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Create Your Own Game?


WhiteKnight77
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Create Your Own Game?  

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Many times, we have seen someone say that they could build a better game if they had an engine to use. Would you be willing to pay $10-$15 for one level that gives you the framework and access to the SDK's so you could build your own game? What if some of the great modders around here had access to it? Would you still buy the base level? What if there were some developer created add-ons further down the line that added more features? What do you think?

On another note, would you be willing to pay for mods if they offered something that was better than anything else? Would you rather not have payware for an FPS or tactical shooter?

Sound off and let yourselves be heard.

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People have already paid for mods, as long as they're packaged like new games (Bf Vietnam, for example.)

Anyway, no. If this forum made a game the result would eb utterly terrible. Too many ideas and not enough ideas of how to make a game that's actually good, and that's pretty common everywhere else too.

Most people with the talent and experience to truly make something great are in the industry already, or otherwise not interested in modding.

Also, frameworks for making games sell for potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars. No way someone would give away a solid engine + sdk for 10-15.

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Anyway, no. If this forum made a game the result would eb utterly terrible. Too many ideas and not enough ideas of how to make a game that's actually good, and that's pretty common everywhere else too.

Most people with the talent and experience to truly make something great are in the industry already, or otherwise not interested in modding.

Maybe not a "community game" but what about a dedicated group of modders?

Also, frameworks for making games sell for potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars. No way someone would give away a solid engine + sdk for 10-15.

But, what if?

-John

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"Most people with the talent and experience to truly make something great are in the industry already, or otherwise not interested in modding."

Devs Mod too. They just do not advertise to you who they are, it is not uncommon.

Engines can be had for much less. People do not need the latest buzz word engine to create a great game. Most games in one way or another (even great games) are behind the curve on "ccurrent" Engine tech. It is not the software, but how the people use it.

If some one very talented lead up a team to create a great game, and they leveraged their experience to offer something up of excellent design. I would buy it, even if the tech was a year or two old.

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To perhaps better explain the poll:

Disregard that it's being hosted here. Disregard who posted it, and who is commenting. Instead, focus on the basic idea.

Imagine a developer house manages to secure a license to a commercial game engine. They are granted the ability to resell not the engine, but the toolkit along with the basic binaries. It's offered cheaply to modders/gamers as it's not the root source, but it's still 99% of the code needed for them to create an experience limited by their own abilities.

Counter-Strike is a great example. Disregard what you may think of the mod/game, but think of the popularity of what started as a user made mod, using limited tools, and became a Valve-sponsored entity with so many years of popularity.

Would you pay a nominal fee, as a consumer and/or modder, for a 'game' that was a tech demo, but bundled with all the tools needed to make it a game entirely your own, without the overhead of huge licensing fees to the engine developer?

Would you consider paying for content created under the above situation, considering your personal desire for quality/gameplay? In other words, would you buy a mod if it was inexpensive to purchase the 'root game' and the mod was of a quality you appreciate?

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If a game developer is modding instead of getting hired for a real job they have some kind of problem.

No they don't. Game devs mod all the time while gainfully employed at a developer. It gives them a chance to work on personal stuff that they may not get to do in theier real job.

Why do you think they have a problem?

-John

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If a game developer is modding instead of getting hired for a real job they have some kind of problem.

No they don't. Game devs mod all the time while gainfully employed at a developer. It gives them a chance to work on personal stuff that they may not get to do in theier real job.

Why do you think they have a problem?

-John

Of the artists I've talked to all are both uninterested in oftentimes doomed to failure mod work and far to busy to devote time to it. I apologize if my experience with them isn't reflective of all other developers; it's my mistake.

Edit: And by problem I didn't mean to imply anything wrong with them personally. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but I was meaning to say I thought they would have to be in an unusual (and theoretically problematic) situation.

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How does it defeat the purpose? Have you ever checked out the flight sim community? They have many payware mods, both scenery and airplanes that are great. Granted there are some that are not so good, but with research, you can avoid those.

My point is that mods always have been, and should remain, free.

They are user created modifications that, generally - not always, happen because a developer has released their tools to allow modification, or has built in mod support into the game.

It's so terribly wrong for the average Joe Shmoe to profit off of the generosity of these developers. Much less, it's wrong for Joe Shmoe to profit at all.

Yes, they do a LOT of hard work, and the time committment is tremeandous. But I think it takes away from it if you know people are doing it for money, and not for the betterment of the game they love.

Not to mention, PC games are already expensive, the average user like myself doesn't want to pay for mods no matter how good they are. It's all part of this open-source idea, that people have the ability to create (for free) and others have the ability to use their content to customize (for free).

I do think that mods you buy really take something away. The whole idea of mods is the ability to share freely and openly on the web your creative exploits because you enjoy doing it and want others to be able to use what you have worked so hard on. That should be enough payment for any modder (hech, my mods - cheap and lousy hit 200 downloads and I was estatic!) The payment comes in gratification in a completed project, watching that hit counter climb, and the respect they recieve from the community.

I don't appreciate modders who make people pay for their work. I think it's greedy and just wrong.

But that's my two cents and I don't expect everyone to agree. This is an opinion poll, there's my opinion.

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My point is that mods always have been, and should remain, free.

They are user created modifications that, generally - not always, happen because a developer has released their tools to allow modification, or has built in mod support into the game.

It's so terribly wrong for the average Joe Shmoe to profit off of the generosity of these developers. Much less, it's wrong for Joe Shmoe to profit at all.

Yes, they do a LOT of hard work, and the time committment is tremeandous. But I think it takes away from it if you know people are doing it for money, and not for the betterment of the game they love.

Not to mention, PC games are already expensive, the average user like myself doesn't want to pay for mods no matter how good they are. It's all part of this open-source idea, that people have the ability to create (for free) and others have the ability to use their content to customize (for free).

I do think that mods you buy really take something away. The whole idea of mods is the ability to share freely and openly on the web your creative exploits because you enjoy doing it and want others to be able to use what you have worked so hard on. That should be enough payment for any modder (hech, my mods - cheap and lousy hit 200 downloads and I was estatic!) The payment comes in gratification in a completed project, watching that hit counter climb, and the respect they recieve from the community.

I don't appreciate modders who make people pay for their work. I think it's greedy and just wrong.

But that's my two cents and I don't expect everyone to agree. This is an opinion poll, there's my opinion.

Ah... an Idealist! No problem there, I don't mean it in a bad way.

But what if the developer designed the product around the idea of a large mod community that was fully able and encouraged to expand the game further thatn it already was, with the blessing to profit from thier work if they saw fit to do so. What about if the base game was not $50 and it was, as the poll suggests, $10 and maybe you put another $20 into mods along the way. That would leave you only $30 in, still far less than a retail game.

I believe in Open Source, but the whole ideal of people always taking and giving for free has it's limits. Sure. making some weapons mods and such are easily defined by this, but what if someone made a new campaign with 5 new maps and new characters? Would something like that not be worth $5 for you if you only spent $10 on the base game to begin with?

Analogies are a dime a dozen, I know, but I wouldn't expect to go into my local coffee shop and get a danish for free with my coffee simply because it enhances my coffee drinking experiecce.

I would wager that your opinion is shared by many and it's a just one, but try to think outside the normal retail channel that we buy games in today. Personally, I dispise paying $50 for a game. $35 is my sweet spot, and I would gladly spend $10 on a base game and another $25 tailoring it to my tastes with mods.

Good discussion. :thumbsup:

-John

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The idea is a very interesting one.

I agree with Sup about the fact that a game developed by an entire community would be bad. Too many cooks in the kitchen type situation. Too many ideals.

But a game (or content) developed, piece by piece, by a group of modders such as some of the better ones around here might have a brighter future. The core would have to have enough content and substance to it that the game could be played and enjoyed even before modders have a chance to really dig their teath into it. Not much, just enough that people could get a taste of the engine. For an FPS for example, a couple characters/missions/weapons would be enough. It would take a group of very dedicated modders a long time to publish enough good content. In the meantime, the game intself would be dead in the water for non-modders. The level of support to modders from the devs would have to be imense.

There are so many things to consider, this has not scratched the surface. But let me say that I applaud Devs who are willing to do things like this. Take chances, have new ideas. It won't be perfect the first time, but this is a concept that is worth a try.

Edited by JTF-2
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To me this wonderfully provoking though poll could be cleared up by changging a few words.

10 dollor base game with one level. =

Indie game kit.

Mods, or modders. =

3rd party add on developers.

This concept looks less like a deal of charging for mods, than it does opening up the 3rd party add on market to indie developers. By opening it modders can have the opurtunity to join in on the 3rd party developer bandwaggon. (AKA Steam).

Any one remember when 3rd party add ons where produces judisiously?

I am going to pick on John, since I never have and his name comes with wieght.

If Blackfoot Studios where to produce a tac game. That included one level, under the premise of a tac sim dev environment. Allowing Modders (and others) to step up into the 3rd party realm, and produce sellable expansion content for this "frame work" game. I would feel the desire to purchase. Since as a fan of the genre, it mean I can buy a cheap core, and then tailor my purchase with other small purchases enhancing my fun factor in my little corner of a tac community. I would be all for it.

In fact I have been for this concept for a long time. I am a strong believer in efficiantcy through re use, and this concept at its core allows for people to produce better content through the reuse of core content. As a gamer, I could care less if fred nobody made and sold me kick ass fun, or if Ubi did. So long as I got Kick ass fun for my money.

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@John,

I see your point, definatlety. And I agree to a certain extent.

I think paying for mods is wrong... but I'm not so idealistic as to not do it myself. Okay, $5 for a mod... maybe, depends what we're talking about. A mod the caliber of Frostbite, heck yeah! Sign me up. A mod that's just average... eh, not so much.

$50 is outrageous. $10 to $15 for the base game is an idea, but I'd be afraid of it turning into "Every mod for money!" I don't want to drop cash on a small weapons mod or small characters mod. Because sometimes all I want are some new unis or something. I would consider paying a small amount for a larger mod, simply because it does go against what I believe. Under the right circumstance, I would buy a mod.

However, for me... I'm an MP guy, not a SP guy. Mods aren't as prevelant in the MP world because they vary so much and some people don't have hours to spend on 56K to download them. So, I might break down and spend $5 on a mod to get more MP game play in. I just would hate for all the SP people to have to pay so much to enjoy a game, when it all could be for free.

Why not have the best of both worlds?

A $10 to $25 base game, with an engine and a few things, some mod tools, and some free mods! :D

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If Blackfoot Studios where to produce a tac game. That included one level, under the premise of a tac sim dev environment. Allowing Modders (and others) to step up into the 3rd party realm, and produce sellable expansion content for this "frame work" game. I would feel the desire to purchase. Since as a fan of the genre, it mean I can buy a cheap core, and then tailor my purchase with other small purchases enhancing my fun factor in my little corner of a tac community. I would be all for it.

Completely agree, and I bet we're not the only ones.

As far as paying for "3rd party addons." I would, but only rarely, for something of outstanding quality or something that I really wanted. Frostbite, WOI, or even the character mod by eSKwaad Delta Force 1990, are examples of worthy pay content.

It's up to the community to decide what kinds of pay mods thrive. Noblody will pay $10 for a skin pack. But maybe they'll pay up for all new characters/units. who knows. Capitalism. Supply and Demand.

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im down with it... getting paid for modding? Game industry would burst. No longer a competition of who has the best graphics and best of show at e3....

Lots of competition will enter the market and i bet gameplay will be more of the focus then graphics alone in most cases.

I love the idea and I really have been wishing for somthing like this to happen.

and honestly.... moddding is getting much tuffer with all the graphic tech be used now. Its no longer GR modding in most cases and requires lots of work to make good total conversions.

People who do A quality work I beleive 100% that they diserve some money for it. Not talking Retail game prices 40-50$ but with mass sells and it would be icing on the cake for people to keep doing this kind of work.....

is blackfoot thinking of somthing?

Edited by Prozac360
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"And now you're defeating the purpose of indie.

If indie devs wanted to do that they'd just be modding; they're working in indie out of principle."

Quite the contrary.

Indie has no "Purpose"

Indie, is not a spirit. It is short for Indapendant Developer. You will find Devs doing Indie out of "Principle". But that is far too generalized a statement to include all, or even the majority of Indie devs. Indie does not represent an attitude, or a company size. It represents a studio or indavidual developers state of publisher Indapendance.

As for the second statement, please re-read my post carefully.

Producing 3rd party content can a good move for some studios.

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"And now you're defeating the purpose of indie.

If indie devs wanted to do that they'd just be modding; they're working in indie out of principle."

Quite the contrary.

Indie has no "Purpose"

Indie, is not a spirit. It is short for Indapendant Developer. You will find Devs doing Indie out of "Principle". But that is far too generalized a statement to include all, or even the majority of Indie devs. Indie does not represent an attitude, or a company size. It represents a studio or indavidual developers state of publisher Indapendance.

As for the second statement, please re-read my post carefully.

Producing 3rd party content can a good move for some studios.

I know what it means.

If independent developers wanted to be modders they wouldn't be independent developers, they'd simply be modders. Modding a 10 dollar one level game is no different, really, than modding a full game like Unreal. There is no reason they'd start doing it if they aren't already just because it's a few dollars cheaper.

Prozac, if people are doing high quality work and want money they need to get a job or some freelance. There isn't money in modding, and there's no reason for that to change.

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"I know what it means."

From your comments I really do not think you fully understand the point of Indie or the poll. You are tied to the words, and not the point of the poll.

Once a modification becomes comercial it becomes a third party add on (or first party if aquired). Always has. Modifications are no longer Mods once they are commercial. They just Started as mods. In many casses (as expressed by the example given in the poll) the root would be a Mod, but not the final product. They will share common techniques.

"Prozac, if people are doing high quality work and want money they need to get a job or some freelance."

And who are you do tell a talented artist or coder what they should do to make there money?

eh, Que Sera Sera, you and I just read this whole thing different I suppose. Very Very different.

Edited by Suli
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I think this poll has actually broken itself into 2 distinct discussions.

1. Paying for mods

2. Paying for a decnet tech demo/game framework inexpensively that is fully moddable and available for 3rd parties to make a game or add-on of thier own

A thought just ocurred to me..... Would some of themore talented poeple out there, employed in the industry or not, be more inclined to make a "mod" or add-on pack to a game like this than say Unreal Tournament or HL2, simply becuase they could turn it into a "cottage" business? I know many developers that would love to start thier own small shop, but the cost of entry is enormous! Sure you can buy UT2004 for $30 now and make the next best game from it, but if you want to make money form it you will need to pay Epic hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I wonder if something like discussed here might free some of those talented individuals or teams up more to break away from the industry giants. Would we as gamers get more quality products for less money?

There are many aspects to this and in the end it's all speculation, but it does make us think outside the typical industry lines. :thumbsup:

-John

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I would have to say yes i would pay for both, But than again im a x360 guy so it's going to be that way soon enough anyways one way or the other and it's looking like both!

But we buy a full game and mod it to no end and turn around and sell it back on the market place. At least this is what they said the x360 is going to do, but if anything PS3 is supporting indie games 100% so im sure Microsoft is on board with this also or at least will be soon enough. I guess now it's all on the game devs to make the choose on how much they can mod there engine. It may not be PC, but the idea is the same and almost all of us are for it.

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At least this is what they said the x360 is going to do, but if anything PS3 is supporting indie games 100% so im sure Microsoft is on board with this also or at least will be soon enough.

Microsoft has already been supporting Indie with arcade. I doubt they'll let Sony upstage them.

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