9/11

[calius]

@all - Interesting news today...video showing OBL with some of the 9/11 hijackers just prior to 9/11. I guess as we near the anniversay of 9/11 2001...the CIA has to throw the conspiracy theorists a bone for them to pick apart and criticize...

LOL as I just posted before you ... I would say something different. I would say its been released to re-affirm the offical line and keep the sheep in-line. Nothing if not pradictable. Im not interested in the footage, it tells us nothing at all. Bottom line why sit on it untill now ... pointless, or is it?

[FA sear]

Looks like WK beat me to the punch.

Here is another link to a HUGE WMD find.

1,500 Gallons of chemicals, YES 1,500 GALLONS!

I've not really been following this thread, but from what I gather the question here is whether Saddam had WMD's or not before we invaded. IF that is the case, then this article is irrelevant:

Your statement of irrelevance is quite simply wrong. Remember that part of the arguements that people keep bringing up is that Iraq neither had nor has the capability of producing WMDs. Remember the cries that said Iraq does not have them, and since the first Gulf War their capability to produce them either no longer exists, or had been reduced to the point of making it insignificant.

This proves Iraq STILL has the capability to produce WMDs.

[dickie]

This proves Iraq STILL has the capability to produce WMDs.

It proves no such thing. For a start, as Saddam's regime is no longer in power, so 'Iraq' now would have to mean the current Western-supported government - who would have no interest in WMDs or the ability to develop them, as they are struggling to maintain any sort of control at all at the moment. The people who are behind the current violence (and those chemical weapons) are the insurgents, who although some of them may be Iraqi nationals (and former members of Saddam's government), are mostly foreign nationals, and supported, supplied and funded by outside countries or organisations. They are the ones who currently have the chemical weapons in Iraq (and presumably elsewhere), and the drive to find even more devastating methods of killings large numbers of people, not 'Iraq' itself.

(I have to go to work now, so I won't be able to respond to anything till at least tomorrow morning, so take your time guys!)

[FA sear]

This proves Iraq STILL has the capability to produce WMDs.

It proves no such thing. For a start, as Saddam's regime is no longer in power, so 'Iraq' now would have to mean the current Western-supported government - who would have no interest in WMDs or the ability to develop them, as they are struggling to maintain any sort of control at all at the moment. The people who are behind the current violence (and those chemical weapons) are the insurgents, who although some of them may be Iraqi nationals (and former members of Saddam's government), are mostly foreign nationals, and supported, supplied and funded by outside countries or organisations. They are the ones who currently have the chemical weapons in Iraq (and presumably elsewhere), and the drive to find even more devastating methods of killings large numbers of people, not 'Iraq' itself.

(I have to go to work now, so I won't be able to respond to anything till at least tomorrow morning, so take your time guys!)

Dickie, It looks like your work schedule is exactly opposite of mine. I only log in here from work, so here I am this morning.

I see what you are saying, but does Iraq's ability to produce WMDs disappear with the removal of Saddam? Would that not be like saying since the communist regime in the USSR is now gone, Russia must no longer be able to produce nukes. I don't think I can agree with that scenario.

[Ruin]

<--- Steals spotlight...

Does anyone know of any 9/11 remembrances that are going on in the DC area? I'd like to attend, but I don't know where or when anything is.

[Guest]

<--- Steals spotlight...

Does anyone know of any 9/11 remembrances that are going on in the DC area? I'd like to attend, but I don't know where or when anything is.

Go into town on any Saturday in DC and you'll find SOME sort of demonstration:) Should be in the newspaper though.

Oh, and if anybody wants to know why the Western world is such at odds with Islam, then you should read some of Thomas L. Friedman's reporting for the New York Times. He's got a documentary on Discovery Times Channel too (also on On-Demand) and it is very informative. There are alot of arab newspapers and websites who publish that 9/11 was somehow contrived by the Americans. Many people even believe that jews were called on 9/10 and told not to go to work. It's amazing what people will believe.

It's amazing what a little introspection and education will do for the Middle East.

Edited September 8, 2006 by durka-durka*BDA*

[dickie]

I see what you are saying, but does Iraq's ability to produce WMDs disappear with the removal of Saddam? Would that not be like saying since the communist regime in the USSR is now gone, Russia must no longer be able to produce nukes. I don't think I can agree with that scenario.

That's a completely different scenario, without the Communist regime, Russia is still a sovereign country with all the resources and funding of a full nation-state. In Iraq, the insurgents and remnants of the Saddam regime are not. The statement that 'Iraq' can still produce these weapons is incorrect, the state of Iraq can not afford it, nor could they organise such a program with all their other problems. The insurgents and terrorists however are not exclusively from Iraq, they have made it clear they are seeking to acquire the weapons for use in Iraq elsewhere. My point is that yes, they have been found geographically in Iraq to be used there, but they are funded, and possibly obtained and produced, elsewhere, as well as being used by people not from Iraq itself. Therefore, chemical weapons such as that hide are part of a completely different scenario and set of events.

[edit]

Oh, and if anybody wants to know why the Western world is such at odds with Islam

The Western world is not at odds with Islam. We are at odds with terrorists who wish to impose their skewed and twisted form of Islam upon us.

[Xian Saint]

@Calius specifically - but for all to ponder,

Curious about your thoughts on how the media and all of their biases are involved with the corruption of the world...is the media in the pocket of those truly in power...?

The reason I ask is when Fahrenheit 9/11 came out...there was minor discord over the movie which has proven to have verifiable flaws and inaccurate data, yet the movie was still praised by many.

Now, there is a new series called Path to 9/11 which spotlights the blunders made by the administrations of Clinton (8 years) and Bush (8 months) leading up to 9/11. From what I've read and heard, the Path to 9/11 series is totally unbiased and provides a truly independent (if that's even possible) perspective of all of the shortcomings that occurred during both administrations...well obviously since Clinton was in office for much longer, a lot of people on that side of the fence are up in arms over it and calling for the network to boycott the show.

Now, this treads close to a "political discussion" but I think it's more of a history lesson... Regardless...I'm not concerned with the politics behind it...I'm concerned with the media bias in this instance (and many others).

In summary, you have a truly biased and politically slanted film that gets praised and you have a neutral yet honest film that gets ridiculed and boycotted...

If the media's job is to report the facts...why is there such concern over this...they have to be involved somehow, or so one would imagine...

Thoughts?

[calius]

It's amazing what people will believe.

Its also amazing what people choose not to look at too without even considering it as an option.

The Western world is not at odds with Islam. We are at odds with terrorists who wish to impose their skewed and twisted form of Islam upon us.

Id go further to say no one is at odds with anyone until a certain set of bad apples of a group (add your label here: Goverment bad boys / lone groups / controlled groups) stir up trouble in any group/form/country/society. Those few dont speak for the many who just want to get on becuase they have no reason not too. Again the divide and rule aproach seems to still work like a charm.

@Xaint - I would say that yes alot of media outlets are owned for sure. There are still those out there not in-the-pocket as it were and they are independant (investigative journalism) they but not all are usualy demonised or scoffed at in the corner as "alternative" and the age old classic if it doesnt fit the hym sheet "Conspiracy Theorists" alot get threats too (nothing to hide so why threaten?).

Farrenheit 9/11 was perfect as it did nothing to question anything realy important, all it did was have a laugh at bush (thats hard) and completely distract from any true unanswered questions of that day hence the fact it was allowed to go through, it went just far enough but could have been alot more than it was. It was taken well because of the slight comedy slant on bush. Sounds like path to 9/11 will be more looking at facts and thats not what people want and reasons why they are up in arms I guess though I havent seen much about it apart from a few reports. Mind you, something focusing on blunders of both presidence yet again is a distraction as thats nothing to do with 9/11 itself and moves the focus away (well timed of course - my view). If anyone thinks it stops at the president and thats who's to blame in any shape or form should realy start checking things out more.

For example, could you ever see any of these documentaries (linked in this thread and elsewhere) put on T.V? No way ... that would get people thinking outside the offical line and clearly thats a bad thing.

EDIT : Just checked this link to "path to 9/11" ... its a drama with harvey Keitel ... load of poop then - http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=path_nine

[Sup]

Quick note: Please, on both sides, cite more impartial sources. WK, Fox News is widely known to be biased towards the side of our current administration, and Calius, the sites you're posting are even worse. Nobody's going to believe 'conspiracy weekly' is posting valid information.

This is strongly reminding me of a Israel debate I saw a while back where every post included either Palestinian or Jerusalem based news sources.

[pz3]

What always gets me about iraq. Is the freaking al qaeda terrorists bomb making.

Let me explain. Army gets tip while on patrol. Army enters house. Brand new metal detectors explosives etc..... all the detectors are used in most major airports. Another 9/11 in the process.

@xiansaint.

Most mass medias bias is clear. Watch them closely and you see them frolic in their headlines and dont give a crap about the story. They try pitting conflicts to the adminstration and blaming it for just about everything if possible. Im not sure if you guys have ever been asked by news groups random questions on the street but their not trying to get your opinion usually. They are trying to ask you questions in a way to fit their agenda. Its what they want you to say. that they will use on air.

Prime example there was a stabbing. Man stabbing people chased one man out of a store into a parking lot. Theyr running in circles while another man who just parked going into work saw this grabbed his pistol in his truck confronted the knifeman and stopped the attack. Knifeman just threw down his weapon and waited for the cops.

Almost no news stations covered this and the majority that did they didnt once mention a word about the civilian stopping the crime instead of police.

why??? most news networks are liberal (no offence to any liberals) A major part of the left are antigun. Guns are bad so how could a gun do somthing good you know?

Im rambling now...... If mass media can lie and get away with it any of these "documentaries" can and will lie aswell.

Take a look at world trade centers structure. Find unedited videos of the building falling and you can clearly see and hear what happens. There were no explosives.

[calius]

cite more impartial sources

In this world mate you will find that hard to do, Id say look at both and make your own judgement, the only thing that can be impartial is your own brain in the end. Could you give me your view on an impartial source please?

and Calius, the sites you're posting are even worse. Nobody's going to believe 'conspiracy weekly' is posting valid information.

Nobody? - Thats a sweeping statement isnt it, thats your view. MANY sources and an overall view is best, just becuase some sites dont fit what you want or would seem more respectable thats still not a reason to ignore them completely even if some it can seem "worse" in your eyes.

Im not posting to convince you (make people believe) im 100 percent right or they are, its all important to look at to filter & to reference, though most wont bother to look, scawn / close down and attack (not refering to you here sup, just generaly). I could link to the BBC all day if you wish and I assume that would be acceptable in some way. Also if you notice alot of my links arent always from, as you put it - 'conspiracy weekly' but then that closed off comment is to be expected I guess.

Also FYI I visit the BBC site all the time and look at the news, also US news, then I look at other sites to get a view that way too, so to get a balance on what they both are seeing and reporting then then best judge certain things. Ive posted many times im not a conpiracy junkie, there are plenty of idiots in that area too. The main thing to be happy about is that your aware of that fact so you know your not getting duped down one single path.

Find unedited videos of the building falling and you can clearly see and hear what happens. There were no explosives.

- Prove it. Building 7 .... say no more.

I would though suggest wading through this thread and find the link to 9/11 eye-witness, because oddly enough thats un-edited footage and you can hear explosions (exactly what they are is debatable but again to know it needs investigating and hasnt) & radio reports of "bombs going off" .. you cant get much unedited than a camera rolling through the whole event stationary across the water with the full length of the towers in view.

I still find it amazing how someone can flatly state this based on what information is around regarding explosions from people who were actualy there. I would suggest being more open to the idea even if the idea doesnt sit right with you. I dont want to think there were or that it wasnt anything more than offical story but im afraid I am having to keep both views on the table with this becuase as said from day one for me .. its just not as it was told.

If mass media can lie and get away with it any of these "documentaries" can and will lie aswell.

This is very true. Although 9/11 eyewitness is just showing what happened as it happened and without overly highlighting much it just shows these things which need to be investagted further and have not. Theres no lies in first hand eyewitness reports from that moment thats for damn sure. Also documentaries spoon fed to convince arent the best thing either, they are part of an information source.

[calius]

Just thought Id mention out of respects to those who passed that day and innocently got caught in this mess regardless of views they certainly wont be forgotten.

Its 11:00 PM UK time and 1 hour untill sept 11th 2006. As I need to go sleep I thought I pre-empt the day and post a message as a mark of respect for them poor folks who never made it that day. Thoughts are to them & family members specificaly.

RIP.

[pz3]

*edit* why should I try to prove anything on building 7?

Go find satalite photos half the building facing WTC towers was badly damaged.

All unedited videos of WTC1 WTC2 falling showed the inner supports gaveway then the outsupports fold under pressure.

There are hundreds of new york city firefighters who heard nothing and there are a ton of videos of what happened. From blocks away and even a couple near the base of the buildings.

Firefighters in interviews afterwards say they heard no explosions.... why? They must bee lieing..... Obviously the explosions were so big they made markings with the USGS?????

Simple its true.

They arent goverment pawns they are people. None of them would say that it didnt happen if it did. Losing fellow firefighters unless they were sick people or took cash knowing their buddies died in the collapse and didnt give a care?

---------------

Im not sure if you really understand how loud Plastic explosives are. You would not only hear them during a collapse but most likely see the bright flashes aswell. They are loud bright and everything else. It would be probly the loudest sound even before the building started falling.

No videos have the rapid succesion of noises to prove an implosion took place.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Prozac360

[pz3]

some good unedited videos if you havent seen them

Building 7 was on fire. Lots of smoke. Notice the firefighter says thats why he pulled everyone out of there. Its firefighter slang not demolition. Pull it: pull the hoses and men.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=58...wtc+7&hl=en

View of 7 collapsing.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=84...wtc+7&hl=en

WTC2 fall. Unedited.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...+fall&hl=en

My own find in a video. Cant remember wich video it was thoe. The column fell slowly right but the video ended. Ill try and find it again. Was also unedited other then the clipping.

Iv seen a couple dozen clips looking for these videos where the videos are even edited! Bad Aftereffects and sounds included in the same clips posted above. Propaganda? think so?

Pathetic excuses of people thoes ones are.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Prozac360

[pz3]

Other buildings beeing demolished.... Sound the same? not at all. Look the same? not really either.

A Good WTC7 video could put this to rest. Ill keep looking for one. Thoes firefighters seem to be the best angle so far.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...ition&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=64...ition&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...ition&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=69...ition&hl=en

Edited September 11, 2006 by Prozac360

[pz3]

Okay now im through with this thread.

I originaly started it to try and get the security camera videos. After starting this thread I got a job where I actually operate security cameras and to be honest cameras over a mile away are worthless unless they are zoomed in on that specific part wich isnt part of regulare operating procedures to have them zoom in all the time. Even then their cursed with motion bluring from the wind.

Next..... Watching the video it had me going I beleived it was almost true. Untill I did my own research and came to my own conclusions wich pretty much matched the official story.

So GL to everyone

Hopefully you dont get suckered into conspiracy videos and do some actual research of your own.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Prozac360

[Papa6]

@Prozac this whole IRAQ thing is a scham. WE Gave Saddam chemical weapons(1980's)..knowing he was using them on kurds, Iraqis and iranians. we used Saddam until we had no use for him. We were his ally. we did it to noriega(sp?) back in the late 80's. how do I know? i was alerted 3/4 of the time I was in FT Campbell to go down to Panama and get him out! after i got reassigned to Germany, my buddies went back down there and got him

Added: at the same time, we were giving aid to the Iranians (Hint: the iran/contra scandal) so we use governments and people as we saw fit.

There's NO war on terror, No WMD...this is a huge scham..sorry while i laugh myself to sleep

Edited September 11, 2006 by Papa6

[pz3]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

Doesnt matter everyone beleived he was after WMDs. Read that whole page its pretty intreasting.

There is a war on terror. Most people dont understand it. Its not about military vs military. A diffrent type of war.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Prozac360

[calius]

Notice the firefighter says thats why he pulled everyone out of there. Its firefighter slang not demolition. Pull it: pull the hoses and men

I agree but thats confusing Larry Silvertiens WTC7 actualy admition to pull the building. Clearly you dont see it the same, fair enough I dont blame you Prozac. I stated prove it IE: WE were both not there that day that moment so to state there "cannot" be something to me seems far too definate to state such a fact thats all. These reports and audio captures cant simply be ignored as not existing so all on the table.

Papa6 though I guess off-topic rears its head (so many tenticles to this its hard sometimes) you hit the nail on the head. Though dont laugh yourself to sleep its good to have people awake

Untill I did my own research and came to my own conclusions wich pretty much matched the official story.

Fair enough.

Hopefully you dont get suckered into conspiracy videos and do some actual research of your own.

Im hoping your saying that find out more for your own views, rather than if its a video deamed "conspiracy" then they are built to sucker you into something (which is a very general view and in theory would mean anything other than an offical video), because that has its own agenda tagged to it which is slightly unfair. If not then what your saying is what im saying, though these videos all help with information about it though not the be-all-and-end-all.

(though offical sources still make me laugh with some explination .. passport unscathed, bloke in cave controling everything never been found, men with box cutters foiling Norad etc).

Doesnt matter everyone beleived he was after WMDs

It does matter because what you believe is key so people thought what they were told & believed something that was span beyond what it was in reality, which is wrong.

There is a war on terror.

Yep there is, but mainly from the government and TV telling you there is. Terrorists are nothing new, its the latest package for fear factor (check out links to the BBC2 doc I linked a few pages back to give an idea).

Most people dont understand it. Its not about military vs military. A diffrent type of war.

Yeh one which will never be won by anyone because the bogeymen dont have a face, perfect. Dont worry though as slow but sure your own personal freedoms will be stamped on as a result of this.

[pz3]

Voice overs,sounds added, music to set the mood, Anything and everything but raw video with clipping is complete garbage and a waste of time.

Its sad.... If your looking for the truth but some guy in a video is telling you what to beleive? Are you really looking for it?

A lot of the stuff going around is a joke....

[calius]

Voice overs,sounds added, music to set the mood, Anything and everything but raw video with clipping is complete garbage and a waste of time.

Theres plenty of clips unedited Prozac, you seem to be stuck on just audio and bombs thats only PART of what doesnt add up with the way the towers are completely destroyed.

Its sad.... If your looking for the truth but some guy in a video is telling you what to beleive? Are you really looking for it?

I dont want to sound like im repeating myself, or your not reading what im typing but videos arent the complete answer. Many sources of information are better then a few videos. Though your right in a way I cant believe how people will just accept TV's version on things, thats also someone telling you what to believe, though for some strange reason thats ok.

A lot of the stuff going around is a joke....

Alot but not everything or all of it.

Also I will dig out a very short but sweet clip of a person with a camera very close to the towers as it fell, un edited etc etc. You will see that like a flickering christmas tree flashes are going off in various parts of the building as its crumbling, which, if shown as if it wasnt one of the twin towers simply is a builing being demolshed with cutter charges being set off. Though once its told as it is a twin tower most will FIND a reason to explain it away. I will get a link setup very soon. Its one of the best clips ive seen to give a good example. Im not looking for the flashed when I saw it, I just played it back a few times and was ... "what the hell? ... that looks nothing more that smal explosions going off" .. without trying to convince myself of it.

Im happy for it to be picked apart so thats why I will link it, need to sniff about for it before Ican up the little fella.

[pz3]

what is more solid evidence then video other then physical evidence? If I recall all that was hauled off to the dump... so back to videos.

Find me some better stuff to support your claims then? Why not video of it near base level where explosive could easly be heard without any editing?

WTC7 seemed to be ingulfed in flames.

Im asking a sprinkler man I know that installs sprinklers for highrises this question tomarow.

What could causes a Sprinkler system to fail?

Getting a job with a construction company too soon doing highrises.... maybe ill get to ask some engineers then about it? would be nice ya?

Edited September 11, 2006 by Prozac360

[Hammer]

WE WONT FORGET 9/11

REST IN PEACE

[Colin]

Another year has passed today, for all who lost and remember their loved ones I am with you in thought and prayer.