ToW-Angel Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I know that this is a very heated debate in many different threads, but KEEP THIS ONE ON TOPIC. Do not attempt to hijack the thread, do not do anything at all. Here's the idea: Since GR:AW has an anticheat system, and once more tools for this are emplace, we should consider getting a group of individuals together who truly know the game, truly know how to review replays (if available?), screen shots, log files and/or any other information. A website could be created so that people could turn these types of things in, the individuals look at the information that is turned in and then process information and determine if a person is truly cheating. Once the person has been truly deemed as a cheater, they get added to a master ban list that is available to be downloaded by server admins to ensure that the cheaters truly do stay out of our servers and that the integrity of our servers remain with honest players. If the person is not deemed a cheater, no action taken. Now, I do know that we do not have all the tools emplace to do this yet, but there is nothing from stopping us from starting this up now, then once the A/C system is 100% functional and we have the tools and access to replays, server log files, screen shots and any other information, then we will be working in the right direction to stop cheaters and keep our servers cheat free. We as a community can do this, and we would need to elect our core staff of people who truly do know the game, even get GRIN involved... I'm sure that if we show interest that they will fall in place and assist us, and give us real tools to use to combat cheaters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulater Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 http://www.team-srs.com they were there for [GR] and may be there for GRAW if it ever takes off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 Does someone know someone over there and ask them? If not, then we are left to our own devices to figure it out for ourselves. What does [GR] use for A/C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FI_FlimFlam Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 It would be a good thing to get the ground work for this type of admin community for GRAW in place for when (if) the AC matures or a 3rd party AC mod makes an appearance. Of course this all hangs on if transferable ban lists are an option at some point. Otherwise, something like this isn't as vital since bans will be local only. I think a separate website/community would be appropriate. I also think it should NOT be a closed circle of people voting on it. I think any admin that is a member should be able to have input on submissions of whatever format is made available from the AC (SS's, replays, FRAPS). If you can submit you can vote. I say this because as it enables the fairest comprehensive review of your peers (server admins). With a closed small number of admins, the chances of abuse or adgendas is much much greater. Also more insight can be obtained on submissions that might not have been reached or known by a smaller group. The group has to strive to be as impartial as possible. If it appears that they are not, they then lose all credibility. Addittionally, safeguards must be in place to not put specific player information in a public forum until such time as the player is found to have positively been cheating. Trust me it's really easy to suspect and really be confident that they are cheating but not have 100% proof. There should be no doubt before placing a person on a community ban list. There are a ton of things that might be able to happen but we'll all have to wait until such time as more information regarding the SADS's, their administration, and AC features. Until then it's all guess work as to the specifics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) It definitely sounds good to me... That's why I put it out there for the entire community to toss in their ideas. I agree with you 100%, FlimFlam. Some other things that need to be taken into consideration is... 1) Who will get the website? 2) Who will maintain it? 3) Who will admin it? 4) Who will the moderators be? 5) How will the website be paid for? 6) Who will get the domain name? 7) Will we accept donations to pay for the site? There are a lot of other variables here that we need to consider also. While we will have Admins, moderators and site maintainers... They should only take care of the site and make sure things get put into appropriate forums/threads and such. There needs to be a way to submit the info without it going public. What would you say to only the Server Admins being the representatives to vote whether or not someone is cheating? I don't think we could have the entire public voting on it. But, I do believe that it should be knowledgeable people who do the voting. Edited July 15, 2006 by ToW-Angel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cangaroo.TNT Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FI_FlimFlam Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 All good questions. Which is why it's important to be as open and upfront about things. If you attempt to be closed about it you appear elitist and you lose credibility. It's going to take a grouping of people to come together and then progress will start in that direction. Maybe someone will start by making a donation of their time to provide and admin the website. I think at this point it's important to start considering these things for when the AC is released. Keep it in mind and when the time comes it makes it easier to move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicK Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 You should go talk to MILAR. I believe he is in BDA right now. He is with RespectedAdmins and they did a wonderful job in Ravenshield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) Definitely! I'd offer to host it, but my connection is cramped enough. I strongly believe that we should have something emplace before a fully functional A/C is released. Maybe GRIN could let us know some things prior in regards to the A/C that we can start to develop other tools such as maintaining a master ban list and a repository can be used to download the master ban list through the use of a very simple auto-ftp program that autochecks the ban list on regular intervals. Maybe Nemon can help out with this if he's not too busy? Also we'd need individuals to assist in programming that part of it also. There's a lot of things that can be done an emplace before the A/C is fully functional, but like I said... We have to truly show interest in doing this or it will fail, then the game fails because of the lack of everything else. I feel if we have it emplace, people will see that not only is GRIN working on it, but others in the community will get involved and start to help too. You should go talk to MILAR. I believe he is in BDA right now. He is with RespectedAdmins and they did a wonderful job in Ravenshield. It should be someone that knows him to talk to him about it. Coming in cold won't really get me anywhere. Edited July 15, 2006 by ToW-Angel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FI_FlimFlam Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) Alot of what you will be able to do depends on the actual implemention of the AC, if banlists are supported, information in log files, etc. Really without knowing that information, you can plan the website but that is about it. Setting up the other things like autoftp of banlists will have to wait until more details are released. Right now it sounds like you are interested a structure like what PsB has - which is pretty good IMO. It might be good to get ahold of Omix or Terrynator over there for and see what it took to get PsB rolling. I'm sure they can give some good advice for starting everything. Milar and others probably wouldn't mind be approached cold as that your intentions are pretty good and in line with what they are already doing. Also something to consider is that Respected Admins might be willing to take GRAW on as a game they would manage banlists for. However it's a bit more of a closed system - not completely - which is why idealy I favor more of the PsB design. That's not to knock RA tho they are definitly doing alot of good. www.respectedadmins.com Edited July 15, 2006 by FI_FlimFlam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulater Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 In [GR] we had replays. Some teams with community minded individuals started a group that would independantly look at any replays and decide if the person was cheating or not. A conviction meant a ban on all servers that were part of this group. As it stands we have no way to deal with cheaters. even if we could identify them we cannot ban them. if we are able to ban them in the future then i suggest getting with SRS or Respected Admins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 If someone knows someone over at these places, it would make things go alot easier than someone they don't know hitting them up out of the cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeLocityChaos Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Its a good idea Angel. But I think that it might be alittle to soon for this yet. Im all for it though. My fingers are crossed that we get some form of replays. A replay in the hands of a trusted review counsel is "almost" the perfect AC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) It's better sooner than later... I'd rather have something emplace than to scramble at the last minute and make things more of a mess than they needed to be in. Even if these other places say "Sure... lets get the game on board!" While it may have been in fraught to get everything else setup, those involved wouldn't make it hard to switch on over anyway to one of these other organizations. If they don't, then all efforts would not be in vain and we'd have something there to start handling things like this as soon as the A/C tools are available to server admins. Edited July 15, 2006 by ToW-Angel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidmark Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 In [GR] we had replays. Some teams with community minded individuals started a group that would independantly look at any replays and decide if the person was cheating or not. A conviction meant a ban on all servers that were part of this group. As it stands we have no way to deal with cheaters. even if we could identify them we cannot ban them. if we are able to ban them in the future then i suggest getting with SRS or Respected Admins. To add to this we also had programs such as tracer mod, which was used extensively to catch people using retlock. It made every bullet fired a tracer round, you could then see exactly where the players bullets were impacting other people, and also the bullet spread. Made for interesting replays, (for example)especially when someone was moving and using full auto, with every bullet hitting the same spot. If we do get replays then I am sure another tracer mod wouldn't be much of a problem to create for GRAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulaski Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Since GR:AW has an anticheat system, and once more tools for this are emplace, we should consider getting a group of individuals together who truly know the game, truly know how to review replays (if available?), screen shots, log files and/or any other information. Good idea, only problem AW doesn't have a Anti-cheat nor replays. If UBI/GRIN was smart they would add support for PB which already has a support site with almost 40,000 members. http://www.punksbusted.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 Since GR:AW has an anticheat system, and once more tools for this are emplace, we should consider getting a group of individuals together who truly know the game, truly know how to review replays (if available?), screen shots, log files and/or any other information. Good idea, only problem AW doesn't have a Anti-cheat nor replays. If UBI/GRIN was smart they would add support for PB which already has a support site with almost 40,000 members. http://www.punksbusted.com As it's been said in the posts here, they only support PB Enabled games. There is an Anti-Cheat in the game now, but it is not effective or worth much YET. I still hold out hopes that it will be more than it is currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILAR Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 well I have and any others from RA have been waiting to see what GRIN will give us when the dedicated files comes out. If any sort of AC is gonna help we need a type of support that will inherit IP's , maybe a type of GUID or something of that nature. That way we can implement a banlist of somesort. If so we can track ip's, guids and keep them off our servers. This will be a valuable tool. I'm personaly heading up GRAW side of respectedadmins and I really want this game to be what it has the potential it can be. I have played the game since the begining and not going anywhere, for those that played RVS know that game was ###### in the beginnig but became a very good team-based squad game, still is. But for know all we can do is wait and see what GRIN gives us. Really sad though especially witht the breakthroughs we made with pb, that they didnt incorporate in the game. Big mistake in my opinion. But we will work through it and see what we can do. It will be a community effort that will be the only thing we as a whole can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 well I have and any others from RA have been waiting to see what GRIN will give us when the dedicated files comes out. If any sort of AC is gonna help we need a type of support that will inherit IP's , maybe a type of GUID or something of that nature. That way we can implement a banlist of somesort. If so we can track ip's, guids and keep them off our servers. This will be a valuable tool. I'm personaly heading up GRAW side of respectedadmins and I really want this game to be what it has the potential it can be. I have played the game since the begining and not going anywhere, for those that played RVS know that game was ###### in the beginnig but became a very good team-based squad game, still is. But for know all we can do is wait and see what GRIN gives us. Really sad though especially witht the breakthroughs we made with pb, that they didnt incorporate in the game. Big mistake in my opinion. But we will work through it and see what we can do. It will be a community effort that will be the only thing we as a whole can do. So, do you think that RA will get involved with GR:AW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILAR Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 (edited) So, do you think that RA will get involved with GR:AW? sure I have already started it. But for now there isnt much we can do. Also as far as GRAW side of Ra it will be pretty much open to the community for those that wish to take part. Edited July 16, 2006 by MILAR_BDA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeper_3d Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Lemme start by saying I am not trying to flame here, but I dont think respected admins is the way to go. I think a lot of the rules they setup for ravenshield were very closed minded and suited their style of play (refering to their restrictions on ALL key bindings) and I think we would be better off setting up an A/C community for GRAW by the GRAW community not an outside entity. Thats just my opinion if anybody else has any comments on this lemme hear them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILAR Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 well reaper this is a different game and a new start. Nothing is set in stone. we dont know yet what we can do, as far as the key binding in RVS thier was a very good reason why we did that. It wasnt to take away from the game it was to take care of the exploits that the game had loopholes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane snyper Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Check out AASA (America's Army Server Admins) at www.aaserveradmins.com They are (to my knowledge) the largest anticheat community for Americas Army. I'm not sure but I think server owners (or renters mostly I guess) sort of 'subscribe' to AASA. Basically the server is added to a list of AASA servers, then admins (or anyone else with access to pb screenies) can submit a suspicious screenshot to AASA. Then some of the people active in AASA review the screenie, and if they determine it to be a hack they add the players name to the master ban list. Last I checked there were like 20,000+ names (actually account id #s so you cant just change the name, you gotta make a whole new account including doing like 40+ minutes of basic training) on the list. Then servers download the updated list ever so often (I think they are mostly automated), and all of a sudden hackers are denied access to a good portion of Americas Army servers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILAR Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Pretty much the same as PB and RA. But for now we have no tools to govern any type of banlist. Like I said it will take some sort of Ip,GUID, or something that will track players that will keep them off the server with a type of banlist. Until we see what GRIN gives us to use we dont know what we can do at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToW-Angel Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 Milar, thanks for coming here and discussing this with us. I do have some further questions to ask. While RA does have a strong group of individuals who kno the A/C system of PB really well... Is there any chance that RA could branch off into GR:AW in such a way that it is still part of RA, but it's own unique community of individuals specifically geared towards GR:AW? It's not to take away from, but to add to. Although, I'm still not sure that this would be a good or bad way to go if RA was to do it, but maybe GR:AW could use it's own community with the support of RA? GR:AW has its own A/C system, so it will be a completely new beast to RA as well as the rest of us. I have been part of 2 different anti-cheat organizations, and both were, for the lack of better words, politically driven. I'm not saying that RA is politically driven in the least, it's just that I've seen a lot also in the gaming community. I feel, IMHO, that GR:AW does need it's own community of A/C, but would like the support of all the other anti-cheat organizations. More of a consortium of support, but ran by the community of GR:AW. There is a lot of work to be done, little time to do it in, and definitely have to have something emplace before the crap hits the fan and everyone is scrambling like chickens with their heads cutoff. Anyway, that's where I'm coming from... Others may have a different opinion. But I feel if it's home, then it needs to stay at home where the people who play the game are. These are only mere ideas, and by no means meant to take away from any other organization out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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