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I dunno, this seems like quite a constructive and reasonable thread to me, with no flaming and folks being tolerant of each other's opinions...

Well you must not have read this thread in its entirety. Its the whole damn forum in general lately. You people dont even realize that you are just helping in the further destruction of PC gaming. Its way harder to please us PC gamers than the console ones. Its way cheaper to make games on consoles. If crap like this continues for too much longer with games. Eventually companines will just say F it and stop making PC games. Its a freaking catch 22 with you guys. Nothing satisifies you. I`ll say this crap again. They had under a year to put this game together. They made a great foundation. Its missing a few things, but they are already working on a patch that they plan on releasing in less than a damn month. What is the damn fuss? They are listening to you. You want LMS..they are giving you LMS..You want more maps..They are giving you more maps.If you continue to ###### even when they listening..they will stop listening.

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I think you're overstating the case.

Computer games are produced for one reason: to make money. While members of GRIN may be hurt that posters here don't appreciate their efforts, the decline of PC gaming won't come from online complaining, it will come from not enough profit. If flaming drove companies to abandon PC game development, Ubisoft would've stopped making ANY PC games a long time ago.

Will all this complaining drive GRIN away from these forums? Possibly. Will it stop Ubi from supporting GRAW? Absolutely not . . . as long as sales are good. If GRAW makes enough money, you could insult Ubisoft's CEO's mother on these forums, and they'd still fund development of a GRAW expansion pack.

It is, and will always be, about money. If GRIN were modders working for free, this would be a different story. But they're not. You may not agree with all the complaints, or the manner in which they're put forth, but your sky-is-falling scenario is as overblown as the most gloom-and-doom appraisals of GRAW, simply in a different direction.

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I didn't say that online complaints were the sole cause for the decline in pc gaming. I said it only "helps". Do you realize how many people ive talked to on MSN and TS who have read these forums and decided not to purchase Graw based on the posts in GR.net and GR.com forums. If you have a choice between a customer base who is hard to please (plus cost more to build the product for) and a customer base who is easier to please and cheaper to build a product for..who do you choose?

Besides the whole point is the fact that we are being listened to. We are getting the main things we want. Just like we did in [GR]. There really isnt a reason to complain in this particular fashion. IF only half of the energy put in some of the posts were used in a positive and imaginative way to think of things you would like to add to the game (like in the old days) instead of just bashing and saying the publishers\devs dont care. We would accomplish so much more.

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I dunno, this seems like quite a constructive and reasonable thread to me, with no flaming and folks being tolerant of each other's opinions...

Well you must not have read this thread in its entirety. Its the whole damn forum in general lately. You people dont even realize that you are just helping in the further destruction of PC gaming. Its way harder to please us PC gamers than the console ones. Its way cheaper to make games on consoles. If crap like this continues for too much longer with games. Eventually companines will just say F it and stop making PC games. Its a freaking catch 22 with you guys. Nothing satisifies you. I`ll say this crap again. They had under a year to put this game together. They made a great foundation. Its missing a few things, but they are already working on a patch that they plan on releasing in less than a damn month. What is the damn fuss? They are listening to you. You want LMS..they are giving you LMS..You want more maps..They are giving you more maps.If you continue to ###### even when they listening..they will stop listening.

So your theory is.. the more we complain.. the more crap we get?

Ok then - lets all thank "god" for what we get - But all we get these days is pure rubish from the PC gaming idustry - But thank you "god". -- Seriously come on!

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Why complain about things that we are promised to get? If you dont see how ridiculous that is. Then thats your problem. We are getting more maps,gametypes etc. Yet, even though they said, "yes more stuff to come" we still create posts about how unfinished this game is. Of course its "unfinished" it was created in under a damn year. GR1 was unfinished when it was released. GR1 was more of an arcade run towards the TI and shoot game before patches. It takes time and "constructive" feedback from the community to make a game the way you want.

Read back in the old ubi archives.. How we asked for binoculars that were standard instead of a kit item. The TI as an option etc etc.. There is a difference in constructive criticisim and the crap we have now. I want the game to be just as good as you guys do. I just know the way we are approaching it is wrong. Surely you would agree, cause if we acted abit more civil about things GRIN would still be answering every question we had just like before.. But where are they? Why dont they come here anymore?

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I think opinions are the best thing at this point for gr:aw to get somewhat of an upgrade..I have never complained about a game before (to this extent on a forum.) and held on to it hoping for something good to happen, as crazy as it sounds its because I hope for something to be done...

Other than that...I hope grin does update it to a better playing standard...I have faith in the GR name, as well as many others. Which is why most people are expressing their feelings about the game.

Why else would this forum be up? To just give an e-hand-job to whomever reads this? I am not here to hook people on something or give false praise...Nor can others!

I just see it this way...If you can't express an opinion (ON A FORUM) then there is no reason to even have a forum...At this moment in time the negative criticisms are more negative than positive for good reason...The game is more than just incomplete...It isnt the game we were looking to play....(we as in people who find the same problems...A lot of the complaints are contrasting..Which is crazy, because most of the time when games are released everyone has a pretty distant view/idea of expectations...If you look at a lot of the threads..A lot of the criticism are the same)

I won't be returning the game or doing anything drastic, like crapping in the box and sending it to the ubi hq....I will just wait..and Hope...For now..The game is not going on this computer... I uninstalled it after I beat the third mission...and to be honest...The vein in my forehead was buldging and I ate a fetus out of pure anger...

-Enven.

P.S. I'll be going to e3 tomorrow....and the day after....I hope to see something worth playing...heh.

oh and does anyone find it funny that the first mission they halo into a city..Why not chopper in...They would have been detected either way most likely...and not spread apart...

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Of course its "unfinished" it was created in under a damn year.

The game wasn't created in under a year. Development started in November of 2004.

Ok fine..Does it really matter. The average timescale for a game development is 3 years. ###### is your deal with finding small details in every thread I make and correcting me? I unfortunatley cant remember every single detail posted on this forum like you magically can. Give me a break. That has nothing to do with my point. The point is the game was made in a very short amount of time. AND THEY ARE GOING TO ADD THINGS WE WANT.

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This is such a ridiculously subjective idea that's there no way GRIN could satisfy it because no two people would agree on what TRUE TO THE ORIGINAL entails. What does it mean?? The gameplay is exactly the same? Or my favorite -- gameplay like GR, only on an updated engine -- which = NOT LIKE [GR]. I really am starting to think that most of the incessant complainers would have only been satisfied by the same exact gameplay with current graphics, which it was NEVER going to be.

Indeed. I'm really puzzled by this notion that everybody KNOWS exactly what made GR1 "feel" like GR1. It's so subjective it's frightening. I'd actually like a detailed breakdown from someone who claims to know exactly what made GR1 "feel" like GR1. Seriously. Not for flame purposes, but to see what exactly you guys are talking about. Could one of you do that, please?

first quote: you say that most of us are complaining about wanting a game that has the exact same gameplay as GR1 with current graphics and that it was NEVER going to be that. Why not? If it makes money, then build it. as evidenced in these posts, thats what most people want.

second quote: There are numerous reasons that [GR] had IT, some of which I will attemp to list.

1: The relatively different first person view, where you never saw the weapon, had a more immersive feel to it, that you were already sighted and ready to go.

2: The touchy/feely peeking ability that you could partially peek or fully peek, head and body, depending how long you held the button down. (Hugely missed here, now it just tips your head sideways and thats it.)

3: The easy MP aspects, replay saving feature, and after action screens.

4: When you got wounded, hearing your ragged breath as you were trying to sneak around.

5: Getting scared senseless when a silenced round hits you out of nowhere, completely knocking you for a loop.

there are many more, but like you said, it is very hard to quantify everything at one time. Perhaps people can add more to this.

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I uninstalled it after I beat the third mission...and to be honest...The vein in my forehead was buldging and I ate a fetus out of pure anger...

Why? What happened? I'm curious. Did you have gameplay or performance issues? Or did you abandon it because you wanted it mainly for mp?

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Ok fine..Does it really matter. The average timescale for a game development is 3 years. ###### is your deal with finding small details in every thread I make and correcting me? I unfortunatley cant remember every single detail posted on this forum like you magically can. Give me a break. That has nothing to do with my point. The point is the game was made in a very short amount of time. AND THEY ARE GOING TO ADD THINGS WE WANT.

You've been saying the game was created in under a year over and over. I'm just letting everyone know that isn't the case. I even posted that earilier in the thread. So sue me that I like to make sure people know the right info.

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Of course its "unfinished" it was created in under a damn year.

The game wasn't created in under a year. Development started in November of 2004.

Ok fine..Does it really matter. The average timescale for a game development is 3 years. ###### is your deal with finding small details in every thread I make and correcting me? I unfortunatley cant remember every single detail posted on this forum like you magically can. Give me a break. That has nothing to do with my point. The point is the game was made in a very short amount of time. AND THEY ARE GOING TO ADD THINGS WE WANT.

uh, ya. it kinda does matter. you stated at least 3 times here that they did this game in under a year. If you can't have a correct statement with this, then how can any of your statements saying "they are gonna fix it and give us what we want" have any credence to them?

Truth be told, we have no idea what they are gonna fix, because none of them are coming here to give us information that will keep us from continuing to rip this game apart.

All my posts here are not to flame GRAW as a game, just as a recon title. As a stand-alone game, iI think it would be fine and not get hit with anywhere near this much criticism.

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Of course its "unfinished" it was created in under a damn year.

The game wasn't created in under a year. Development started in November of 2004.

Ok fine..Does it really matter. The average timescale for a game development is 3 years. ###### is your deal with finding small details in every thread I make and correcting me? I unfortunatley cant remember every single detail posted on this forum like you magically can. Give me a break. That has nothing to do with my point. The point is the game was made in a very short amount of time. AND THEY ARE GOING TO ADD THINGS WE WANT.

Yes it does matter, its so lame that UBI Soft have only given the developers so little time to create a worthy follower to the [Ghost Recon] game, when they knew how high expectations there where to this game. There is just so many flaws and missings in this game that it is unbelieveble to us. They have hornorstly delivered us a mod edit on a silverplate.

Do not by pass the swear filter

Edited by NYR_32
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I uninstalled it after I beat the third mission...and to be honest...The vein in my forehead was buldging and I ate a fetus out of pure anger...

Why? What happened? I'm curious. Did you have gameplay or performance issues? Or did you abandon it because you wanted it mainly for mp?

Bahger,

Hi and thanks for asking; the reason why I abandoned it was because of the gameplay...I was losing interest fast...I dont really favor the size of the weapon model, the aiming is way to simple and so on...I also had trouble with looking at tracers every time I fired...Which was funny to me...

Other than other obvious problems most people posted (Redundant...I know); I was just flustered...I was playing it on Hard...No problem to be honest; the graphics are fine..My rig can play it on high with not huge fps' drop...

Just out of all honesty; I was just getting tired of the feeling of it...I felt like I was playing a console game (I cant stand console...heh).

To add about the MP/COOP thing; that was another important attribute to the gr series I was hoping to check out, unfortunately...I was disillusioned by the entire experience...Just hoping to see an update as soon as they can..I am in no rush about updates (I waited almost three years for this...I can wait another week(s), month, year (even if it came to that) just to see some changes...But I wont say this game is a lost cause...I wouldnt be here if I thought so...I just want to play a part of the devils advocate and reserve some of my mixed thoughts..

-Enven.

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1: The relatively different first person view, where you never saw the weapon, had a more immersive feel to it, that you were already sighted and ready to go.

Personally, I prefer seeing my weapon - it's far more immersive to me. The weapon view and animations are quite nicely done, and a welcome addition imo.

2: The touchy/feely peeking ability that you could partially peek or fully peek, head and body, depending how long you held the button down. (Hugely missed here, now it just tips your head sideways and thats it.)

I agree that this would be a nice touch in GRAW. I don't remember this feature in GR1 at all. Plenty games have this feature though... and they weren't anything like GR1.

3: The easy MP aspects, replay saving feature, and after action screens.

Yes, although this has little to do with gameplay. Perhaps I'm too focused on the gameplay issues.

When you got wounded, hearing your ragged breath as you were trying to sneak around.

Agreed, this would also be a welcome addition. That ragged breathing was very nice indeed :thumbsup:

5: Getting scared senseless when a silenced round hits you out of nowhere, completely knocking you for a loop.

I still get scared senseless in GRAW, but I would like a noticeable effect!!

These are mostly great features which I would love to see added to GRAW (except for no weapon view), but they weren't the CORE of GR1 for me. I suppose it's exactly as others have said - a collection of features etc. But the key, for me, is the tactical gameplay. Everything else is addeable. But imagine a game with all you described but no emphasis on tactical gameplay? Would not appeal to me at all...

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I have to go with rackrunner on this one. A lot of folks defending the product they bought are doing so under the premise that the add-ons/patches will actually materialize, and that's not guaranteed. If they don't materialize for whatever reason (GRIN moving on to another contract, UBI shutting the pocketbook on this one, etc.) then you have what you have. And while Logos was quick to dismiss my earlier statement about how GRIN portrayed what was coming, they did allude to the fact that it would resemble GR in more than just name. From what is being written here, that's where the resemblence ends.

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very true trident. You know what it is with the weapon/reticule thing? I don't mind the weapon in screen so much, but the accuracy drop-off is tough to take. plus, the whole weapon on screen thing is done in soooo many other games. I thought it to be unique in GR1 with the system they used back then.

Edited by rackrunner
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very true trident. You know what it is with the weapon/reticule thing? I don't mind the weapon in screen so much, but the accuracy drop-off is tough to take. plus, the whole weapon on screen thing is done in soooo many other games. I thought it to be unique in GR1 with the system they used back then.

well any GR game should be aiming at realism, so I don't mind abit that we now have a first person weapon view.

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First off, you're all NOT in control of Ghost Recons direction. Whether you like it or not, take GRAW as it is look and feel wise or leave it. But i hardly think having thousands of threads on how much we Hate GRAW is going to change the game in anyway.

The game is designed as it was designed. you can return your game Cd's/Dvds for a refund etc. Noone will think the less of you for it. that's the great part of free enterprise, you can choose not to buy something or you can return it. Just sorry you all feel this way.

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Where do you people live that you can return computer games/software? I've never been to a store where they will accept opened software.

In the US, it is against copyright regulations to return opened software (games, music, etc.). You can get an exchange for the same title if the software was damaged.

All this came about because of people ripping off the system by buying software, copying it and then returning it. Piracy really gets on my nerves. :o=

just a note to some people, I dont know where it is stated it is against the law, but I do know even some local best buy stores will take back a game no questions asked. Along with a couple E/Bs

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