Tactics

[calius]

After getting over the eyecandy thing and looking past the jaggies, basicly getting over that stage (and for stop crying like a baby hehe ) and having a real good go at it over the past few hours I noticed some stong point for tactics.

The main thing was using waypoints & cover arcs were much better than the point & click commands.

My team would do much better in getting where they needed (or where i specificaly told them to go and aim in that direction) than if I pointed and selected "cover". When on the point click commands the team seem to be very general in terms of where they will go and where they will end up looking (sometimes the other way).

So ... next time you spark up the demo, have a go purely by using slow movements through areas and relying more on the waypoints (placing the in chains quite near to one another to make sure your team go in exact where you want em). I found it far more like GR1 and more satisfying with the control I had on most things.

Clearly when it gets heated and you need to point and click the team then that works ok as they know where to fire as they are staring at the enemy fireing at them.

Staggering your team executes is good. The large open area you first come to in the demo I found good for setting a cover comand with an arc of one man in one alley but tucked out of the way waiting to run it. Same for another team member in another alley and one following me. I would take a few pot shots to draw fire and then stagger execute on the other 2 team to run there cover arc moves (Raven Shield anyone!), worked a treat as then my man following me could run his waypoint id set but not executd to run like hell into a sandbag area to further lay down fire. No one got killed apart from enemy getting wiped and it was a real buzz, plus the fact all the distrations gave me time to land a nade into the gunners area and that was a super buzz!

Oh, talking of "following" ... unless you totaly sure no enemy are about I dont rely too much on that either. As we know yet again the team seem to hang back too far and then do there own thing a bit too much. Whereas with map and way points you can stagger your team through street areas and get them to cover areas exactly as you need them while you cut through and work around them.

I like to play like a chess board to be honest, makes you take it all in & move more professional around tight areas and certainly think a hell of alot more of how not to mess things up.

Map & Waypoints & covering arcs used more than point and click (unless under intense fire and no real way out) realy bring this back to its roots and running 2 staggered waypoint chains then using the headcam views to watch yer team mates work exactly how you need them puts the buzz back firmly for me now.

Another example, 2 enemy in a street with 2 entrances to it. I sent one man down an alley to cover an arc to the enemys right, another out to look down a street to there front position. Ran it with a slight delay between execution, sat back waching headcam and notices one tam member locate enemy but loose them. He then leant into the wall and peeked, I switch to another team member who also clocked the enemy and was facing exactly as I told him .. the great thing was to watch one kill one of the enemy, switch view and see the other pop out and peek and mow down a running enemy trying to sneak behind the car ... perfect execution! (in both senses of the phrase!).

If I did this by moving and then pointing and clicking I bet more than likely one would have strafed right out into the street before seeing them and BAM!

This isnt a post talking about bad AI, this is a post about getting down to brass tacs and using the tools strongest features. Untill I tried this properly the point and click just wast enough, sure you need to mix it up but you cant beat specific covering arcs and exact points on the map to get yer men right where YOU want them.

I also felt with urban and faster pace that using waypoints and arcs may become a bit old hat as pointing and click would work the best, but suprisingly it wasnt .. one of the things I always wondered about when GRAW was on its way "Just how will that work?" Ive found that it does suit many playing styles and mine worked rather well.

Final story (a my post is a bit long) :

Had a team member on a street corner, positioned as I wanted him. Then all of a sudden he spots a sniper and fires. Meanwhile im further down on the side of the sniper out of view but with another enemy pinging me back into a door area on the other side further down. I switched team mate to cover with an arc on sniper ... then set a waypoint for my other team mate not in the street to come down my side and then move down a side alley. I executed the cover command on team mate & then ran like hell to a vehicle (running and sliding in, love that) and layed down, executed other team mates waypoints to run across into alley. I then ran and joined him, my covering team mate pinged the sniper. I then waypointed that covering team mate to my old poision to cover the guy we hadnt got yet. Myself and my team mate i followed went back around the alley. I waypointed him to run out in the alley facing the general area. So .. with both my team mated covering fire I was kind of in the center of the 2 that were either side of joining streets & I came right up and pinged the enemy in the head .. super flank!

My point about that is, i could never have been as specific for cover and flanking without the waypoints. If i treid that pointing and clicking commands it would have been too messy.

The main points are :

You .. know where you want them so why not tell them, after all your the captain and if its game over because you die then surely you need to be precise.

You .. know where you left them in this way, so no wondering why they are in a place of no help what so ever when you next look up with bullets flying into your face.

You .. feel much more in control doing it this way.

You .. then have a tighter squad becuase your making them act the way you require them to.

The AI still stands as realy good because when you do work more in this way you then see the best in the AI when things get heated, but, the difference is you know if it goes belly up it was you that caused it, dont know about you but that makes me feel better.

People call it "micro managing things" ... but lets face it if you realy were in that situation for real and fully responsible, would you want to!?

This all may be obvious to others but anyone else who has some top tips .. fire em in

[CrowmanUK]

Top post mate, i've just been playing on the tactical map myself and found it way more precise than the middle mouse move over there somewhere type of commands, especially when you can see on the overhead map a small patrol and set up your guys either end of the street with covering arcs waiting for them to walk into the trap.

[capteenix]

nice one, but i want to add that by middle-mouse covering Ai mates will face that by covering from good cover: example i click forward, Ai find a cover behind acar and will cover that direction...in tacmap they GO there where you say them to cover...

And the reason why they stay far from you is that they use covers! i walked in open area they didnt come with me before i faced to open area, or another Ai faced there, only then they came to me. its called 360-protection i often fund my teammate when following staying behind me and covering my back bu in open area they need fullcover to come to you....360-proteciton tactics

[aCid]

if u have a 1900xtx not only can u enjoy the nice tactics and gameplay but all the eye candy jacked up

PS: ati drivers come with catalyst control centers to adjust the 3d settings, you CAN turn AA on to 16x and it WILL remove the jagged edges hardly putting the 1900xtx thru any extra work

this game simply; OWNS

[Strapt]

I could use the waypoint system in GR1, but haven't figured this one out yet. I can use the command map move here (with a firing arc) or cover (again with an arc), but at the mo I have to click several move chains together to get them to go where I want. The waypoint option just gives me a box with a distance. I use it to measure distances at the moment, so I can know how far to launch grenades

If I put a waypoint down (the yellow box with the distance marker), how do i get them to move to it without either using the move or cover commands? The command map works best for me as well, cos my team can be a bit random if I just point and say move here.

By random, I mean they will take it upon themselves to run round a corner and start a FF unless I put them on hold, so any waypoint advice would be helpful please.

I like to play it like a game of chess, too this is what makes it like original GR IMO.

[calius]

And the reason why they stay far from you is that they use covers! i walked in open area they didnt come with me before i faced to open area, or another Ai faced there, only then they came to me. its called 360-protection i often fund my teammate when following staying behind me and covering my back bu in open area they need fullcover to come to you....360-proteciton tactics

Dont get me wrong there is a point to most of it. But Imagine setting up your own 360 arch just how you would like it before you go in ... thats kind of what im refering too with the whole arc waypoints thing.

Another example is I just quit playing demo (again) ... and I quickly set a team mate to go by a wall to cover down street by point and clicking command, he did so which was good. Then he decided to move back away to another wall which I didnt realy want and in doing so actualy misses seeing a tango around the corner that I then got sprayed by. Again if I set a waypoint to that spot and then a view arc its seems more likely they will stick to it and hold out.

Certainy its more of a step by step process, but you can sit tight look at the map decide your moves, plot your points, arc your cover, get the team mates in position and then you make your own move.

Also I still notice that if it does get hairy the AI will still do its thing to best cope, but, they wont do that before it gets that way or anything to make it get that way which is great.

Id better mention im not sying THIS IS THE WAY AND NO OTHER (just incase) if you find any nifty ways and combos please post.

If I put a waypoint down (the yellow box with the distance marker), how do i get them to move to it without either using the move or cover commands?

.. maybe im confusing it but you just click "execute" or if you want to run al of you waypoints set for all members (if you have more than one set) then "execute all" - also these are under F keys.

EDIT ... I stated about using F keys to run waypoints outside of viewing map which is incorrect. Would love to have GRIN change it so you can use the f keys outside of the tactical map .. super flexible.

[ERIXX]

great post Calus, thats the way I play it! Theres so much room for innovation... thas immersion

[calius]

Another thread here spoke about the zones limited to where you can go as mitchell and where you get shouted at "you leaving the battle mitchell" and if you stay long enough you get a game over.

I found out (not that anyone else may have) that you still can send your team mates through roads on the map that you as mitchell cant (which is 50 50 on whether thats odd or not.

Heres an example from demo :

.. as you can see the zoned out area is where I cant go or its game over AWOL. But, I can waypoint my men .. this then opens up (for me at least) another flank postion that I thought I could not use becuase "I as mitchell am not allowed to use otherwise im leaving battle zone".

Could be an issue, but for tactics reasons dont think you cant send you other men to these areas, otherwise you might not use a clear flanking point, and this actualy is a realy good one out of the rest I tried.

Maybe its me missing something and others just use this already. I just think it can be off putting if your not using waypoints becuase if you have a team following you (and you play that way) you might not realise this and then go another way as you think no one can use it as its "out of zone".

Also highlighing that waypoints with teams still helps further in this situation

[Strapt]

Another thread here spoke about the zones limited to where you can go as mitchell and where you get shouted at "you leaving the battle mitchell" and if you stay long enough you get a game over.

I found out (not that anyone else may have) that you still can send your team mates through roads on the map that you as mitchell cant (which is 50 50 on whether thats odd or not.

Heres an example from demo :

.. as you can see the zoned out area is where I cant go or its game over AWOL. But, I can waypoint my men .. this then opens up (for me at least) another flank postion that I thought I could not use becuase "I as mitchell am not allowed to use otherwise im leaving battle zone".

Could be an issue, but for tactics reasons dont think you cant send you other men to these areas, otherwise you might not use a clear flanking point, and this actualy is a realy good one out of the rest I tried.

Maybe its me missing something and others just use this already. I just think it can be off putting if your not using waypoints becuase if you have a  team following you (and you play that way) you might not realise this and then go another way as you think no one can use it as its "out of zone".

Also highlighing that waypoints with teams still helps further in this situation

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Yes! That's exactly the route I was trying to describe Thanks. I'd assumed that the game would end if anyone goes down there.

[calius]

Same here mate, I just tested it out before I posted here. Its a great flanking point for a clear shot with 3 men. Then you come up the other way and pop a few caps

Also when the other vehicle arrives (slight spoiler) ... you are facing them with lots of cover .

[Strapt]

I've been pressing the B key for all its worth and nothing seems to happen. Is this drone thing just going to be a feature that you can use when the game says so, then?

Also, what decides whether enemies show up on cross com/your normal view red diamond? Is it your teamates eyes or their head cam? I've seen guys blatantly in the road and my team don't seem to see them, so they dont shoot.

I definitely need to be able to spot for my team, even if it means opening the map and putting a marker on there to say danger here or stay out of sight. I'm meant to be the team leader. In real life if the team leader was trying to set up an attack and one of the team decided nah forget this i'll do it my way then ran off and started shooting, there'd be hell to pay.

On the one hand, the demo has shown a very good methodical approach, but there still needs to be a don't shoot yet unless you have to option, don't you think?

[calius]

Yeh like GR1 "recon" .. IE spot but do nothing.

Good point. Although on the other hand its urban setting ... so 9/10 times when your man has seen a tango hes already spotted you and need to fire.

Not sure if you notice this .. but if you zooooom in as far as you can on your real time map you WILL see tangos in place ahead of time. They are full body representations moving. I asked the question "why can you see them on the map before you have even got to that area?". I think its a case of a sattelite view on map so positions are pre monitored and thats why you can if you look hard enough see them so you can plan you attack (already knowing areas of where tangos are before you set your moves).

Diamonds come into play where your "Directly in the fight zone" so you can fine-point there position in that area in your FOV and then take a decent shot.

Maybe this is for this part of the game/demo and its not the same in other areas on full version, some of what you ask is only aswered by full game realy.

It must be the head cam that feeds diamond your you view. From what I see you are the one with cross com that sees diamonds not your team. They have head cameras that pick that up and feeds that to you. If you look at the helicopter insert everyone has a headcamera and shades over eyes.

Land on insertion, switch to a team members head camera and move yourself infront to look at yourself ... your the only one with the Cross com monitor.

[Strapt]

Yeh like GR1 "recon" .. IE spot but do nothing.

Good point. Although on the other hand its urban setting ... so 9/10 times when your man has seen a tango hes already spotted you and need to fire.

Not sure if you notice this .. but if you zooooom in as far as you can on your real time map you WILL see tangos in place ahead of time. They are full body representations moving. I asked the question "why can you see them on the map before you have even got to that area?". I think its a case of a sattelite view on map so positions are pre monitored and thats why you can if you look hard enough see them so you can plan you attack (already knowing areas of where tangos are before you set your moves).

Maybe this is for this part of the game/demo and its not the same in other areas on full version, some of what you ask is only aswered by full game realy.

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K, then. But for those 1/10 times... like when the guys back is to you i'd like them to do nothing so we can fall back and go a different way. I havn't seen an opportunity to actually do this in the demo yet, but there's surely gonna be one in the full game.

Sometimes they say "tango spotted" when I can't see anything and i'm there goin "where?!, where?!, sh**! ######!! quick! quick!" If they can see the tango, that must mean that the head cam was pointing right at the enemy. Shouldn't it show up in the tac map then? It doesn't always.

I'm assuming the targeting thing pretty much designates anything moving that isn't a team member a threat. Maybe there wasn't a way to seperate friendlies (i.e. normal city dwellers) from tangoes, so they left them out so that we dont have to suffer game over every 5min.

[calius]

Shouldn't it show up in the tac map then? It doesn't always.

For demo at least enemy is always on teh tac map even before time. (I updated my post before yours adding that).

Move to an area and scan your tac map. zoom in and have a look, you will eventualy see enemy wandering around patrol zones before you have even reached that area. Good for planning your aproach.

As far as im concered its all becuase of intell that you have this info at desposal. How you aproach it and deal with it IS the gameplay.

[silent_op]

I absolultely agree with the use of the Tactical Map over the point and click move options. I was getting very annoyed at the way the Ghost AI would seem to act very sloppy, but then I used the Tactical Map and I use it most of the time now. It is the only way to move with any real confidence.

This is only the Demo, but I hope it can be addressed:

- As far as movement tactics go, their should be a "Recon" option when sending your Ghost AI out. I don't want them starting fights until I order it. If they are engaged first, then fine.

- The Ghosts will cross your line of fire when executing your commands. More than once I've tried to put down cover fire for the team while moving them via their Tactical Map waypoints. Someone always has to cross point blank in front of my firing gun. Clearly they need to move behind me.

Learn how to use the Tactical Map for all that it can offer now. If we find enough things to adjust, Maybe GRIN will be able to address them.

However if I were playing this with a proper CO-OP number (or just CO-OP internet), none of this would be a problem. I'm not a Single Player mode fan, just when I'm alone.

silent_op

[spotH3D]

Zoom in with the map, you can even see those ###### roof top snipers.

[buddhiraja73]

Good thread Calius.

We wanted a thinking man's shooter and we have got it. Now is the time to enjoy it, appreciate it and utilize the tools given, to the fullest, for a great tactical experience.

I would like to add my thoughts on the cross-com commands, which I have found to be very very useful. Some people have had problems while using this but my experience is a bit different.

One thing I have found necessary, while using the cross-com commands, is to choose the entire Ghost team ( choosen by default ) and give them a 'stop' command. Then choose an individual Ghost by scrolling down and give him a 'move' and/or 'cover' command. He carries out his orders quite ok. If the 'stop' command is not given initially then the whole team changes positions, when one of them is moved, to maintain a formation.

The quick commands are very very useful when the enemies are threatening us and there is no time to go to the tac map. I would request the developers to improve this aspect even further and also allow the keys to be used for this along with the mouse.

Ofcourse, the tac-map is a great tool which I have come to love as well, but that has been discussed in great detail.

[calius]

Nice combo with using "stop".

Seems realy abvious to use doesnt it, but when your playing its hidden in that command menu you do need to get used to issuing the commands etc.

Seems to be .. tac-map to apply approach toward and upto a hot spot and get your men in good fire / cover positions and nudge up the map piece by piece. Work out entry points to a area with many open spots & plan your team flanking. Then when tangos are spotted refer to the quick commands if required to do some on-the-fly position swapping if tango's flank or you need to do so in a hurry.

I think the Team AI are realy good in this version at the stage of initiating a firefight as you know that they will do there best to suppress and nail enemy once they are "spotted" and the firing kicks off. You can be alot more confident once you have placed them how YOU want and then it all goes down that you team AI will do a decent enough job.

[EricJ]

I have to agree. Employ them and plan right, you can get through some tight spots quickly