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GRAW net code, lag and reliability


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It's really quite simple.

Say your upload speed is 1Mbit ..... you host co-op for 4 people, you would have to set it to 128k ...and even then your pushing it some as there isn't any room for overhead.

The killer question, say you have a stupidly high amount of bandwidth, what real world difference does having it set from 128K , 512 ..1MB make to gameplay?

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Do you guys think the GRAW netcode is inefficient or not well made?

This is not a poke at GRAW as it seems to be the norm on shooters these days.

Angel i just don't think that the more sophisticated models should make that much more difference than they did in GR1. And if games these days are sending info more often to be more precise it doesn't show.

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It seems to be the m/p code. I remember when FarCry came out there were the exact same kinds of problems. When Soroc and Suli got finished fixing the issues w/FC's m/p code (in OE) people could join with a 250 ping and not be handicapped.

Most likely there are errors being generated and need to be "cleaned up" so that erratic data that isn't needed by the game no longer continues to be sent. This is the case with many m/p games wherein the same complaints are being reported as inn GRAW (and in FC).

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If im understanding this correctly. For a 16 player server the lowest suitable bandiwidth you would need is 2megs of upload? That is at the lowest setting of 128k...

So, on my 768k upload connection the most I could host "Properly" is just 6 players?

This would explain alot of the lag Ive saw in MP. Like what was said above, being shot and killed from a player who was still in the run animation.

Im wondering what exactly are we missing if the server is set at 128k vs 1meg?

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Just want to keep this on the front page. We really need a clarification on how upload speed impacts GRAW from GRIN. I know it's the weekend and probably no one's around, but I would like to know if it is worth fighting this to host a coop game.

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If im understanding this correctly. For a 16 player server the lowest suitable bandiwidth you would need is 2megs of upload? That is at the lowest setting of 128k...

So, on my 768k upload connection the most I could host "Properly" is just 6 players?

This would explain alot of the lag Ive saw in MP. Like what was said above, being shot and killed from a player who was still in the run animation.

Im wondering what exactly are we missing if the server is set at 128k vs 1meg?

Talked to GRIN earlier today, they are definitely working on giving us an answer.

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If im understanding this correctly. For a 16 player server the lowest suitable bandiwidth you would need is 2megs of upload? That is at the lowest setting of 128k...

So, on my 768k upload connection the most I could host "Properly" is just 6 players?

This would explain alot of the lag Ive saw in MP. Like what was said above, being shot and killed from a player who was still in the run animation.

Im wondering what exactly are we missing if the server is set at 128k vs 1meg?

Talked to GRIN earlier today, they are definitely working on giving us an answer.

Cool, thanks!

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Well I am continuing to look forward to some clarification here. based on what I have seen and measured GRAW does not really seem to require that much bandwidth in game. The network traffic it produces while starting the game is, however, quite significant.

I'm really a bit surprised (and distressed) that this question has proven "difficult" for them to respond to :unsure:

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Well I am continuing to look forward to some clarification here. based on what I have seen and measured GRAW does not really seem to require that much bandwidth in game. The network traffic it produces while starting the game is, however, quite significant.

I'm really a bit surprised (and distressed) that this question has proven "difficult" for them to respond to :unsure:

It's the weekend, give the guys a little bit of a break lol

Seems that they plan on addressing this issue, I am sure there is some proprietary info that they would like to keep to themselves. Let 'em work it thru, patience grasshopper! :)

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Rugg i didnt realise you OE guys had worked on the actual net code for FC OE.

In FarCry dm i found the lag awful and unplayable, just like in OpFlash. In OE though i almost never noticed a problem. I thought it was cause the characters running speed was at a more GR like pace.

What does it say about the amount of attention a dev puts into net code when modders have to clean it up for it to be usable?

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All I know is...

People will run around a corner, and still be running as far as my screen is concerned, but they will shoot me

Or I will get shot when I am completly around the corner by bullets that are coming at me "around" the corner (re: I just ducked into cover and I get shot)

And that drives me up the wall.

I don't know enough to be of any help though. :(

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n00Blet question here, but I gotta ask:

In BF2 (I know, SHUT UP about that game) it is recommended by the publisher that you turn off any firewall/AV before attempting to play online MP, as that may cause CONSIDERABLE lag. IS THAT THE CASE ALSO WITH GRAW? WOULD IT HELP AT ALL TO SHUT OFF MY FIREWALL?

Thanks y'all...

HECHO IN MEXICO!

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Well im from Australia here, and there is no Dedicated servers here... ive seen about 2 once, but they are not always up 24/7, and usualy just someone hosting on a slow connection.

My best ping is the "Ghost Squad" servers, with a ping of approx 250-300. Man that is high as but it doesnt run that bad at all. I can still get kills the only thing i really notcied is that when i shoot someone, there is about a 1 second delay before they fall and before i see the "UNWRITTEN shot NOOB"

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I'm hoping that GRIN will answer this one soon!

Indeed, I think my previously slightly premature concern over the delay is now becoming more justified :whistle:

Why is that so concerning? I'd rather they dedicate that energy and time towards the SADS to be quite honest with you.

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I was just doing some math here.

128k I am assuming is kilobits no bytes. Otherwise you would need 1mb upload per person.

Ok, so we 'know' that the server can send 128,000 bits of information per second to a client. For those of you who dont know a bit is a 1 or a 0.

Now lets say just because we dont know (and for simplicity's sake), lets just say that all the server has to send is the players position (x,y coordinates) direction and speed (delta x and y), ammo count, stance, and whether or not the player is firing.

Trust me, this is a HUGE simplification of just the data it has to send about the individual players, not to mention all the physics related data (positions, orientations and directions of every movable object in the map, etc), plus... well theres lots of stuff trust me.

Ok so now lets decide how much data each of the things we are talking about consists of.

Position/Direction and Speed-

Obviously if you are going to aim at a badguy you need to know where he is pretty accurately. GRAW maps are pretty big (something like 400x400 meters I think, though there doesnt seem to be a set limit). With 9 bits per coordinate you would then be able to know within about a meter of where the people are. We need way better than that. With 12 bits you can get it down to about .1 meters, which should suffice for now. So 12 for x, 12 for y, 12 for delta x, 12 for delta y.

Ammo Count-

Well that machine gun holds 180 rounds, so for ammo count we should be able to get by with 8 bits (that gives us resolution to 256).

Stance

Not sure, but lets just pretend we can get by with 4 stances (I would assume GRAW actually uses way more, but really I have no idea). So call it 2 bits.

Firing or not

Lets call it 1 bit.

Bits transferred per refresh = 59

And remember, we didnt even include data about where the player's gun is pointing or anything, this is just a demonstration.

But wait! Thats not 59 bits the server has to send to the player per refresh. Thats 59 bits for each of the players on the server that the server has to send to each player. Lets say your on a server with 15 other players. 15x59=885 bits per refresh.

If the server has to transfer 885 bits per refresh (to each player), and can only transfer 128 thousand bits per second, thats a little less than 200 refreshes per second.

Obviously 200 refreshes per second is plenty, but just think what happens when you add the ability to aim, add some frag grenades, and maybe a bunch of cans in the street. Suddenly that games running awfully slow.

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you did omitt a few things...

another bunch of coordinates for determining which way is the client pointing his ret. then, ballistics - some of the heaviest server slowdowns are caused by excessive fire. given the firing rates on the AR's are from 12 to 15 rounds a second, a full auto burst is most likely a very long chain of numbers...

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but just think what happens when you add the ability to aim, add some frag grenades, and maybe a bunch of cans in the street. Suddenly that games running awfully slow.

In my opinion the cans are of not much value. If they cause a lag burden, I think they should be either totally removed or greatly reduced in number. I have never heard an enemy ruin his position by a can. I can only hear when I kick one myself...

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Why is that so concerning? I'd rather they dedicate that energy and time towards the SADS to be quite honest with you.

It is concerning because it really should be a 3 minute task to let us know what this server setting does and how we should set it based on network capabilities. If answering this requires redirecting efforts away from serious and important development efforts, then something must really be broken. :wacko:

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It is concerning because it really should be a 3 minute task to let us know what this server setting does and how we should set it based on network capabilities. If answering this requires redirecting efforts away from serious and important development efforts, then something must really be broken.

I have a feeling broken is not the case, but patched and optimized. I'm betting the #'s that are there were before patched and as each patch optimizes the netcode, it isn't the same as it was. Either that or UBI isn't letting them share it yet.

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Why is that so concerning? I'd rather they dedicate that energy and time towards the SADS to be quite honest with you.

It will help EACH of us optimize our SADS settings so can get the best gameplay. THAT'S WHY!

To be quite frank, I'd rather they dedicate time to the SADS than the ingame server. Why? Most games will be on dedicated servers, not PC's (as they are now). The majority of well developed games have SADS that are heads and shoulders above the ingame server.

I am sure the ingame server will improve in time, but again, my personal preference is the SADS development and testing.

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