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Question to Grin on their choice of lighting


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First off I the Mods here feel the issue has been "hashed to death" Link I hope posting in another way that is not related to "Why is there no Anti-aliasing?"tho I feel it does rate some importance(but it is pretty much impossible) that is not the point of this post overall its about the overall performance of this game and why.

Well frankly I would like GRIN to give us a real answer about this and why they chose it. The only answer we have gotten so far was from GRIN_Desmond See Link and also the Original Thread

So according to him its a hardware limitation so I ask again why would they choose it then? There is no current hardware that can support it and we cannot expect to(or maybe ever)support this until DX10 or WGF(however you want to name it)so thats basically next year at the earliest.

Now Considering even now MTR Fp16 HDR is barely supported and even then with a workaround(i.e. Oblivion,ATI X1000 Series and the "Chuck Patch" )again brings up a strong point on why they would choose it. As for the Answer from Chuck he had THIS to say. So basically slim to nil chance its going to work on current hardware as you can see by THIS performance analysis also done by Elite ###### it doesnt run very well even on the best cards available and this really isnt even about Anti-Aliasing not being available(now granted it would be nice to have, gamers in 2006 expect to get AA), its the overall performance of this game. Its a resource hog and the reason it is this way again comes back to the particular choice of lighting.

So you may want to flame and say well upgrade your PC? well I already pointed out(see Performance Analysis) the fastest most current cards on the market can barely maintain decent FPS so basically there is no upgrade.

Now what is this Deferred Lighting/Shading they chose to use? Well I wont get into the details of it but I will post some articles and presentations and you can decide how much you want to understand it

PDF From the 2004 Game Developer Conference

Article from Beyond 3D dated July 2003,I might add if this was written in 2003 and in fact is was originally concieved up in 1988 as you will see in the Nvidia PDF isnt all that new so I have to ask why nobody else is using it? Well again it comes down to Hardware.

THIS PDF by Nvidia gives probably the best overall answers on Deferred Lighting and its usage I could quote the valid points but again better off reading thru it yourself to make your own conclusions(dont give up on it because of the "Techno Jargon" they are pretty clear on their stance on it.

So that about sums it up, again I would like to stress this it not totally about the lack of Anti-Aliasing as much as it about overall performance using this choice of Deferred Lighting/Shading and the lack of sufficiently powerful hardware to utilize it.

This is ABSOLUTELY not a knock on the game overall just purely its performance.

I would hope you all will not flame this to death as this is intended as an awareness for all of you as much as I would like an honest answer from GRIN..

Edit: I just wanted to add a link to someone here in the forum that brought up a good point that was also in the NV presentation(sorry it is kinda AA related but more of trick around it) See it Here

Edited by LT.INSTG8R
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When GRIN returns from their vacation they can answer these threads. Until then, I see no reason why they need to be restarted over and over again. :wall:

For now, I will leave this open, but if it turns into another AA moaning thread, I will quickly lock it.

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One of the things you have to understand is that the screenshots do not do the lighting systems justice. The HDR lighting in this game is without a doubt the most impressive I have ever seen. As you walk around the reflection of the sun moves appropriately. Just about every (if not every) object in the game is mapped. Each object has it's own reflectability property. The road reflects light differently from the side-walk and so forth. It's incredible. It also makes every video card on the market gasp for air. This makes sense.

The [Ghost Recon] is still being played, and while the graphics aren't the best ever, they still look decent (compare to the popular, America's Army, and others). This game was designed to last for a very long time. It might not play all that well right now. But next Summer it won't be obsolete. Next Summer we will still be realizing how incredible this game looks on our Nvidia 8600GT (or whatever). The game will last. I don't know if that's why GRiN did it, but it's a possible explanation...

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Graphically yes I will agree Cookie it is impressive, but as you have said at the cost of taxing even the most current of hardware. But then will this game truly have the longevity to be around when there is truly capable hardware?(do I hope so? yes)

Edited by LT.INSTG8R
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One of the things you have to understand is that the screenshots do not do the lighting systems justice. The HDR lighting in this game is without a doubt the most impressive I have ever seen. As you walk around the reflection of the sun moves appropriately. Just about every (if not every) object in the game is mapped. Each object has it's own reflectability property. The road reflects light differently from the side-walk and so forth. It's incredible. It also makes every video card on the market gasp for air. This makes sense.

The [Ghost Recon] is still being played, and while the graphics aren't the best ever, they still look decent (compare to the popular, America's Army, and others). This game was designed to last for a very long time. It might not play all that well right now. But next Summer it won't be obsolete. Next Summer we will still be realizing how incredible this game looks on our Nvidia 8600GT (or whatever). The game will last. I don't know if that's why GRiN did it, but it's a possible explanation...

They have stated before this was their goal...and I agree this should be the goal of every game. That being said, did they optimize it in a way that would allow for a decent game in older systems? So far it doesn't look that way. This may be because they just didn't have the time to do it. It sounds to me like they were given a daunting task and not enough time to complete it. I don't really know exactly how much time they had, but all indication show that they didn't get enough time and we the consumer are now paying for that. At the same time I think it has HUGE potential, which is why I decided to back GRIN and get the game on release…lets hope those of us who have done this get our return on the investment.

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to be honest, i didn't quite read through all those papers you linked, but i thought taht with deferred lighting you'd get lighting that was more real than in previous games, i.e. exact, per-pixel lighting when you character steps from shade into the sun,making possible a seemless transition(for example, only the front of your character is illuminated while the back is still in the shadows).

i'm not sure this REALLY is what deferred lighting does, but to my mind this is a must-have feature for a sneaky-ninja game like ghost recon, as you really have to consider the surrounding light when choosing places to hide.

anyway, the demo runs perfectly on my system and it's not "uber" in any way. :huh:

i think the engine is nice and i love the lighting, either way how it's done!

cheers

LosOutlandos

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See, my biggest disappointment in all this.... when you look at the heat and smoke effects, they are phenomenal. But what justification is there, when these effects are coming out from what looks to be chunks of iron super glued together with twigs holding them together.

I can understand with ambition they may have wanted to try something new and push the boundaries a little, but to completely ignore every element to making a slightly polished game is a joke.

Look at Half Life 2, good physics engine, very customisable and scaleable... apart from the Steam update gripes now and then, the engine looks good and plays well online with CS:S , the physics are pretty good too.

If they were to release an addon, that added AA + Bloom to the original game ...plus some more maps, and another campaign for £15 or whatever ... I would snap their fingers off for it.

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Yes you are fairly correct in how it works. Yes it is a great looking lighting solution but Im am more trying to make the point of its overall usage of resources to achieve this lighting and current hardwares lack of power to truly use it efficiently.

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Im am more trying to make the point of its overall usage of resources to achieve this lighting and current hardwares lack of power to truly use it efficiently.

i see what you mean, still i get the feeling many believe their old geforce 5900 boxes should be able to run the game. those cards were mid-range two years ago, so to start complaining it's not running well is almost presumptuous. i think the game looks GREAT, it's got very nice graphical details while having a superb viewing distance, hdr, etc., so it's only fair it puts a little load on your gpu, right? :P

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I have a BFG 6800GT on a 3.06 P4 HT running the game very smoothly. Is it what I want NOW? No not really but I am quite happy wit it, and I plan on upgrading when Vista gets closer.

Gotta face it, it's time to start upgrading to the next generation!

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you guys that are complaining about not having AA, yet half of you have super ###### cards that can just about play the game, so how would you expect to play GRAW with AA anyway?

NOTE To Admins: This isnt going into AA its about them complaining about Deferred Lighting. Cause we all know what thats about....

Edited by pangbang
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Please pangbang this is NOT about AA and nobody has said anything about it up to this point. You may be happy with the way this games plays thats fine but please keep your comments to yourself as there are many players that get very poor performance with this game and I am simply bringing up the reasons for it which again have nothing to do with Anti-Aliasing

Edited by LT.INSTG8R
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Please pangbang this is NOT about AA and nobody has said anything about it up to this point. You may be happy with the way this games plays thats fine but please keep your comments to yourself as there are many players that get very poor performance with this game and I am simply bringing up the reasons for it which again have nothing to do with Anti-Aliasing

k i wont bother argueing with that, since that this has clearly everything to do with AA, but i dont want to see another thread locked. Just 1 fact, if this had AA in this game, and it some how used deffered lighting, then you wouldnt be asking this question, why did you use Deferred lighting.

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No Im asking the question of why they chose to use a completely unused, resource heavy form of lighting that no current hardware can use efficiently and knowing this still chose to use it at the cost of performance for anybodies system be it high end or otherwise. I covered the AA and I was brief and to the point about it, its impossible I have accepted If you cant accept that then yes please stay out of the thread.

Edited by LT.INSTG8R
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No Im asking the question of why they chose to use a completely unused, resource heavy form of lighting that no current hardware can use efficiently and knowing this still chose to use it at the cost of performance for anybodies system be it high end or otherwise. I covered the AA and I was brief and to the point about it. If you cant accept that then yes please stay out of the thread.

Im pretty sure they used it because it provides the best available form of lighting available. Its also support because everyone is running the game, whether it be a 6800gt card to a 7900gtx, 6800gt is about £70 on ebay, so you have to upgrade your computer some time.

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game is great and the lighting looks fantastic, its the best iv seen and i can see why they chose to use it, especially considering that the xbox360 version is being played on TV's it doesnt look jagged with the absence of AA

the PC version however needs options.

id rather better performance+AA over diffuse lighting anyday.

i could handle losing a few heat waves for the gains...

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Well I guess the bottom line Im trying to get at after looking at all this stuff is if they intended it for "Next Generation Hardware" then should at least make it scaleable until it can be used properly not just by the 1-2% of cutting edge PC's

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Plz just stop pangbang maybe you should take the time to read thru the Nvidia's PDF regarding Deferred Lghting and its disadvantages and stop commenting in this thread like you said you would.

Sorry, where did you see me post something that i would stop commenting on this thread?. I think you are getting angry cause the benefits of deferred lighting far out weigh what you can come up with. Reading that PDF by nvidia just makes me assume you havent read it. You really do remind me of a FanBoy, you get them for nvidia,amd,intel,ati. Face the facts mate, read the PDF yourself, dont just go straight to the disadvantages. It says that we will start seeing it in games, so im pretty sure we will.

Edited by pangbang
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it is scalable, Just turn down the setting till your PC will run it. My PC runs it fine and its not a high end PC by any lenght of the imagination.

2.4 P4

1.5 RAM

6800 GT

XP Sp2 optimized by me for max speed

I love the lighting and effects and think it looks great! I have a feeling you will start to see more game come out that will utilize this type of lighting so get ready.

I remember I used to get ###### when a new game would come out and I had to upgrade but thats just part of it bro. Upgrade or buy a PS3

Edited by RuTHlezz1
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First of all great summary of document links in your first post LT.INSTG8R. Reading the thread I feel we have some more mature discussion compared with last week :)

As a developer you have to decide at early stage which way you want to go with your engine to extend and enhance it to make it capable of running future games. Choosing DL is choosing a way to go with your engine and there is no parallel way to do lighting with the same textures and maps and other data influenced by the lighting. As for the quality settings it's strange to see how many people see a problem. GRIN stated that the high settings are made for future hardware but everyone tries to run the game on the highest settings with current hardware. But highest settings are for next and following years.

The Diesel engine is one of the first who use this technology and in two years we look back and say, wow these guys did know that this is the future. The game runs hardly on mainstream hardware back in 2006 but now everybody is using this technology.

I might be wrong but I don't trust these people at ATI or nVidia esp. when they complain about another companies technology. They have a history with that. Both ATI and nVidia, about faking drivers and dissing technology.

I really know how many people with hardware not up to date feel right now. I had the same feeling when FarCry and HL2 came out. I decided to wait for the hardware and then play the game. Sounds hard but my budget is limited like others too. I'm lucky now, because I upgraded my machine at the right time. Just luck ;)

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I find it curious after reading through those links that the most dramatic go/no-go point of emphasis counters what they chose.

When is Deferred Shading A Win?

-Not when you have many directional lights

Shading complexity will be O(R*L), R = screen res.

Outdoor daytime scenes probably not a good case

-Better when you have lots of local lights

Ideal case is non-overlapping lights

Shading complexity O®

Nighttime scenes with many dynamic lights!

I think your thread question is legit and interesting...

As for the technical jargon discussing occluders, recievers, and aa depths... uhhhhh yeah. I'm gonna go rub my tummy and pat my head at the same time to feel smart again....

bunny.450.gif

Edited by tangovictor
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Sorry, where did you see me post something that i would stop commenting on this thread?. I  think you are getting angry cause the benefits of deferred lighting far out weigh what you can come up with. Reading that PDF by nvidia just makes me assume you havent read it. You really do remind me of a FanBoy, you get them for nvidia,amd,intel,ati. Face the facts mate, read the PDF yourself, dont just go straight to the disadvantages. It says that we will start seeing it in games, so im pretty sure we will.

So now your resorting to personal attacks calling me a fan boy? why do you insist on arguing this with me? I have read it(all of it)They clearly state:

-More research is needed

-One major title has already scrapped it,(also mention another nearly did(maybe GRAW?)

and most importantly they state

-Need to have a fallback anyway

They also mention Z-culling and combining them with Shader 3.0 and possibly achieve performance as good or better.

So its disadvantages NOW(the part of this you aren't getting) far outweigh its advantages until we have cards with "1Gig framebuffers" that can truly handle it.Now granted there isnt alot of "modern" articles on this subject(the Nvidia presentation being July 2004) but suffice to say we arent quite there yet with hardware(as the performance analysis showed)

This wasnt even a question directed at you. So I ask you again to stop commenting on it as again your flaming and moving this topic towards a lock(which I believe is your intention anyway)

Striker,

I agree with you I just tryed to come up with as many sources as possible and Nvidia in this case arent bashing"The Other Guy" this is there people presenting it to devs and reasons to it consider or not.

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Striker,

I agree with you I just tryed to come up with as many sources as possible and Nvidia in this case arent bashing"The Other Guy" this is there people presenting it to devs and reasons to it consider or not.

Thats ok, but this was 2004 if I remember right? GRIN is going to develop for the PS3 also. I think they don't want to change the whole lighting thing on the PS3 with nVidia gfx. They have also nVidia and ATI as tech partners (see credits). So I think only time will tell what the pros and cons of DL are.

Edited by Striker-1991
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