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Hi

I havent yet bought the game but ive read about it since one week. So i heared the graphs are very nice.

But more importantly i was wondering if the original weapon realism is still active. I mean is this game/ shoots this game like the Dark angel mod or not? Hope u know what i mean ...

So - is the original (like in GR1) weapon realism (like aiming after movement and after a small burst - aimining as in have to take a few seconds to be accurate) maintained or is it all autoaim and away with realism in GRAW?

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Thx for yr fast replay - however it looks like i will have to upgrade seriously :)

U will soon c my name in blue aswell because of this interaction and service for the pc-platform that is offered. The pc-players, i think, are the GR-Intellectual-Elite and it very nice to see that there is a dialogue, constuctive communicatian, non-ecplicit language, etc ... A VERY NICE FORUM INDEED!!!

So, at this pace i am conviced that GR will revive to its full potenial. I am very optimistic about the future of GRAW

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it's not as realistic as was touted. the recoil feels wrong. there is no bullet flight time. you shoot at a target 300-500 meters out as soon as you pull the trigger they drop. there is no bullett drop either. bullets fly on frozen ropes apparently.

i don't like the game as is. i could see it growing on you but i'm waiting on the infamous june patch and people's thoughts on it before i purchase the game. the complete disregard for mp has left a bad taste in my mouth.

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it's not as realistic as was touted. the recoil feels wrong. there is no bullet flight time. you shoot at a target 300-500 meters out as soon as you pull the trigger they drop. there is no bullett drop either. bullets fly on frozen ropes apparently.

i don't like the game as is. i could see it growing on you but i'm waiting on the infamous june patch and people's thoughts on it before i purchase the game. the complete disregard for mp has left a bad taste in my mouth.

I know this is just your opinion it must be your system or something because i think it plays great as far as recoil and bullet recognition and or flight time(this is my opinion) it is one of the best games in regards to that I have ever played. :g_withgrin:

Edited by Budweiser
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it's not as realistic as was touted. the recoil feels wrong. there is no bullet flight time. you shoot at a target 300-500 meters out as soon as you pull the trigger they drop. there is no bullett drop either. bullets fly on frozen ropes apparently.

i don't like the game as is. i could see it growing on you but i'm waiting on the infamous june patch and people's thoughts on it before i purchase the game. the complete disregard for mp has left a bad taste in my mouth.

I know this is just your opinion it must be your system or something because i think it plays great as far as recoil and bullet recognition and or flight time(this is my opinion) it is one of the best games in regards to that I have ever played. :g_withgrin:

unless it has changed from the demo there is no flight time for the bullet and no drop.

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it's not as realistic as was touted. the recoil feels wrong. there is no bullet flight time. you shoot at a target 300-500 meters out as soon as you pull the trigger they drop. there is no bullett drop either. bullets fly on frozen ropes apparently.

i don't like the game as is. i could see it growing on you but i'm waiting on the infamous june patch and people's thoughts on it before i purchase the game. the complete disregard for mp has left a bad taste in my mouth.

I know this is just your opinion it must be your system or something because i think it plays great as far as recoil and bullet recognition and or flight time(this is my opinion) it is one of the best games in regards to that I have ever played. :g_withgrin:

unless it has changed from the demo there is no flight time for the bullet and no drop.

Where exactly did you manage a 500m shot in the demo, or anywhere else for that matter? :o I don't think there is anywhere in the demo where you have a 500m line of sight.

There is no bullet drop/flight time in the game, you are correct in that respect. This has also been known since before the game came out. But seeing as 95% of the combat takes place at ranges where these aren't an issue anyway it's not a showstopper (the average range of engagement is under 150m, usually under 100m - given that some of the weapons have a velocity of 980m/s.... the flight time is very small indeed). The recoil in the game is nicely done, imho.

Edited by Trident-za
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it's not as realistic as was touted. the recoil feels wrong. there is no bullet flight time. you shoot at a target 300-500 meters out as soon as you pull the trigger they drop. there is no bullett drop either. bullets fly on frozen ropes apparently.

i don't like the game as is. i could see it growing on you but i'm waiting on the infamous june patch and people's thoughts on it before i purchase the game. the complete disregard for mp has left a bad taste in my mouth.

I know this is just your opinion it must be your system or something because i think it plays great as far as recoil and bullet recognition and or flight time(this is my opinion) it is one of the best games in regards to that I have ever played. :g_withgrin:

GRAW PC suffers from community induced hype and to some degree the perfect remembrance factor. People remember GR1 as it impacted them rather than as it actually played back then. Had there been no predecessor the title might have been better received. But it lives with a ghost. GR1.

That said, you are correct. It is his opinion. It is also the opinion of every person with real world experience that also games and with whom I have spoken. All titles must make compromises somewhere. But on speaking with several programmers, some where made for absolutely unfathomable reasons. GRIN stated their realism research came from movies and the internet. They also have some one on staff with some military experience. They did have RSE's assistance in this regard had they chosen but they did not. Considering such help is free of charge, hmmm.... :blink: And the recoil is way off actual.

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Hatchetforce... thank you. As always your posts are informative. A question for you: if recoil and accuracy (as per someone in your unit's training) were included in any game - would this not detract from the gameplay experience? If everyone was a superb shot who could doubletap a guy in the chest at 200m in under a second how long would "firefights" last? Without the added "excitement" of gunfire exchanges lasting more than 1 second, who would play this game for very long?

Just curious really... I know you are working with some game developer and they are apparently focusing on realism, to your standards. How are they dealing with the "gameplay" issue? Like you, I loved The Regiment. Great game, more realistic than most... and with an unbelievably small player pool. Hardly the kind of commercial success Ubisoft (or the game developer you are working with) would have been wanting.

Actually, I'd be very interested in knowing what compromises GRIN made in terms of realism that RSE did not make with the XBOX360 version. I haven't played that version, but I'm curious as to what "realism compromises" that version has that are "right".

Edited by Trident-za
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@hatchetforce

i have no weapons experiance as in shooting high powered rifles, but i do know you can zero your rifle and that it is often done to compensate for the bullit drop over the average distance

this game has as mentioned before by others no real long distance shots

zeroing a rifle is at about 200/300 meters (i have heard) there for the bullit drop is not an issue i guess

the speed factor at these distances don't even apply ingame because of the PC's running it and if online the lag, (meaning it is a drag on the pc resource hog and creating internal lag etc. etc.)

putting them in would make it worse than reallife i think, but i am not an expert so i ask you your opinion, would it make a REAL difference ??

concidering the game as it stands in these settings ?

as for recoil ? i have no clue on that, and i am a single shot person so don't have issues with it

Edited by sui317
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... But on speaking with several programmers, some where made for absolutely unfathomable reasons. GRIN stated their realism research came from movies and the internet. They also have some one on staff with some military experience. They did have RSE's assistance in this regard had they chosen but they did not. Considering such help is free of charge, hmmm.... :blink: And the recoil is way off actual.

My god - that doesnt sound very promising.

In the Official perfect guide2001 page 200-211 there was statistical data printed - i assume from the weaponmanufacturer - so i quess this will now not be the case?

Edited by Flagstaff2
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Bullet drop and travel time both could not be added without significant changes to the way the game calculates shots, I would imagine and as stated, most of the ranges in the game are sub 200m in the first place with but a few exceptions.

As for the recoil, that is something that can be modded now by changing just a very few settings. Perhaps someone with real world experience will step forward and tweak the settings to make the recoil more accurate or work with a modder to do so.

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I wish I had more time to respond to the all that was written above. Trident-za, to address what you said, the reason not everyone is a super shot in real life nor would they be in the game is there are factors such as stress, fatigue, fitness level, environmental factors, and the general situation - which has too many factors to list. There is a game currently in development right now and it is addressing all of these issues. Game balance absolutely has to be attended. After all, if a title is not engaging then it is no fun. And a game should be fun, even if it is nail biting (a form of fun) or something philosophical (Soul Reaver series).

The Regiment did so many things correctly. The producer and the lead designer have to decide on what factors to concentrate based on time schedules. 'When it's done' is fine for Duke Nukem but that isn't they way the game development world works in general. The Regiment also was not promoted very well and wasn't even sold in the US. It should tell you how far that game could have gone when I say I have yet to talk to anyone and I have yet to see one post where someone says they bought it and were not surprised by how good it is. A missed opportunity for Konami and countless gamers in the U.S. Yes there is a game in development that adresses these factors. The 360 version also took a direction in many repects some things are accurate, some are not. They also nailed some things very well. Serellan can address the amount of ballistics modeling that went into the MP portion and what they could and could not do.

Optics are not perfect. You can zero a wepon but it isn't quite perfect at all distances. Otherwise talented snipers would be a dime a dozen. :blink: At short distances bullet drop and bullet rise (They rise too :thumbsup: are not factors) I don't think bullet arc shift or 'flash to bang' are issues with the game. Recoil is another matter.

Edited by Hatchetforce
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Hatchetforce, thank you :) Given your "day job" I can't think of many things less important than replying to me, so I really appreciate your input !

Good point on the accuracy issue. It's something I personally think is lacking in GRAW - endurance and stress hardly seems to have an effect. Hopefully, this will be tweaked (although so many people are complaining that it's already too hard to hit someone).

I agree with you fully on The Regiment. In fact, the only reason I bought the game was because I saw your review ( I had previously read several scathing reports on how difficult and linear it was) - and I WAS suprised at how good it was, even after reading your post. Definately a missed opportunity by Konami.

I'll have to take your word on the ballistics for GRAW XBOX360 MP (not doubting you, just haven't experienced it), unless Serellan posts something. But, I'm definately interested in this "game in development" :)

Nonetheless, for all it's faults, GRAW does a lot right. It's an extremely good game, with an awful lot of potential. As you said earlier, GR1 was not perfect, or close to it - it was, however, the first of it's kind and as such it gets a very high "rememberance" score. Just wait until Alpha Squad and the like get their hands on the modding tools for GRAW - GR1 will have nothing on it ;)

Edited by Trident-za
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Hatchet, I actually got to talk to an old Ranger Instructor the other day he "retired" in 98. Althoe he still said he voluntered to go back to afghan and iraq.

I dont remember all the exact words he used but he was a CQB instructor and talking to him in depth about weapon control, fire and movement etc....

Well, after that talk to him... then coming back to look at this game. It is a pile of garbage if it is supposed to be realistic.

No puns intended thoe, as it still looks fun Just needs some serious patch work.

BTW* graw 360 was a much better classic feeling then the PC... i am not really suprised it came out that way as they had more time / serellan here for a longer time in the community (where the classic feeling really shines, in MP)

*LOL* edit... new patch sounds good =) might be worth a buy now.

Edited by Prozac360
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it's not as realistic as was touted. the recoil feels wrong. there is no bullet flight time. you shoot at a target 300-500 meters out as soon as you pull the trigger they drop. there is no bullett drop either. bullets fly on frozen ropes apparently.

i don't like the game as is. i could see it growing on you but i'm waiting on the infamous june patch and people's thoughts on it before i purchase the game. the complete disregard for mp has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Where do you find a 300 to 500 meter shot with these maps, on a roof?

I havent gone looking for shots like that, but I dont recall shooting over 150 meters yet playing online multiplayer.

In GR2 for x-box the longest shot you could see was 250 on the Training grounds map.

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Depends on conditions, wind velocity, round type and alot more

I never took the time to notice that fellas. But specops soldiers use "proofing rounds" which produce much higher muzzle velocities. but what do I know... :huh:

I don't think you can get a game "truly" real except if we all went into the military service to do this for real. but even then, yes, the game would be short lived... :(

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Here is a question on recoil... since none of these guns are in service yet... how do we know what the recoil is? aren't they made with more plastic parts? wouldn't that make them lighter + have more recoil on auto? I don't know so i am just asking.

As for bullet drop... most battles aren't close to the distance needed and to make the game fun, i noticed at longer distances it sometimes takes more hits depending on your caliber of weapon. Bullet drop would reduce the fun factor as would wind and such. (example... GR1 had neither and i don't think it's recoil was realistic without a mod, instead it used ret bloom to simulate)

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Here is a question on recoil... since none of these guns are in service yet... how do we know what the recoil is? aren't they made with more plastic parts? wouldn't that make them lighter + have more recoil on auto? I don't know so i am just asking.

There was a video of a XM8 being shot, the recoil on that gun is almost non-existant. the guy held the gun with one hand at arms length and fired on full auto, and never left the target. It was simply amazing if you ask me. If that recoil was in the game, might as well have ret lock.

Found the link. ---> http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?s=1-292925-xm8.php

Edited by Judge_Recluse
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I never took the time to notice that fellas. But specops soldiers use "proofing rounds" which produce much higher muzzle velocities. but what do I know...

They're using what's issued. I asked Reaper what he used in Iraq and IIRC it was M855. He said that he wasn't thrilled with it's overpenetration cuz he often had to shoot the bad guys 3 or 4 times center of mass before they dropped.

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Depends on conditions, wind velocity, round type and alot more

I never took the time to notice that fellas. But specops soldiers use "proofing rounds" which produce much higher muzzle velocities. but what do I know... :huh:

I don't think you can get a game "truly" real except if we all went into the military service to do this for real. but even then, yes, the game would be short lived... :(

No, we use standard issue ball. When we rolled into Iraq, our 50 cals had ammo made in 1968. Our personal weapons use standard issue ball ammo. The exception of course are sniper rifles which use match grade (107/109 excluded).

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Here is a question on recoil... since none of these guns are in service yet... how do we know what the recoil is? aren't they made with more plastic parts? wouldn't that make them lighter + have more recoil on auto? I don't know so i am just asking.

As for bullet drop... most battles aren't close to the distance needed and to make the game fun, i noticed at longer distances it sometimes takes more hits depending on your caliber of weapon. Bullet drop would reduce the fun factor as would wind and such. (example... GR1 had neither and i don't think it's recoil was realistic without a mod, instead it used ret bloom to simulate)

Some of these weapons are fictional. Others are in service. And the rest have been tested but not mass produced. The last two categories are not made with 'plastic'. There are composite materials in some but they aren't the same weight as a BB gun. Weapon construction materials only influence recoil if they weigh a ton. Weight isn't the major determination factor in recoil compensation. It's design. An example is the fact that the lans and grooves in the twist of the barrel are a big contributer to recoil. Then there is the type of system of operation used (gas, etc) and the recoil compensation system as well.

If you are shooting on full auto, things have usually gone very bad. Most engagements we use semi auto. It's precision fire that counts most of the time.

Edited by Hatchetforce
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Here is a question on recoil... since none of these guns are in service yet... how do we know what the recoil is? aren't they made with more plastic parts? wouldn't that make them lighter + have more recoil on auto? I don't know so i am just asking.

There was a video of a XM8 being shot, the recoil on that gun is almost non-existant. the guy held the gun with one hand at arms length and fired on full auto, and never left the target. It was simply amazing if you ask me. If that recoil was in the game, might as well have ret lock.

Found the link. ---> http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?s=1-292925-xm8.php

I used to be that lighter guns had more recoil, and larger rounds also produced more recoil. This is no longer the case. I shot an AR10 with a Noveske Upper assembly and it had about the recoil of a 5.56mm. You really could not tell it was a .308. It was a semi auto, but I can just imagine how easy this gun would be to shoot in full auto. Just from my limited experience I think it would be as easy as shooting an M4.

I have shot G3 .308s and M14s and they all gave you a bit of shake and rattle, unlike the rock steady full auto fire of an M4. 5.56mm full autos even currently have very minimal recoil, but it seems now that the .308s will also be very easy to shoot.

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BTW* graw 360 was a much better classic feeling then the PC... i am not really suprised it came out that way as they had more time / serellan here for a longer time in the community (where the classic feeling really shines, in MP)

There's a major reason why GRAW 360 MP retains the "classic" GR feel - it's the only part of the GRAW on any platform (i.e. console or PC) that was developed by Red Storm using their own tools used to develop GR1/GR2.

In my opinion, people looking for the "true sequel" to GR1 in terms of MP gameplay "feel" need to play GRAW 360 multiplayer, not GRAW PC.

That being said, I'm sure that with further patches and added gametypes, GRIN will make GRAW MP a great experience.

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