squads would once in a while have a new guy slip thru who was smurfing or was just plain hacking. So while that person was wearing squad tags from a group of guys I trusted, it didn't guarantee a clean game.

And th33f is right, admins should be present to admin their server. We used to have this jaggoff who insisted on coming into our server and tiptoeing, even after being warned it was a bannable offense just like it was on all but one league. But that POS kept coming in. Finally kept him out by banning half of the IP's out of New York state.

Edited September 21, 2006 by ruggbutt