my faith is waning on GRAW

[liteluvr]

Interesting observation here..... while reviewing the recent posts in this thread a few moments ago... I noticed another member reading the posts... a GRiN_DrHanke....

And yet oddly enough... not a single post from anyone with GRIN to even acknowledge the topic, the situation, or even that there might be a problem.....

IMHO, that speaks VOLUMES....

Call this confrontational, adversarial, or whatever you want, but I think it's high time some GRIN people weighed in on this topic.

[WNxOpz]

Interesting observation here..... while reviewing the recent posts in this thread a few moments ago... I noticed another member reading the posts... a GRiN_DrHanke....

And yet oddly enough... not a single post from anyone with GRIN to even acknowledge the topic, the situation, or even that there might be a problem.....

IMHO, that speaks VOLUMES....

Call this confrontational, adversarial, or whatever you want, but I think it's high time some GRIN people weighed in on this topic.

good going! you probably just scared grin off from even browsing the forums now!

[Judge_Recluse]

What was he supposed to say?

It would be a waste of time for him to respond to this thread, as nothing he would say would help. if he said, "Just wait till you see what we have in store for you" it would have been met with "Why wasnt it released at the beggining" or " Nothing you can do now will save this game" comments.

If he would have said " Im sorry you dont like teh game anymore or are losing intrest" the responses would have been worse. I think its best that they just read and see where the community is going instead of responding when there is nothing they can do with words to change a persons mind.

It has to be hard enough to come on here to read all of negative stuff as it is, all we can ask is that when they do read this type of post, they take notes and do what they can to make the game better, or should I say "more complete".

[Slow]

PaPa6;

What the heck, you bought the $50.00 ticket, stick around and see where it goes. Worst case, it's a deadend. I would guess, it's not the first time you wasted 50 bucks.

Slow

[RAbbi_74]

What was he supposed to say?

It would be a waste of time for him to respond to this thread, as nothing he would say would help. if he said, "Just wait till you see what we have in store for you" it would have been met with "Why wasnt it released at the beggining" or " Nothing you can do now will save this game" comments.

If he would have said " Im sorry you dont like teh game anymore or are losing intrest" the responses would have been worse. I think its best that they just read and see where the community is going instead of responding when there is nothing they can do with words to change a persons mind.

It has to be hard enough to come on here to read all of negative stuff as it is, all we can ask is that when they do read this type of post, they take notes and do what they can to make the game better, or should I say "more complete".

Halelujah, indeed, amen, hominah, et cetera...

[ToW-Angel]

The only thing I will say is... ANYONE? ANYONE?

If not, then read this thread: http://www.ghostrecon.net/forums/index.php...#39;s+truly+sad

[Papa6]

hey, all i said was that I'm losing faith in GRAW. I also said that the coming july patch will tell me whether or not GRAW will come full circle or it will sink in my eyes.

But i too was a hardcore supporter of GRAW. but after many disappointing issues with GRAW, I'm thinking my thoughts were just based on emotion. it was a new game and exciting to see new maps.

that's just the way I am. but I'm not going to be positive about something that makes me think negative. I even said to grin in my first post in this thread that i hope if they do another sequel that it does well.

Some folks think negative posts are bad. but did my drill sargeants think of this during my basic training? criticism should be a mark of where you or something stands. Graw stands as either an unfinished product or a finished flawed product. what i think is that GRAW was released "as-is" and when things went bad, Grin had had to fix alot of issues and still do. they added new gametypes because we, the masses demanded it.

I know this game was complete because they added an anti cheat to the game and porked the MP games. it's easier to build something into something from the beginning then have to go back and thrust it in like AC was.

[Dragonl0rd]

Well... it's summer... (at least on the northern hemisphere)

Time to go outside and play in the sun. (or rain...)

At least, that were all my gaming partners are...

I'm still hoping that by the time fall comes by, there will be sufficient patches, mods and new stuff to be really enjoy GRAW to it's full potential.

The game looks good, the AI is tough, the potential is all there.

I'm hoping UBI does not pull the plug on their support for GRIN.

You never know how 'suits' will react...

Come on GRIN, keep your moral up, finish the coop mode and give the modders the tools they need to make it a landmark in gaming, as [GR] was.

[Papa6]

I'm not so sure m8. it's kinda like Grin rolling a rock down hill with holes and bumps in it. Grin is running behind the rock trying to plaster up the holes and bumps while the rock is rolling downhill.

then the new gametypes seem more like a consolation then a help. all the games i have here, minus GRAW have had dedicated files with the games already. even my Deer Hunter 2005 by Atari came with dedicated files.

I'm just curious if the individual(s) at Ubi who authorized the release of GRAW still have thier jobs?

I think Ubi did a nutbuster on Grin.

[liteluvr]

good going! you probably just scared grin off from even browsing the forums now!

If they're not interested in even READING honest feedback, however negative it might be, then we might as well turn out the lights, cuz the party's over....

What I want them to tell us is simply the truth.... or as much as UBI will let them tell.

Now, don't get all hot and bothered that I'm calling anyone a liar, cuz I'm not... saying nothing is not a lie... it's just... nothing...

I don't want UBI/GRIN to tell me what I want to hear.... (although that'd be awesome ) What I want is some plain unvarnished facts about where the game stands, the performance issues, the play modes, etc.

If the stance on performance is "suck it up and get a better machine, or go play solitaire", so be it... now I know what to expect, and can make the decision to continue playing, or focus my attentions elsewhere.

As for some other gametypes/mods/maps, etc... I have no doubt those will come, either from GRIN or the mod community. Either way is fine, but my point was, and still is, that the game has to perform or it's all a lost cause.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking GRIN... Software development is at best a thankless job, because you can never get it the way YOU think it needs to be... and you always worry about how much of your user base will like this feature, hate that feature, etc... It's impossible to hit a happy medium, so you draw a likely target, and hope like hell you get close.

To GRIN_DrHanke, and any other GRIN staff perusing these forums... please don't take these comments as attacks. Speaking for myself, I'm venting my frustrations at having a year's worth of expectations fizzle more and more as I played the game.

My point in that particular post was merely that silence speaks volumes when nothing else is heard...

[Judge_Recluse]

" No Comment at this time " annoys me even more, " We are not allowed to divulge that information" is another one.

Id rather just wait till they speak till I listen, instead of concentrating on the silence.

I understand what you want man, everyone has their own opinion on what should be said and what should'nt, that includes GRIN and Ubi.

So honestly all we can do is set our own time in which we will call it quits and move on. If we are wrong in our decision then we can change our mind in the future based on info that is out at that time.

Dont get me wrong, Id love for some gut spilling here so I knew what was up, and what to expect, but I dont think its gonna happen.

[Papa6]

good points. Criticism is criticism. constructive or not. but it should give an exact idea of just how your project really is.

I'm thinking Grin got the short end of the stick in this all. what a shame.

[Judge_Recluse]

good points. Criticism is criticism. constructive or not. but it should give an exact idea of just how your project really is.

I'm thinking Grin got the short end of the stick in this all. what a shame.

Could not agree more. They were given apples and told to make lemonade.

[liteluvr]

And y'know.... fan disappointment aside, that's the real shame in this fiasco....

GRIN gets shafted on their first major undertaking because the twits at UBI hamstrung them. Sadly, these are the things that can ruin a good software house's reputation.

I sincerely hope that the GRIN team can weather this storm to go on to produce some more titles that might be winners.... they honestly seem like a good bunch of guys, and I DO understand the limits under which UBI may have placed them with regards to what they're allowed to tell us.

GRIN, file those away under lessons learned.....

[WillieP]

I had hopes until I saw the map editor. I do have 3DS Max, and maybe if I saw future in the game I would take the time. But come on, compared to UED, cryengine sandbox, and some others, this editor is lacking for anyone but the experienced person. Anyone else is stuck in lego land. The sets are incomplete, and a great many appear to be exported with the wrong origin. No terrain generation, please this is Ghost Recon isn't it.

The map editor has pretty much sealed the deal with me. Unless you are willing to do everything in 3D app you will not create anything original. Lincoln logs anyone?

There are 2 things I look for in MP game:

A good map editor

Auto download of maps and mods.

It is the 21st century, and any game that does not atleast incorporate these two attributes is lacking. If you don't have these features, then you are not mod or internet friendly for that matter.

Valve, Epic, Blizzard, and Crytech will get my money from now on. These are companies that support their work, and they provide for us. They may not offer the game type/ game play, I am looking for, but I am tired of settling for anything less.

Blizzard still supports StarCraft. Crysis is being made only with the PC in mind. Epic has probably the best editor and net code around. I buy every new Unreal product made for the PC, some I know I will only play for a week. Why? Because they are a company to behold. Don't like the game play, but they do support thier game. They also have a mod community that makes every other company jealous.

Don't think anyone of them can come in and fill the void, just look at Blizzard. Strategy to RPG to MMORG.

The blame game:

UBI own the rights and GRIN has taken the contract. This whole if only GRIN could get out from under UBI crap has got to go. GRIN took the job, if it was not something they felt they could do (given UBI's condition) then they should have not taken the job. If someone ask you to do heart surgery would you? Hey the money is good and you are not well known. GRIN accepted this job, it is their baby.

The build it yourself argument I have seen floating around:

Give me good tools then maybe.

As a final note, for those that say spend 50 coin and build it yourself: Build your car yourself,

no from the ground up.

I have a great computer and a connection to envy. Papa6 come over to the dark side it is not your connection, computer, or your khakis. I bet you don't have the lag in SP. I, like you, will give it one more patch, but honestly I don't think I can get past the editor.

[Papa6]

But willie P, I'm sure they have families and dirty habits to feed. But really, Grin could've done a thousand things. the truth is, while I do have my opinions out in the open, Grin DID get alot accomplished in 14 months.

I think I'll wait and see IF a GR 4 matrializes. but then again i might be out of the pc gamer scene before too long.

I think I need a new hobby.

[NoQuarter]

I think I need a new hobby.

Remember...everything gives you cancer.

[Papa6]

I think I need a new hobby.

Remember...everything gives you cancer.

then light up!

But really does photography cause cancer? digital photography...

[WillieP]

The thing is, if Grin could not do the job in 14 months then they should not have taken the contract. People here treat Grin as if they are the victim in someway. If only UBI this and UBI that. They took the job, agreed to UBIs wishes (if any), and turned out GRAW. They are getting payed make no mistake about that. The victims in the corporate BS are the fans.

If in a few months GRAW is the game, then I will personally apoligize, and harvest many players for the game (I always need more people to play with, I have been giving away farcry with the OE mod to friends and family this week, total cost $180).

I just see so much UBI this GRIN that. Not one of us knows what the contract is/was/ or should have been. All I can judge is what I got. I am only judging the download feature and map editor here (and maybe the lag). Give a decent map editor and download feature, and maybe, just maybe I could see investing some time.

Make no mistake, I have seen many good things in GRAW. Their attention to detail in some areas is amazing.

PS I would have paid $150 for Ghost Recon with updated graffix and editor. UBI are you listening.

And hit that enough Papa6, and everything is OK!

[Judge_Recluse]

Well if GRIN did not take it, I seriously doubt anyone would. We would still be sitting here waiting for our game.

Was GRIN crazy for taking on this project? maybe so. Point being is, they did, so you either stand behind or push them down when their not looking.

It would be like your College Proffesor giving you a 100 page essay to write in one day, then he gives you an F the next day because you had spelling mistakes and lack of content. You did your best with what was given to you, but it was not good enough. Now if he gave you the summer to correct it, and it still was horrible, then you deserve the F.

[sui317]

i think grin does a great job with graw and support around here,

i also think they got word from ubi at some point in time that this way we are walking now with the patches and stuff was to happen

and that it would be the only way to meet ubi demands on the release and the community demands on the game

they just can't say it out loud

must be frustrating for them aswell to see things in this way

i can not imagine how anyone would agree otherwise to release a game the way they did gRAW.

but we'll see how things end up after the summer patches and then we can evaluate the game for real

[Papa6]

I'm not so sure. I think GRIN to some extent got hamstrung.I kinda feel this was a "just give the pc fans something.. anything!"

I also forgot to mention something, impressions are the lasting ones, good or bad. but they can and do change like i have mine.

I don't agree with this" it could be my hardware." my hardware works fine.

I haven't played my GRAW in well over a week. I don't miss it at all.

[Lightspeed]

lol Papa,

after you bagged the complainers like myself so hard, good to see you've come around.

see you in ArmA or Obsidian Edge...or both Id suggest.

[Janie42]

Was GRIN crazy for taking on this project? maybe so. Point being is, they did, so you either stand behind or push them down when their not looking.

IMHO, it's not an either/or scenario; there are many positions for people to take along this continuum. As well, "negative" comments concerning what the game lacks, gameplay issues, problems with any of the patches, etc. are not necessarily synonomous with pushing GRIN down when they're not looking.

It would be like your College Proffesor giving you a 100 page essay to write in one day, then he gives you an F the next day because you had spelling mistakes and lack of content. You did your best with what was given to you, but it was not good enough. Now if he gave you the summer to correct it, and it still was horrible, then you deserve the F.

Not the best analogy, perhaps, as (in Canada anyway), professors are not free to assign impossible tasks to students. In fact, colleges and/or universities carefully govern the kinds of assignments & the weights of each that are allowed as far determination of course grades goes. In such a situation as you've outlined, there would be no question that the professor was responsible for the problem, and he/she would be required to bell the grades, eliminate the assignment completely, etc. Actually, he/she would also be sure to "get a slap on the wrist" at the very least from the Admin as well!

IMHO, GRIN took on the GRAW contract & obviously both GRIN & Ubisoft believed that it could & would be successfully carried out... to completion! I cannot conceive Ubisoft, or any other publisher, contracting for an unfinished product? Hmm, a good concept for book publishers: write the book in parts, charge full price from the outset, then when people are upset that it's not finished, cheer on the author to finish writing it? (Joking...)

[LAW]

I have something to say.

Before anyone makes note of me only having one post - let me explain. I have been with GR since the beginning. Yes, the beginning. I was even playing the RB6 series since its inception. I venture to say that I have possibly logged more hours on the [GR] than any 5 players in this forum combined. Yes, I do have a life and a pretty good one at that. But I truly loved the first GR. Still do. GRAW is not GR.

The reason that I only have one post is because I do not (usually) post in forums. The reason? Most forums, regardless of good intentions, turn into an internet shouting match between immature players. Most of which do not know what they are talking about not have any information to prove or back-up their claims.

UBI has sent most of the true PC GR fans on an emotional rollercoster over the past few years. I am amazed that they have any support left whatsoever. First, the long wait from GR1 to the release of GR2. Oh yeah, wait a minute .... that never happened.

I personally feel that UBI NEVER had any intentions of releasing GR2 for the PC. But they kept telling us that it was almost ready. Then, delayed. So we waited another month ... delayed again. We waited another month .... delayed again. The whole time we are waiting, we are assuming that they are working on it. So, we waited and we waited and we waited ... finally they announced that it was not being released for the PC at all !! I could hear the foundation start to crack in the GR Community. Betrayl was whispered among many of the true "hard core" GR players. I was one of them. And my suspecions proved to be true.

UBI, instead, choose to only release GR2 for the console gamers. Then, we (the PC gamers) were told that GR2 was not released for the PC because they wanted to give us "more". They said that they wanted to release a Ghost Recon that was up to our standards. So .... we wait, and wait and wait .... then, as if God, himself, spoke to us ... UBI announces the release of GRAW. Wow, even I was excited (I must admit). Still cautious, but very excited.

I even pre-ordered 5 copies of GRAW for me and the rest of my group. When the local shop we ordered from did not receive their copies on time, we all paid for the game again and downloaded it (legally from Direct 2 Drive).

At first, I was pleased. Not over thrown, like I expected or should have been. Just pleased. But hey, even the first GR has some issues when it was released. I was willing to give it a chance. After all, I had already been waiting for 5 years. What would another month or so hurt?

Soon after entering the map editor, I realized that this game (although boasting the Ghost Recon name) was not and never will be Ghost Recon. Still though, I did take the time (approx 150 hours) and made 5 very good maps. The editor was laiden with bugs and glitches. Many of my maps had to be done and re-done numerous times before final complettion. I realized after I had finished my 5th map .... wow, there are not any more maps that I can make !! What I mean by this, is that the editor is very "cookie cutter" in nature. There is no terrain generator and the LEGO piecies that were given to us are just that .... LEGO piecies. If I were to make another map, it would have to much the same as one of the other 5 maps that I had just finished. There is a very limited selection of buildings, object, props, and terrain.

I have not released my maps and probably never will. I realize that many of you could care less and that is fine. In truth, if I feel this way, then there are others who must feel the same way. For those of you who have just arrived here in the GR world you cannot understand what this means. Ignorance is bliss. I envy you.

The [GR] is still being played for several reasons. One is because the game is solid and was, overall, just a good, fun game. Reason two is because the mod community supported the game and made new maps, new weapons, new game types and new characters. It kept the game fresh and interesting. I truly do not see this happening with GRAW. If it does not - then it will die!

In fact, I will no longer refer to this new game as GRAW. From now on, I will simply call it ... "AW". I do not feel that it deserves the GR title and therefore, I am removing it.

Simply put ... I am willing to give AW only one more chance. If MAJOR changes and improvements are not made, then I (along with thousands of other GR supporter) are gone!

In fact, I have recently come across an older game - FarCry. Now, FarCry itself is not my bag. However, it has been modded by a group called the Polishing Weevles. They have transformed the faster paced FC into more of a tactical shooter - very much like the [GR]. If you want to see some real "hard core" GR fans, then you need to check out their mod of FarCry. It is called Obsidian Edge. It is closer to the [GR] then GRAW will ever be.

I cannot stress this enough .... if YOU are a true GR fan, then you MUST check our the Obsidian Edge mod for FarCry. I love it. And as I have already stated, I was possibly the biggest fan of [GR] in the world.

The mod team for Obsidian Edge (OE) is now in works with Crytech and they have their hands directly in the new game - Crysis. Within a few months of Crysis release, the new OE2 Mod will also be released. I have not seen much of it yet, but I can already tell you that it will BLOW AW out of the water.

In fact, after typing out this manifesto, I just realized that I am DONE with AW. Why would I play a game that is not what I like? .... The answer is simply and true for many of you. Memories and Emotion. Yes, you still have ties to [GR]. Wake up. AW is not GR.

Come with me to the dark side. All I ask is that you try the OE Mod for FarCry and I promise, you will see what I have seen. The 'real' GR is now known by a different name.

GR:OE. I stand here as the first of many who will come to realize this.

You may read this and immediatley dismiss what I have said. That is fine. I was just like you a few months ago. Eventually, one night, while you are home playing AW, something will happen that makes you finally realize .... hey, this is not what I want. Then, all I can ask of you, is that you at least give OE a try. You will never have to admit that I was right and that you were stubborn and wrong. We will let all that be water under the bridge.

I will get my revenge anyway. By the time you admit, realize and actually buy FC with the OE Mod, I will be light years ahead of you and I will slaughter you over and over and over again. This will be my satisfaction.

I have gone on far to long and I apologize. I guess this is what happens when you wait so long before posting in a forum. At any rate, I hope you had the attention span and love of the [GR] to read the entire post and now you may join me and my group in GR:OE. I truly hope to see you there. BTW - we did just put up a dedicated OE Server. Feel free to join us there for some GR game play.

Edited July 11, 2006 by LAW